Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

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Bluejay87
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Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Bluejay87 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:01 pm

I've just finished reading the Secret Race by Tyler Hamilton and it was very interesting. Given the importance the book places on hematocrit values in performances at pro level, it got me thinking about what impact it has at the amateur level. Now obviously at really low amateur levels, your fitness and weight are going to be far greater limiting factors than your PCV. But I was wondering whether people thought this value had a significant impact at, say, A grade club levels? i.e do the better riders tend to have a naturally (or otherwise) higher hematocrit?

I guess one reason why this wouldn't be the case is that amatuer riders don't really participate in long multi stage tours like the tour de france where the real benefit of a high hematocrit is seen.

On a related note, has anyone heard of EPO use at club level? Seems a bit extreme but it must happen. A relevant article here:

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/ne ... e-your-dad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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KGB
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby KGB » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:27 pm

I think the same applies, some riders will have naturally higher hematocrit, others might be lower but can still compete due to strengths in other areas.

There has been positive tests in state A grade riders, one well known sydney rider was positive for caffeine when I was a junior,back when it was on the banned list.
I haven't heard of any for epo though and haven't heard of any at all for quite a while now.

There have been a few positives at world and national masters level as well, any time people can afford it, I think there will be some people tempted enough to cheat.
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Bluejay87 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:32 pm

one well known sydney rider was positive for caffeine when I was a junior,
Ridiculous!

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Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Taking EPO to win a C grade crit is pretty extreme!... Winnings $20 by spending quite a few $100 seems a bit pointless. But it does happen.
Most people go for some cheaper cheat which usually involves pills or creams... Not as complicated as injecting yourself and constantly monitoring your blood values.
Raced against a guy last year in a stage race who later got done for corticoids ( from a test at that race )... He was at the pointy end of the field,... Not sure how much of that was the dope.
If you have the bucks... And you are getting on a bit, I can see the temptation of some HGH and Test... Must be nice waking up in the morning at 50 feeling like a 20 year old .... Even if sport isn't involved! :lol:

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g-boaf
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:20 pm

I just find it unreal that it has crept into the amateur ranks. Sure, some of them take things seriously, but not that seriously. Pretty sad.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby CXCommuter » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:13 am

g-boaf wrote:I just find it unreal that it has crept into the amateur ranks. Sure, some of them take things seriously, but not that seriously. Pretty sad.
Doesn't surprise me with the prevalence of steroids in weight lifting- just to look good (not competing). Some people will use anything to get ahead of the pack or feed their own narcissism/low self esteem
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Bluejay87
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Bluejay87 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:32 am

I was just wondering how much of a boost it would even give amatuer riders. From Tyler's book it seemed to really only be of benefit in huge races like tdf.
I guess there is probably amateur riders who have huge training and racing loads that would see benefit.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby dalai47 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:13 pm

If it helps you train harder and recover quicker, there will be a benefit regardless of the riders level...

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g-boaf
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:50 pm

CXCommuter wrote:
g-boaf wrote:I just find it unreal that it has crept into the amateur ranks. Sure, some of them take things seriously, but not that seriously. Pretty sad.
Doesn't surprise me with the prevalence of steroids in weight lifting- just to look good (not competing). Some people will use anything to get ahead of the pack or feed their own narcissism/low self esteem
Somewhat related to that and prompted by this discussion, I did go into one of these places (which shall be nameless) dealing with "supplements" primarily aimed at weightlifters and posed a few questions, just being curious (and not particularly interested in taking any of that stuff). The answers were interesting to say the least, with recommendations of taking all sorts of interesting things - and when asked, is that really okay or legal, told "it's completely natural".

That it may be, but it also seems pretty dodgy too. And I really wonder if some of that stuff would pass proper drug testing/passport controls? :shock:

No way in the world I'm taking any of that stuff.
dalai47 wrote:If it helps you train harder and recover quicker, there will be a benefit regardless of the riders level...
From my little fact finding exercise, that was the direction of the answers that were given to me. It's all about being able to train harder and recover quickly, even by the next day. :shock: We are talking here you know big weights workouts and then being pretty okay the next day. It was very interesting to hear some of the recommendations.

chriscole
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby chriscole » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:52 pm

Bluejay87 wrote:I've just finished reading the Secret Race by Tyler Hamilton and it was very interesting. Given the importance the book places on hematocrit values in performances at pro level, it got me thinking about what impact it has at the amateur level. Now obviously at really low amateur levels, your fitness and weight are going to be far greater limiting factors than your PCV. But I was wondering whether people thought this value had a significant impact at, say, A grade club levels? i.e do the better riders tend to have a naturally (or otherwise) higher hematocrit?

I guess one reason why this wouldn't be the case is that amatuer riders don't really participate in long multi stage tours like the tour de france where the real benefit of a high hematocrit is seen.

On a related note, has anyone heard of EPO use at club level? Seems a bit extreme but it must happen. A relevant article here:

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/ne ... e-your-dad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The higher your haematocrit is, the greater the oxygen-carrying capacity of your blood, per unit volume. For a given/fixed cardiac output, you'll therefore deliver more oxygen per unit time to your working muscles. This will be an advantage irrespective of the level or length of your competitive efforts (assuming you're doing something predominantly aerobic, for more then a few minutes at a time!). Whether that effect is relevant in one's own specific context (eg many other factors could be far more important) is another kettle of fish.

It's a bit like being a weight weenie. Unless you have reached your absolute maximum physical peak and have nothing else to give by losing weight, or more training/conditioning, then it's very likely that improving something else (your weight, your cardiovascular fitness, your technique, etc.) will have a much bigger impact on your race times than replacing that bike component with one that weighs 20g less. Similarly, unless you've already fully optimised everything else, tweaking your haematocrit up a few % is unlikely to make much of a practical difference to you. But, all other things being equal, yes there is still a very small advantage to be had.

It's worth noting that as your haematocrit climbs, your blood becomes more viscous, and therefore harder to pump around your circulatory system. The desired goal is maximising oxygen delivery per unit time, and as viscosity increases (with increasing haematocrit) there comes a point where further increases in haematocrit are counterproductive, actually _reducing_ your VO2. That local maximum is a little different depending on things like hydration status, vasomotor tone, and other individual factors, but as a general guide, you will start to see significant deleterious effects on your VO2 once you push your haematocrit beyond ~50%.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby jules21 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:42 pm

chriscole wrote:The higher your haematocrit is, the greater the oxygen-carrying capacity of your blood, per unit volume. For a given/fixed cardiac output, you'll therefore deliver more oxygen per unit time to your working muscles. This will be an advantage irrespective of the level or length of your competitive efforts (assuming you're doing something predominantly aerobic, for more then a few minutes at a time!).
as I understand, the advantage of taking EPO and boosting your haematocrit in stage races is that your haematocrit level takes more of a hit when you're killing yourself day-in-day-out. Robert Millar in his autobiography explains how he experimented a lot with riding clean, after he was busted using EPO, and determined that he could beat the dopers in one-day races. but in a grand tour, his blood values would deteriorate gradually whereas the dopers were starting each day fresh as a daisy..

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby woody81 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:26 am

Interesting thread. I have s medical condition, haemo chromo tosis. Wonder if that allows a given volume of blood to carry more oxygen.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Bluejay87 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:49 am

woody81 wrote:Interesting thread. I have s medical condition, haemo chromo tosis. Wonder if that allows a given volume of blood to carry more oxygen.
I don't think your excess iron is stored in the form of blood cells. What is your haemaglobin and pcv values? Do you have bloodletting or chelation therapy?

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby woody81 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:39 pm

Good idea on checking haemocrit. I'll see what the doc says.

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toolonglegs
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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:06 pm

EPO would be a good way to bring your iron levels down ... Suggest it to your doc ;-)

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Dave-in-LK » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:02 am

As I said in another thread I'm a drug and alcohol counsellor

In the past year I have had 4 fitness freaks self refer for counselling ...mostly gym addicts who use all sorts of things for the perfect look or whatever

Im sure a few would be doing it

People like to win, it makes them feel important or raises thier social status if you like.

I don't think it would be widespread though but it would happen in the cities I think

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby chriscole » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:26 pm

woody81 wrote:Interesting thread. I have s medical condition, haemo chromo tosis. Wonder if that allows a given volume of blood to carry more oxygen.
Excellent question. :-) I also have genetic/hereditary haemochromatosis. If you're untreated or undertreated, your Hb _may_ be sitting at the high end of normal, and as long as you're not malnourished on the vitamin front (folate / B12) you'll have a healthily normal haematocrit, but it's unlikely to be high / supra-normal.

There's a paucity of data on whether there might be over-representation of people with haemochromatosis in elite level endurance athletes, but the gut feeling from senior medical / sports physiology staff at the AIS is that there probably isn't. It'd make a neat little research project for someone.

Most of your excess iron is, unfortunately, being deposited in your non-blood tissues and making you rusty, rather than contributing to your oxygen-carrying capacity. :-(

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby chriscole » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:33 pm

jules21 wrote:
chriscole wrote:The higher your haematocrit is, the greater the oxygen-carrying capacity of your blood, per unit volume. For a given/fixed cardiac output, you'll therefore deliver more oxygen per unit time to your working muscles. This will be an advantage irrespective of the level or length of your competitive efforts (assuming you're doing something predominantly aerobic, for more then a few minutes at a time!).
as I understand, the advantage of taking EPO and boosting your haematocrit in stage races is that your haematocrit level takes more of a hit when you're killing yourself day-in-day-out. Robert Millar in his autobiography explains how he experimented a lot with riding clean, after he was busted using EPO, and determined that he could beat the dopers in one-day races. but in a grand tour, his blood values would deteriorate gradually whereas the dopers were starting each day fresh as a daisy..
I'd believe that. I'd guess it's likely true because if you're _not_ on EPO, any significant haemoconcentration effect (eg from dehydration) will be subject to normal homeostatic feedback and your body will shift fluid / haemodilute you back to normal. In a person taking exogenous EPO, while your body will try to restore normal Hct and viscosity, there is a persistent artificial stimulus forcing your marrow to pump out more red cells.

A lesser contributor to the effect you mention might also conceivably be due to differences in net red cell _loss_. This is more an issue for runners who pummel red cells to death in their feet, but may well apply to a lesser extent to cyclists, but if everyone in the race has roughly the same attrition rate (haemolysed red cells) per day, then the dudes on EPO will obviously have a relative advantage, as they're replacing more of those departed erythrocytes, whereas the honest competitors are gradually losing them day by day.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Bluejay87 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:24 pm

Had my blood tested two days ago and my hematocrit is only 40 and heamaglobin also on lower limit of normal.....guess I won't be winning the tour any time soon!

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:53 pm

chriscole wrote:It's worth noting that as your haematocrit climbs, your blood becomes more viscous, and therefore harder to pump around your circulatory system. The desired goal is maximising oxygen delivery per unit time, and as viscosity increases (with increasing haematocrit) there comes a point where further increases in haematocrit are counterproductive, actually _reducing_ your VO2. That local maximum is a little different depending on things like hydration status, vasomotor tone, and other individual factors, but as a general guide, you will start to see significant deleterious effects on your VO2 once you push your haematocrit beyond ~50%.
It's also worth noting that the increased blood viscosity due to high haematocrit can be fatal in extreme cases. There are several documented cases from the mid-late 90s when EPO was gaining popularity of athletes dying in their sleep - it so happens that when the heart rate is very low, it simply cannot push the sludgy blood around, essentially suffocating the patient.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby greyhoundtom » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:09 pm

Duck! wrote: It's also worth noting that the increased blood viscosity due to high haematocrit can be fatal in extreme cases. There are several documented cases from the mid-late 90s when EPO was gaining popularity of athletes dying in their sleep - it so happens that when the heart rate is very low, it simply cannot push the sludgy blood around, essentially suffocating the patient.
100 mg of aspirin morning and night helps to avoid that problem. :wink:

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Nikolai » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:46 pm

jules21 wrote:Robert Millar in his autobiography explains how he experimented a lot with riding clean, after he was busted using EPO
That would be David Millar, not Robert.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:56 pm

:lol: Robert Millar experimented with different types of lettuce to see which one put on the least weight ... his ( ? ) bio by ( can't remember ) was pretty good too.
I have David's bio too sitting on my phone but for some reason haven't been motivated to read it.

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby Nikolai » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:06 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I have David's bio too sitting on my phone but for some reason haven't been motivated to read it.
Probably garbage. Delete :)

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Re: Impact of Hematocrit in Amateur Racing

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:11 pm

I will read it one day... not in a hurry though.

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