ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

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ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:47 pm

In science and health there is so much information available these days via the web and much is straight out lying or less than fair treatment of the science. It's not practicable to sort out what is honest and what is not so the trick is to find sources you can trust. I place a lot of faith in material that Norman Swann presents.

So I was intetrested in an article from the ABC Health Report a couple of days ago at http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... transcript Perhaps you will find it interesting too.

Transcript


Norman Swan: If, like me, your focus when you're trying to lose weight, is on getting rid of that belly that's shaped more like a bottle of pinot noir than a six pack, you might wonder, apart from controlling what you eat, what's the best exercise?

That's what Rania Mekary and her colleagues set out to discover. Rania is at the Harvard School of Public Health and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences in Boston.

Rania Mekary: You know, there are two types of exercise, there is the aerobic exercise and there is the anaerobic exercise. And when you engage in aerobic activities such as jogging, running, swimming and what not, your major source of energy is coming from fat because fat can only be burned aerobically, with the presence of oxygen. It is not 100% fat but mostly fat, as well as some glycogen.

Norman Swan: And just to explain, glycogen is a storage carbohydrate, largely in your liver, which can pull down and get quick energy when you need it.

Rania Mekary: Exactly. And the other type of workout is the anaerobic workout, such as resistance training, which is meaning without the presence of oxygen. You are exerting a certain movement on the muscle above what the muscle can normally do. The source of energy for that type of exercise is mostly glycogen and not fat, because fat doesn't have a choice to be burned but with the presence of oxygen. Glycogen on the other hand could be burned with or without the presence of oxygen, so that's why when you do anaerobic activity your source of energy is really glycogen. So, that being said, this begs the question; how come we got those results? Why is weight training inversely associated with a decrease in waist circumference?

Norman Swan: You've given away the punchline. But just tell me about the research that you did and the question that you asked for the research.

Rania Mekary: We wanted to compare different types of physical activities in relation to waist circumference and body weight, but we wanted to focus on waist circumference because…do you want to know why? I don't know if you want to know why.

Norman Swan: Of course I want to know why! Because it's the most significant risk factor for heart disease and diabetes.

Rania Mekary: Exactly, and especially as we increase in age there is sarcopenia, which is the loss of skeletal muscle mass, and as a result there is an accumulation of fat mass, therefore when you weigh yourself on the scale, your body weight might show a slight decrease and then you might think you are doing good, but in fact no, this is not a good surrogate measure for health. You should rely on waist circumference which is a better measure because it measures the visceral fat or the abdominal fat mass around your waist.

So we wanted to look at the different types of exercises, moderate to vigorous aerobic activities, versus weight training in relation to waist circumference change as well as body weight change. Among men, healthy men of all BMI range, so they could be normal weight, overweight, obese, all men, when they replaced one type for the other, what happens.

Norman Swan: So this is a period of over 12 years you looked at this.

Rania Mekary: Yes, we looked at 12 years follow-up.

Norman Swan: So what did you find?

Rania Mekary: When we compared the different activities, 20 minutes of moderate vigorous aerobic activities versus weight training, we found that 20 minutes per day of weight training was the most strongly associated with the waist circumference change. Meaning as we age there is an inevitable increase in waist circumference. The people who engaged in weight training, they were lessening that increase, they were lessening it more, as compared to those who engaged in other types of physical activities.

Also those who combined both types of activities saw the most ideal results. So I'm not trying to discredit the health benefits of aerobic activities, no, I'm just saying that it is not enough by itself as we increase in age, you need to add strength training, weight training.

The other thing is we also compared replacing one…like replacing 20 minutes per day of weights instead of 20 minutes per day of aerobic activity, and we saw a very strong association, a favourable one with waist circumference change. Meaning it is really good if you replace weight training instead of aerobic activities, whereas the other way around didn't work. If you replace aerobic activities for weight training, equal time, it did not show a favourable response in waist circumference.

Norman Swan: Just to be clear, those who did both, which is what the current recommendation is in both Australia and the United States, they had the best benefit.

Rania Mekary: Exactly. And then we looked at those who did no weight training versus those who did less than 25 minutes per day of weight training versus those who did more than 25 minutes per day of weight training, and the take-home message was men who engage in more than 25 minutes per day of weight training, adding on top of that the aerobic activity, did not lead to any further benefit as far as waist circumference. So really you are in very good shape…if you don't like aerobic activities, you are really in very good shape if you do at least a minimum of 25 minutes per day of weight training, that's what we saw. Do you see what I mean? If you do less, then it's good to combine with aerobic activities as well to get the most benefit.

Norman Swan: So given your story at the beginning which was about the burning of fat, and that one of the reasons that you look at waist circumference is because of this toxic fat around your intestines, the visceral fat, why should weight training lesson the increase in waist circumference as we age?

Rania Mekary: Yes, excellent question. A few things are happening. Because we looked at long-term, so we are not talking about one month, we are talking about six months and more, long-term follow-up. What will happen over time, your muscles upon engaging in weight training will adapt. You will have more mitochondria in the muscles, and the mitochondria are the organs responsible for lipid oxidation…

Norman Swan: These are the little energy factories inside cells.

Rania Mekary: Exactly, that leads to the ATP which is the source of energy for the muscles to be able to move. So when you have more mitochondria in the muscle, that means automatically you're able to oxidise or burn more lipids or fat. That means, in lay terms, you are really able to get the benefit of the aerobic workout while engaging in the anaerobic workout.

Norman Swan: And indeed anybody who does weight training knows that there are some weight training exercises which get you out of breath, you run out of puff, so they are actually both aerobic and anaerobic at the same time.

Rania Mekary: Precisely, certainly a mixture of course. So adaptation was one thing. There was another justification, when you engage in weight training, studies have found that the energy expenditure increases not only in between sets, because you do a set of exercise and then you take a little rest and then a set, it increases not only in between sets but also 48 hours post the weight training workout. So think about that, meaning that if you compare someone who engages in 20 minutes per day of weight training versus someone who did not, that other person who did the weight training is burning more calories during the weight training and also two days after. So you are going to maintain the muscle mass, the fat mass will be left, you are burning more calories, and that's what happens. So all these mechanisms happening at the same time.

Norman Swan: And is there a particular weight training that works better than others?

Rania Mekary: In the paper we didn't look at that, so I don't want to say that my answer is from the paper, but this is from my own knowledge because I also train fitness on the side, I teach different things. You want to do something balanced for the whole body, so you don't want to do lower and neglect the upper or vice versa, right? So you want to target all the muscles in the group. If you do it right with the right weights, because everybody has a different muscle strength, so if you do it with the right weights and gradually the right amount of sets and reps then you should be all set.

Norman Swan: Where does nutrition fit into this? Did you look at the nutrition of these people versus their waist circumference? Before we even talk about weight loss.

Rania Mekary: We looked at the protein intake, we compared men who took more than the median of protein versus lower than the median in that sample. We saw a stronger association among men who consumed a little bit higher than the median…I can't remember what the median was in that sample but it was higher, like in the high intake of dietary protein. So we saw more benefit.

Norman Swan: And what about weight loss? What happened to their weight compared to the types of training?

Rania Mekary: Moderate to vigorous aerobic activities, this is the type of activity which was the strongest associated with body weight change, and not weight training, which is because muscles weigh more than fat. So when you do weight training the right way you are maintaining your muscle mass, so if you are going to weigh yourself on the scale you might be upset—oh, I'm not losing weight—but you don't want to lose the muscle mass. Of course it's not going to change that much, you should really measure your waist circumference. So we did see that moderate to vigorous aerobic activities, it leads to the strongest lessening of body weight increase, but that's not very interesting to us because we don't want that.

Norman Swan: Just finally, answer me a question that listeners often ask me; Norman, I want to lose weight, I want to get fitter, what's the yin and yang of fat and muscle when it comes to weight loss? Is there an equation here? So if I lose six kilos and I'm training at the same time, what's the story? For every kilo of fat that I lose and you put on muscle, is there a story here that you know?

Rania Mekary: Yes, every kilo you lose or you gain in general is going to be 75% fat, 25% muscle. And also if you lose…however, you could change those percentages by engaging in the right type of physical activity, such as weight training, and then eating the right diet such as protein, so that you are really adding on muscle mass and not fat mass when you add each kilo.

Norman Swan: So, crudely, you could be losing less weight by about 25% potentially if you are involved in weight training while you are trying to lose weight, but your waist circumference would go down. In other words you would be 25% more disappointed with your weight loss but it's because you are putting on muscle.

Rania Mekary: Exactly.

Norman Swan: So Rania, have you got any tips for somebody who is willing to do weight training for 20 minutes a day, what they should be doing?

Rania Mekary: Yes, they could be efficient and rather than taking rest periods in between sets they could do, for example, a set of upper body workout and then they could alternate with either abs workout or lower body, and then they go upper, lower, upper, lower. So they are really doing a 40-minute workout in a 20-minute workout because they are not taking a rest. They are resting their muscles but they are working on a different muscle group. That's just my advice. That's what I do to myself.

Norman Swan: You're a masochist! And I take it that interval training, high intensity interval training postdates this study and you are not able to comment on that.

Rania Mekary: No, this is not from the study, again I cannot comment on it, you're right.

Norman Swan: Rania Mekary, a tough sounding trainer. She is at the Harvard School of Public Health and the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences in Boston.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:48 pm

I'm fortunate because I actually like weight training, and especially of the heavy-resistance kind.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:37 pm

Excellent information :D all I need now is the motivation. :oops:

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:15 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:Excellent information :D all I need now is the motivation. :oops:
I agree.

Good article. I have known this for a long time:
Also those who combined both types of activities saw the most ideal results. So I'm not trying to discredit the health benefits of aerobic activities, no, I'm just saying that it is not enough by itself as we increase in age, you need to add strength training, weight training.
I have a gym in my house. There are 2 weight machines, a pull-up/leg raise tower, free weights and a fit ball. But like greyhoundtom, I struggle with motivation. How do you get motivated to work out? I like working out but I can't seem to find the motivation to get in there.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby DavidS » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:13 pm

I don't own any weights and am unlikely to get any or go to a gym. What can you do as weight training without weights? Would push ups, squats, sit ups and the like work given you are lifting the weight of your body?

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:18 pm

You're a trammie Dave, know anybody in track maintenance? Plenty of weight in chunks of old rail :wink:
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby tcdev » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:23 pm

DavidS wrote:I don't own any weights and am unlikely to get any or go to a gym. What can you do as weight training without weights? Would push ups, squats, sit ups and the like work given you are lifting the weight of your body?
There are certainly weight training programs that utilise bodyweight in lieu of machines or weights. You'll find you do need some basic equipment to assist, but you can get good strength results, if not size.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby steve-waters » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:30 pm

Callisthenics type training with body weight is great stuff.

Kettlebells plus body weight are my chosen weights - not been in a gym for nearly four years after pretty much having membership continuously for 15 odd years prior.

The advantage of body weight is also body function and control which is a good thing to develop given our sport has us sit for most of the time with our feet locked in place.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby tcdev » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:44 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I have a gym in my house. There are 2 weight machines, a pull-up/leg raise tower, free weights and a fit ball. But like greyhoundtom, I struggle with motivation. How do you get motivated to work out? I like working out but I can't seem to find the motivation to get in there.
I've never been able to maintain motivation with activities such as running or swimming, or even weights regimes that involve a plethora of machines. I find it monotonous, boring and uninspiring.

I've always needed to do an activity that has an aim or goal, or demonstrable progress, or competitive element like a sport, most notably a team sport. I've played soccer and practised martial arts and enjoyed them immensely for many years in the past for this reason. When you're doing an activity like this, unlike running for example, it just doesn't feel like I'm doing exercise just for the health benefits.

I started lifting free weights many, many years ago and I enjoyed the demonstrable progress element. I kept a strict log of my lifts and could track my progress even when the results weren't immediately apparent in the mirror. It allowed me to set some goals and work towards them, rather than just mind numbingly going through the motions each week on a machine. Some goals took months, some longer - years in some cases. It's interesting and somewhat heartening to realise you're stronger in your 40's than you were in your 20's and 30's!

Aside from the well documented health benefits of weight training, training specifically for strength using compound natural movements - as I do - also comes in pretty handy at times as you can imagine. That's an added incentive for me.

I think the ultimate success of any exercise regime is critically dependent on how much you enjoy it. Like dieting, you're facing an uphill battle if you have to drag yourself to each and every session - on the good days! If you're particularly interested in weight training, you need to find a 'style' that interests and motivates you. Like different martial arts and different ball games, there are different options for weight training that appeal to different people. Do some research and try out what you think might appeal to you. There's more to weight training than simply picking up a dumbbell or pushing out 10 leg extensions. Just like there's more to riding a bike than hopping on a fixie and riding to the shops; the more you learn about it the more you realise you need to learn more!

EDIT: As I mentioned, my focus for weight training is strength in 'natural' movements. About 6 years ago, after 3 relatively long term gym memberships, I invested in a power rack and bench and, after a short adjustment period that you go through with any new equipment, absolutely love it. It has more than paid for itself in membership fees, and of course the convenience means it's harder to find excuses not to train! ;)
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:28 am

DavidS wrote:I don't own any weights and am unlikely to get any or go to a gym. What can you do as weight training without weights? Would push ups, squats, sit ups and the like work given you are lifting the weight of your body?

DS
Weights and exercise equipment is the sort of thing that people buy an initial set to get started and then quickly give up and had to the local pawn shop. ANd they then charge by the weight at prices about 1/3 new. Only thing about new vs old is the old look a little used which is good for cred anyway 8)

I accumulated heaps of free weights by simply dropping in to hock shops regularly. You seldom get a lot but bit by bit...

You also tend to get only weights up to 2.5kg.

My comments relate to what the story was about 20 years ago. Presumably still the same.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby DavidS » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:16 pm

Maybe I should just keep my eyes open for council put outs - bound to be some weights around.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Dragster1 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:16 am

You can buy cheap water filled dumbbells, you don't need every bit of weight lifting equipment. You can do chin ups, push ups, sit ups, squats and etc..

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Summernight » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:21 pm

Interesting reading. I only usually do bodyweight training when the swimming pool is out of action, but I guess I should start doing more of it.

I bought a great app for my phone which gives short or long workout routines that do the whole body entirely using your bodyweight (and maybe a chair or two). The short sessions are good because it makes you do 20 seconds of each exercise, 10 second break and then the next exercise (4 different exercises). As I get bored easily I do about 4 or 5 reps of those exercises then ask the app to change exercises so I'm doing something new.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby CKinnard » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:37 pm

I also have a lot of respect for Norman, but take issue with him on not balancing this researcher's opinions with others.
She is really dumbing down the topic and making wrong generalizations.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:54 pm

Summernight wrote:Interesting reading. I only usually do bodyweight training when the swimming pool is out of action, but I guess I should start doing more of it.

I bought a great app for my phone which gives short or long workout routines that do the whole body entirely using your bodyweight (and maybe a chair or two). The short sessions are good because it makes you do 20 seconds of each exercise, 10 second break and then the next exercise (4 different exercises). As I get bored easily I do about 4 or 5 reps of those exercises then ask the app to change exercises so I'm doing something new.
Sounds interesting Summer, got a name please?
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:46 pm

CKinnard wrote:I also have a lot of respect for Norman, but take issue with him on not balancing this researcher's opinions with others.
She is really dumbing down the topic and making wrong generalizations.
Seriously - She responded to Norman's questions and direction. Do you expect him to fit in the whole ambit of a complex subject in a half hour radio show? Follow a few links and you can get it in all it's peer reviewed glory.

The content is fine for those that have an enduring interest who also look have been exposed to a continuum of related ideas and who therefore have a smattering of much and a detail of some. Of necessity it can't cover everything of a complex science in the one show. And to not do so is NOT dumbing down.

Is there a particular POV or regimen that you wanted presented? I suggest that if that POV has merit and evidence then it will have already been covered on the either the AUntie's Health Report and/or Auntie's THe Science Show or will be in the future. Stay tuned to both.
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby DavidS » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:30 pm

Dragster1 wrote: You can do chin ups, push ups, sit ups, squats and etc..
This is what I was thinking - trying a few sit ups, push ups and squats. Not real good at the moment but should get better. Might try chin ups but don't really know where. One issue I have is RSI - sore wrist, thumb, shoulder if I use them in certain ways. The push ups are a challenge so I'll have to see how I go with them, bit worried about the wrist as it is the part which seems to have issues more than the others.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:03 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Seriously - She responded to Norman's questions and direction. Do you expect him to fit in the whole ambit of a complex subject in a half hour radio show? Follow a few links and you can get it in all it's peer reviewed glory.
If Norman Swan was seriously trying to lose weight, he'd realize 2 hours of exercise a week is going to make very little difference, which is what this study tested.
It's a misleading study with an even more misleading title.

Regarding 6 packs, the following is much more informative
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-jade-t ... 80234.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Try and reconcile what the researcher said about aerobic activity being primarily fat burning and anaerobic being primarily carb burning, with the graph below.
And keep in mind weightlifting will be an activity for most of us at least 25% VO2max.
(VO2max for the average person being around 10 metabolic equivalents. And 1 metabolic equivalent being 3.5ml O2/(kg bwt*min)

Image

There's smarter explanations for the fat stripping effects of resistance training (and short high intensity interval training) that this researcher didn't touch on. They relate to hormones, which the huffington post article covers better.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:31 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
Summernight wrote:Interesting reading. I only usually do bodyweight training when the swimming pool is out of action, but I guess I should start doing more of it.

I bought a great app for my phone which gives short or long workout routines that do the whole body entirely using your bodyweight (and maybe a chair or two). The short sessions are good because it makes you do 20 seconds of each exercise, 10 second break and then the next exercise (4 different exercises). As I get bored easily I do about 4 or 5 reps of those exercises then ask the app to change exercises so I'm doing something new.
Sounds interesting Summer, got a name please?
http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitnes ... -apps.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have the 'Bodyweight Training: You Are Your Own Gym' app. It was a good purchase and handy with video how-tos given my unco-ness. :)

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:13 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Seriously - She responded to Norman's questions and direction. Do you expect him to fit in the whole ambit of a complex subject in a half hour radio show? Follow a few links and you can get it in all it's peer reviewed glory.
It would have taken Norman 5 minutes to realize Rania's prospective statistical analysis of one longitudinal questionnaire study, was pitted against the opposite findings from a comprehensive systematic review.

It's obvious to me that Rania, as a part time resistance training biased personal trainer, had personal motive for carrying out her statistical analysis. In her discussion, she does not attempt to explain the findings of the lit review, that show superior reduction of visceral fat levels with aerobic exercise.

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:42 pm

CKinnard wrote:It's obvious to me that Rania, as a part time resistance training biased personal trainer, had personal motive for carrying out her statistical analysis. In her discussion, she does not attempt to explain the findings of the lit review, that show superior reduction of visceral fat levels with aerobic exercise.
So the answer is to do a bit of everything. Got it. :P

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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby kb » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:14 pm

"Must have balance Daniel-San"
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Re: ABC Health Report-Do weights and ingest protein

Postby CKinnard » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:50 pm

Summernight wrote:So the answer is to do a bit of everything. Got it. :P
what was the question? 6 pack?
Most people who do both dont have a 6 pack.
Most people who do either/or don't have a 6 pack.
Most people who do less than 2 hours of exercise a week don't have a 6 pack.

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