BNA losers club - 2015

[Aussiebullet]

Sorry my bad I thought you meant eating 800 - 1500cal, yeh I'm the same, I can handle those deficits well when not doing any HIT.

[CKinnard]

hang on, yes I meant eating as little as 800 Calories when on retreats...and not feeling hungry or weak.
After a week, I had to force myself to sit and eat more than 800, knowing that I was losing too much lean tissue.

On 800 Cal intake, that would be around a 1200 Cal deficit when retreating. But that level causes too much lean tissue loss due to being too low under BMR. Even so, I was not ravenous or thinking about food all the time.

[Aussiebullet]

Got it. And I get what your saying about relaxing and not feeling ravenous, When I'm doing a big taper before big event's and not training much for the last 7 - 10 days and just chilling out going to the movies etc, so long as I don't surround myself with food my appetite diminishes fairly quickly.

[casual_cyclist]

The point I'm making is that I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when relaxed. When working or stressed ,it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one.
This underscores how much eating is influenced by stress.

For me it is sleep. When I feel tired, I eat to try to stay awake. I am also almost certain to eat sugary junk food. I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when I have had adequate sleep. When I am tired, it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one. This underscores how much eating is influenced by tiredness.

No wonder the caffeine fuelled, overtired, stressed out office workers are so fat. They have no hope.

[anttismo]

I don't know how you guys can stick to a monthly weigh-in schedule.

I'm coming from a data gathering and analysis profession, where the variability of measurements is a big deal. I weigh myself most days, and the number on the scales fluctuates by ±1kg depending on all sorts of things (mostly hydration and recent activity level - I think muscles retain a bit of fluid if they've been working, but like all fluids, you wee it out after a while). It would suck to weigh in on a "light" day, put in a good month, lose a whole kilo, then weigh in on a "heavy" day that shows me having gained a kilo.

I guess you just need to be mindful that whatever number shows on your monthly weigh-in, your actual repeatable weight is really somewhere within a ~2kg band spread around the number you measured. You really need a run-chart to pick a meaningful trend out of the fluctuations.

tim

A big secrect to looking at these things for me personally was to think long term. Back when I dropped form 200+ to 100kg I weighed myself daily. Indeed, the loss occured over 18 months but I continued to weigh myself daily for many years afterward. For about 6 months in the middle there I lost over 2kg a week so to the loss is easy to track even daily. But just rememeber there is that +/- 1 kg daily noise over the top. I have been 3kg up one day, 3 kg down the next. So you need to learn to not become fixated on days, or even weeks. Really for long term weight loss it matters where you are in 3 or 6 or 12 months, no so much week to week, let alone day to day

I like to ponder the psycological result of excercise and daily weighing. You do a couple of hr work out, get down on fluids, weigh yourself next day and think you have lost 1 kg. Go to the pub, eat a huge dinner, and think you have gained 2 kg. Of course, neither of these things are really possible. Yet people correlate transinet behaviours and transient results with real results. And the result reinforce wierd beliefs they have. I'll tell anybody, do whatever you are doing for a few months and see what happens. Make an adjustment, do it for a few more months, and review again. Over the course of a month you can start to resolve differences. Over 3 months for sure. weigh yoyurself everyday if you like, but learning the self control to ignore transients shorter the 1 month is almost impossible for most.

[CKinnard]

The point I'm making is that I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when relaxed. When working or stressed ,it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one.
This underscores how much eating is influenced by stress.

For me it is sleep. When I feel tired, I eat to try to stay awake. I am also almost certain to eat sugary junk food. I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when I have had adequate sleep. When I am tired, it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one. This underscores how much eating is influenced by tiredness.

No wonder the caffeine fuelled, overtired, stressed out office workers are so fat. They have no hope.

yeah but!!! are you mistaking fatigue for stress! I know I do...how? because late afternoon I can feel like I can't keep my eyes open at work, or am too tired to use good grammar with one more demanding client....but then, if a mate calls at that time and says let's get out for a ride after work, the energy comes from nowhere! or when you go to the doctor, and you walk in feeling heavy and tired and down....and you come out feeling 30kg lighter with a spring in your step!

[casual_cyclist]

The point I'm making is that I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when relaxed. When working or stressed ,it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one.
This underscores how much eating is influenced by stress.

For me it is sleep. When I feel tired, I eat to try to stay awake. I am also almost certain to eat sugary junk food. I am absolutely comfortable on a Calorie deficit when I have had adequate sleep. When I am tired, it is so much harder to stay on a deficit, even a modest one. This underscores how much eating is influenced by tiredness.
No wonder the caffeine fuelled, overtired, stressed out office workers are so fat. They have no hope.

yeah but!!! are you mistaking fatigue for stress! I know I do...how? because late afternoon I can feel like I can't keep my eyes open at work, or am too tired to use good grammar with one more demanding client....but then, if a mate calls at that time and says let's get out for a ride after work, the energy comes from nowhere! or when you go to the doctor, and you walk in feeling heavy and tired and down....and you come out feeling 30kg lighter with a spring in your step!

Yeah, but, no. I'm tired. Very, very tired. Last year (same job) I was fine. Going to bed around midnight and getting up at 8. This year I have been going to bed at 2 am or 3 am every morning (or as late as 4 am ) and getting up at 8 to drag myself into work. I have been doing this for 6 weeks and I AM TIRED!!!

Last year I was running 3 times a week after work. Now I barely have the energy to drag myself home on the bike after work. I got a run in yesterday, but that was only because I had Monday off and slept half the day (literally, not figuratively)

P.S. my job didn't suddenly get stressful. It's a very cruisy job. I was fine when going to bed around midnight.

P.P.S you don't want to know how much caffeine I am drinking to stay awake (actually, I don't want to know myself)

P.P.P.S you can say bye, bye to weight loss if you refuse to sleep. It won't happen.

[casual_cyclist]

weigh yoyurself everyday if you like, but learning the self control to ignore transients shorter the 1 month is almost impossible for most.

I have weighed myself twice this year. I must be the possible minority.

[tcdev]

I like to ponder the psycological result of excercise and daily weighing. You do a couple of hr work out, get down on fluids, weigh yourself next day and think you have lost 1 kg. Go to the pub, eat a huge dinner, and think you have gained 2 kg. Of course, neither of these things are really possible. Yet people correlate transinet behaviours and transient results with real results. And the result reinforce wierd beliefs they have. I'll tell anybody, do whatever you are doing for a few months and see what happens. Make an adjustment, do it for a few more months, and review again. Over the course of a month you can start to resolve differences. Over 3 months for sure. weigh yoyurself everyday if you like, but learning the self control to ignore transients shorter the 1 month is almost impossible for most.

I weigh myself (almost) daily - some days I forget - but I am also fully aware of the transients and have seen swings of up to 2-3kg depending on diet and exercise. Of course it's the long term trend that is important - I just find daily weighings to be part of the motivation, in that it keeps reminding me of my goals and a record low still feels good even if involves a few kg of lost fluid.

[PatNZ]

Currently 103 KGs aim to hit 90 kgs by the years end.

Weighed myself today. 98kgs. So it looks like some progress I think. Still a long way to go to 90.

[Gunlock]

17/02/2015: 84.4kg.
20/02/2015: 83.7kg. Probably a couple of hundred grams back on in fluid intake after my weigh in this morning - woke up pretty thirsty.

[CKinnard]

Yeah, but, no. I'm tired. Very, very tired. Last year (same job) I was fine. Going to bed around midnight and getting up at 8. This year I have been going to bed at 2 am or 3 am every morning (or as late as 4 am ) and getting up at 8 to drag myself into work. I have been doing this for 6 weeks and I AM TIRED!!!
..
P.P.P.S you can say bye, bye to weight loss if you refuse to sleep. It won't happen.

wahhh?! why do you stay up so late?
whatever the reason, at least you must understand why you are tired, which is better than having chronic fatigue syndrome and having no idea.
I've always found a good way to break a habit like this is to exercise first thing in the morning. It will make you a lot more tired in the evenings, and less inclined to stay up.
It also pays to think about the cons of staying up late. It ages your body faster than anything else, as anabolic repair processes are heavily compromised.

[T0M11]

Still stuck at 89kg. Haven't been riding since I have been busy. About to begin night riding to fit it in around Uni.

[casual_cyclist]

Yeah, but, no. I'm tired. Very, very tired. Last year (same job) I was fine. Going to bed around midnight and getting up at 8. This year I have been going to bed at 2 am or 3 am every morning (or as late as 4 am ) and getting up at 8 to drag myself into work. I have been doing this for 6 weeks and I AM TIRED!!!
..
P.P.P.S you can say bye, bye to weight loss if you refuse to sleep. It won't happen.

wahhh?! why do you stay up so late?

Who knows? I have been a night owl all my life and my brother is the same. Genetic?

whatever the reason, at least you must understand why you are tired, which is better than having chronic fatigue syndrome and having no idea.
I've always found a good way to break a habit like this is to exercise first thing in the morning. It will make you a lot more tired in the evenings, and less inclined to stay up.

I do exercise first thing in the morning. It's not about not being tired. It's a personal choice and I should choose to go to bed earlier. For March, I should try to be asleep by 11 every night for a month. See if I feel better after that.

It also pays to think about the cons of staying up late. It ages your body faster than anything else, as anabolic repair processes are heavily compromised.

I can tell you call about the cons. Mood, appetite, energy, metabolism, recovery time after exercise.

Seriously though, if you want to dig a little deeper, this article is a good summary of the psycology of saying up late. I usually fit into the Weekday: 12:29 am -7:52 am, Weekend: 1:44 am -11:07 am category. This year is not my usual. These sum up how I feel about it:

The data supports the notion that all night owls feel: the only real time for living is after everyone’s gone to bed.

The night is for testing your limits and challenging yourself. It’s for discovering those passions you suppress all day and breaking down all those rules your parents made to protect you.

Staying up late has been, and always will be, an act of rebellion. A defiance of the nine-to-five, the very habit of staying up late is revolutionary.

http://elitedaily.com/life/culture/nigh ... nt/686025/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's definitely me. That said, I have been pushing it a bit too hard lately and need to pull it back to a more reasonable time. Anything before midnight is an early night for me but if I set my alarm for 8, that's a reasonable night's sleep.

[singlespeedscott]

What is there to do past 10:30pm?

[skull]

For March, I should try to be asleep by 11 every night for a month. See if I feel better after that.

That is still way late for me. I try to be in bed by 9. I am up at 5am usually to go ride or whatever, if I don't get to bed before 9 I am so foggy and lethargic. I would go to bed by 7 if it wasn't the need to do family and after work stuff. I am a spent unit by then. When I have to do work at night I am almost in a dream like state I am that tired.

I think I have the opposite to you

[casual_cyclist]

What is there to do past 10:30pm?

So much! Ride, walk, dream, have a d&m with your best mate, read, imagine, computer games, tv, think about your day, plan the next day and so on. If I try to squeeze all that in before bedtime, it's no wonder I get to bed so late

[casual_cyclist]

That is still way late for me. I try to be in bed by 9. I am up at 5am usually to go ride or whatever, if I don't get to bed before 9 I am so foggy and lethargic. I would go to bed by 7 if it wasn't the need to do family and after work stuff. I am a spent unit by then. When I have to do work at night I am almost in a dream like state I am that tired.

I have done the early morning thing in the past. I didn't mind it but I didn't love it. I found it an interesting place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there

I think I have the opposite to you

Sounds likely. Early bird vs night owl.

[toolonglegs]

01/01 101 kgs
20/01 102.5 kgs
07/02 102.5 kgs
23/02 102.5 kgs

Surprised it's not going up with the amount of riding I am doing! Winter is nearly over though... Not that you would know it going outside!!!

[CKinnard]

That's definitely me. That said, I have been pushing it a bit too hard lately and need to pull it back to a more reasonable time. Anything before midnight is an early night for me but if I set my alarm for 8, that's a reasonable night's sleep.

interesting stuff CC.
I went through a phase in the 90s where I was studying full time, didn't have to be up before 9am some mornings...so used to stay up reading reading....messing with computer technology. I discovered the internet in 1990 and was manically trying to understand everything I could about it, which led to a successful side business for 10 years. For years, I'd stay up after the world and the rest of the house went to sleep, so I could get online via the landline and explore and experiment with the net, networks, security, and hardware.

However, I'd not be at my best during the day. And eventually my health suffered for it. Staying up late means late night snacks+++. I probably developed metabolic syndrome during that phase.

These days, I sometimes stay up late driven by insatiable curiosity about many scientific and tech interests. But it costs me in cycling fitness and sharpness during the day. If I'm really honest with myself, most of the stuff I do late at night doesn't pay back!

[casual_cyclist]

However, I'd not be at my best during the day. And eventually my health suffered for it. Staying up late means late night snacks+++. I probably developed metabolic syndrome during that phase.

Yeah, wow! I must be really lucky because between dinner and 2 or 3, I don't get hungry at all. I only drink water if I'm thirsty. That said, I'm really committed to the early to bed in March. I know if I keep this up I will get sick. It has happened before.

These days, I sometimes stay up late driven by insatiable curiosity about many scientific and tech interests. But it costs me in cycling fitness and sharpness during the day. If I'm really honest with myself, most of the stuff I do late at night doesn't pay back!

I notice my riding is slower if I lose too much sleep. My sharpness doesn't suffer but my motivation does. But I'm not sure if my motivation is related to sleep though. I'll let you know at the end of March.

[casual_cyclist]

Something interesting I came across recently is how complex the maths of calories in vs. calories out turns out to be. It has long been held that a pound of fat is 3,500 calories (actually kilocalories) and that a 500 calorie (kcal) deficit a day will lead to a pound of weight loss per week. This is not nearly correct. The landmark study to demonstrate this is the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Essentially, 36 volunteers were starved to lose >25% of their original body weight. Here is a summary of the results (1):

Keys studied 36 people over the course of one year, and the experiment included a phase where an average daily calorie deficit of 1,640 calories was maintained for 24 weeks. If the '3,500 rule' is correct then the average weight loss would have been 78lbs (or a staggering 46% of the average adult male body weight of that time) - yet the experiment was designed to make participants lose 25% of their body weight.

Another team of researchers scoured the research to see if the 3500 kcal rule held true in real world situations (2).

To test the 3500 kcal rule against observed weight loss data, we searched the literature for weight loss experiments where compliance to diet and exercise interventions were directly supervised in confined subjects or through multiple clinical measurements of changed body energy stores and total daily energy expenditures. A total of seven studies met the required criteria.
...
As illustrated, the majority of subjects exhibited substantially less weight loss than the amount predicted by the 3500 kcal rule. Subjects lost 20.1±11.3 lbs, 7.4±12.6 lb less than the 27.6±16.0 lbs predicted by the 3500 kcal rule.
...
Our analysis demonstrates that the 3500 kcal rule significantly overestimates the magnitude of weight loss.

As a result, the researchers have developed what they claim to be a

A validated dynamic mathematical energy balance model that predicts weight change

There are links to the model here (3) and here (4).

The 3,500 cal rule claims that "Cut 500 calories per day and that's 1 lb per week. Over the course of one year, that would equal 52 lbs" (5). Plugging my data into the model, cutting back by 500 calories per day would give me a 15.6 lbs (7.1 kg) weight loss in a year, far short of the 52 lbs (23.5 kg) predicted by the 500 calorie rule. I actually woudn't mind if I dropped 7 kg, although if I'm working out and gaining muscle, it might not be that much.

I am developing a program of working out on Monday and Wednesday, running on Tuesday and Thursday and riding on Mon-Fri (except Wed). Eating will be restricted to between 9 am and 9 pm on all days except Tuesday and Thursday where I fast until 12 pm.

I'm going to try to stick to my plan for 12 weeks, so basically all of March, April and May. I'll probably weigh in every 4 weeks out of interest.

(1) http://www.ambitionfitness.com/blog/article-35" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4024447/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(3) http://www.pbrc.edu/research-and-facult ... ors/sswcp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(4) http://www.pbrc.edu/research-and-facult ... tor/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(5) http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchi ... 4p36.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[barefoot]

Something interesting I came across recently is how complex the maths of calories in vs. calories out turns out to be. It has long been held that a pound of fat is 3,500 calories (actually kilocalories) and that a 500 calorie (kcal) deficit a day will lead to a pound of weight loss per week. This is not nearly correct. The landmark study to demonstrate this is the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Essentially, 36 volunteers were starved to lose >25% of their original body weight. Here is a summary of the results (1):

Keys studied 36 people over the course of one year, and the experiment included a phase where an average daily calorie deficit of 1,640 calories was maintained for 24 weeks.

I think it's pretty well understood that any such rules are less and less valid, the further away from energy balance you go.

500 cal (~2000kJ) per day energy deficit, losing 1lb (~0.5kg) per week is about as far from equilibrium as I'd expect to go without bending rules all over the place.

A 1640 cal ( ~7000kJ) per day energy deficit is extreme. As the name of the study suggests, that's starvation territory. You'd be crazy to expect near-equilibrium rules to apply under these conditions.

The numbers are very relevant to me. As an average sized bloke with a generally sedentary occupation, my equilibrium point is about 9000kJ per day. I did 6 months at a ~2000kJ deficit (so eating 7000kJ/day), and I did indeed lose around 0.5kg per week (most weeks). If I was to do this starvation experiment... reduce my intake to a 7000kJ deficit, so I'm only eating 2000kJ per day... that's just... wow. So far from a normal equilibrium diet that I wouldn't expect my metabolism to behave even remotely normally.

I wouldn't be dismissing the commonly held rules of thumb so quickly. They're not going to be spot-on accurate for all cases, but they're a reasonable start point.

Use more energy than you consume, and you'll lose weight. That's the simple bit, and it really shouldn't be in dispute as much as it is. The difficult bit is the how to consistently consume less energy than you use.

tim

[CKinnard]

CC, I've read a few of the articles you refer to. A few issues to my mind.
They are saying 3500 doesn't work for two main reasons:

1.
As weight loss progresses, and the body gets lighter, the metabolic rate drops accordingly.
This is a well known issue and an experienced dietitian will progressively adjust energy intake to accommodate weight loss, especially when trying to lose more than 10kg.

2.
The researchers state a weight loss plateau usually occurs 6-9 months into a Calorie restricted diet.
But they say the reason for this is that most dieters begin to deviate from prescribed Calorie restriction!

I need to read up on this more, but in my view the researchers are being disingenuous to state 3500 Cal predictions are erroneous.
The math and physiology is fine. It's human psychology that is sabotaging things.

edit:
I've just been playing with their java app, and am not impressed.
There's no way to vary energy expenditure! Not good.

[singlespeedscott]

31/12/14 - 79kg & 22.5% body fat;

08/01/15 - 78kg & 22.2% body fat;

17/01/15 - 78.3kg & 22.3% body fat;

23/01/15 - 78kg & 22.2%fat;

01/02/15 - 78kg & 22.2% fat;

08/02/15 - 77.5kg, 22.0% fat.

15/02/13 - 75.8kg & 21.4% fat

26/02/15 - 77.2kg & 21.9% fat