6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
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6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby tcdev » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:25 pm
Of course I was out of the saddle until I could walk again, more-or-less pain free. Fortunately that only took about a week. During that time I read the article on knee pain by Steve Hogg which someone on this site - and apologies for losing the reference - linked to. Of course there being 102 different causes of knee pain I wasn't exactly sure of my particular issue(s), but it at least gave me some ideas.
Before getting a fit though, I had a chat to my riding buddy (a fellow novice) about some of the most likely issues and he commented on 2 in particular; my seat height and my knees being angled outwards quite noticeably! So my 3rd seat height adjustment since getting the bike saw it raised even further, and my subsequent 38km ride had me concentrating absolutely on placing my feet ever so slightly wider on the pedals (no cleats yet) and - more significantly - keeping my knees as close as possible (it did tend to increase the chafing a bit though). I think I did a pretty good job at keeping that focused for the entire ride too, but it was a significant mental effort! My riding buddy commented that my technique definitely looked different!
I'm loathe to jump the gun here, but some 2 days later I can only say that my knees haven't felt better since I started riding. I would think that straight off the back of such a debilitating injury, another ride with bad fit/technique would only flare it up again immediately. Although there is some residual pain from 6 months of abuse - and I don't expect that to be cured with a week off the bike - I'm pretty confident that I'm no worse off than when I mounted the bike before my last ride. Eventually of course I'd like - and expect - to be completely pain free, and I'm hoping that now I'm finally able to achieve that.
I will of course need some discipline in correcting my technique (knees together). My question is, is this something in particular that others here have struggled with and have had to consciously correct? Will it eventually come natural to me?
As an aside, when grinding up hills (seated) on that last ride I actually felt like I had a bit more power than previously. Is that likely, or am I just imagining things so soon?
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby cyclotaur » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:08 am
Correcting the seat height and improving pedalling technique are the two simplest improvements you can make. Just watch the good riders and mimic their pedalling technique.
True, it won't help the chafing but if you're naturally large of thigh you'll just need to work with it. A little chafing is far preferable to busted knees.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby Calvin27 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:20 am
Sore knees is one of those things the bike industry has not yet resolved. If you are having to find yourself putting your feet wider then the q factor (pretty much distance between two pedals) is too narrow for you. Unfortunately bicycle part manufacturers still haven't gotten around to q factor adjustability mainly because this affects chain line so much. If this is serious enough, you're probably not gonig to find a solution short of MTB cranks which have a wider q factor.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:01 am
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby kb » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:10 am
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby RonK » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:21 am
Other points to observe:
- make sure the saddle is not too far forward, if your knees are in front of the pedal axle with the crank horizontal they'll likely be overloaded
- that you use flat pedals indicates that you are likely a pedal masher, you need to lift your cadence to reduce the load on your knees, maybe time to go clipless and focus on cadence.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:41 pm
Saddle height. Do a Google search and find out the various techniques for getting the correct saddle height. To summarise, your saddle height may end up somewhere in the range of 1.05 to 1.09 times your inner leg length measured from pedal top to top of saddle along the seat tube. Best to do your adjustments < 5mm at a time and keep a log how you feel the next day. Also give yourself a week or two to adjust. My log dates back to Nov 2008 and my ideal worked out to be 1.07 times inner leg length.
Saddle setback. Usually measured with a plumb bob and comparing front of knee to axle and referred to as KOPS. Unscientific, but it at least gives you a measurable reference point. Most people aim for knee over pedal spindle. Mine is 15mm behind the spindle currently. More saddle setback (as said by RonK) is often better for your knees.
Pedal choice. I found this made a significant difference. I've tried most pedal types out there, various flats, SPD, SPD SL and now Speedplay. If you have knee issues, don't muck around like I did, go straight to Speedplay Zero CrMo version (cheapest). They are expensive, but IMO most people with knee issues report improvement with them. They have no/minimal heel sideways float resistance.
Pedal cleat wedges and cleat placement. Positioning the cleat so the foot is more forward on the pedal helps.Vulgas/varus wedges can help, but didn't appear to make a big difference in my case. I still use them, along in insole arch support.
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bik ... h-support/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cadence. Keep it high (> 90). If it gets low, stand on the pedals instead. Standing up hill can improve you leg strength and therefore your knee support. I'm on a 1 X 9 setup these days as the Q Factor is better for me and standing is better for my knees on hills.
Crank length. Shorter is usually considered better. I found an improvement, but it was small in my case.
Q Factor. You are trying to keep your knee tracking vertically over your foot with less than 25mm of side movement during the pedal cycle (once you saddle height is close). If your pedal system doesn't have enough side to side range of movement to get this right, then you'll either need pedal spindle extenders or longer pedal spindles for wider. Or in my case a narrower Q Factor crankset. As said, you shouldn't need to concentrate hard on keeping your knees in place.
Diet. Has to be mentioned because it made a significant difference over time in my case. You may be eating something that is helping to inflame the joints. Whatever you change, give it a month or two to see a change. I went whole food plant based about 17 months ago and losing the 16Kg of body weight has helped my knees.
Stretching, ITB and muscle (self) massage. These usually help after a ride as everything gets tight. They can make an instant difference to my discomfort. As you fit improves, the tightness should be less of a problem in theory.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby Top_Bhoy » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:44 pm
You may not necessarily get a better fit than that done by a non-qualified physio but if you have unknowingly done any damage to your knee from using your current set-up, in theory, the qualified physio should be better able to identify it and provide appropriate remediation advice.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby redsonic » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:15 pm
Some great suggestions here Nobody. You have obviously done a comprehensive self assessment!Nobody wrote:As a person who has focused on trying to reduce knee soreness after rides for about 7 years, I'll write what I think works...
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby tcdev » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:01 am
I had also intended to graduate from flat pedals at some point, and I guess now it's time I bit the bullet. I have been concerned though that it would just add a few more variables into the equation that has to be solved to avoid knee pain; i.e. complicate the issue. But perhaps if fitted properly it could be part of the solution! If you see some idiot falling off his MTB at the lights, it could be me!
Have to admit I'm a bit of a grinder, preferring a lower cadence not just on hills, but flat as well. I started really attacking hills after a couple of weeks on the bike, and it has done wonders for my leg strength, but obviously at the cost of my knees. I also suspect my technique goes to hell in a hand basket when I get out of the saddle (which I try to avoid generally). I've never measured my cadence, will have to do that as well.
Again, thanks everyone - much appreciated!
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby TheWall » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:33 pm
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby flashpixx » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:49 pm
Since the initial fit I have never had knee pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, or numb hands ... only thing he didn't fix is my inability to ride
Out of interest the second fit was to drop the bars and get me into a more aero and efficient position.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby BraddAU » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:23 pm
Nobody wrote: I went whole food plant based about 17 months ago and losing the 16Kg of body weight has helped my knees.
Stretching, ITB and muscle (self) massage. These usually help after a ride as everything gets tight. They can make an instant difference to my discomfort. As you fit improves, the tightness should be less of a problem in theory.
Great post. Yes to everything from someone who has had a knee op and previous pain etc. Getting the bike right, managing your own recovery/stretching (ITBs and Glutes) could see you riding into your 90s. Remember... spin, spin spin.
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Re: 6 months of sore knees - Eureka?
Postby Kev365428 » Sat May 02, 2015 11:07 am
Go see a podiatrist to check for pronation.
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