Diet Thread

[AUbicycles]

Appreciated!

Cheers
Christopher

[Nobody]

I'll preface this post by saying it is specifically written with weight loss in mind. This post is intended for those in the BNA Loser Club who are trying to make a difference this year.

...

I'll probably follow this up with a post about what I eat in an average day, which may help some committed losers.

Here is the follow up post with a snap shot of my diet. This is not a weight loss diet for me currently, but it would be for most who are heavier than 62 kg and do more exercise. Let hunger be your guide initially if you follow a diet similar to this. Only if that doesn't work, then start mildly restricting, starting with the higher calorie density foods. According to Cronometer, this diet should meet all your basic nutrition needs. As can be seen in the bottom left corner, it is high in serves of fruit and veg. It's also has good levels for omega-3 fats, omega-6:3 ratio and very high in fibre.

The point of posting is to show the types and quantities of foods required with their relative calorie densities, rather than totals. Keep in mind that numbers are large, but absorption is lower. Absorption varies from person to person. There will also be absorption variations depending on preparation methods, calorie density, food type, amount of fibre, etc.

[mikesbytes]

Had a large guy turn up to my aqua class last night. After the class had a chat, he's about 220kg and looking to loose weight, his target is 125kg. Background is he played league and union in his 20's and says they gave him steroids without him knowing. I didn't discuss the steroids. In recent times he's been doing a lot of weights and had hit 200kg Bench Press. But now he's got a shoulder injury and is looking for other forms of exercise until the shoulder is sorted with the specialists.

Now this is where it gets interesting he said he was doing 900 calories which made him really suffer and he didn't loose any weight. The doctors can't figure out what the issue is. He doesn't have any of the problems that people his size have, ie doesn't have type2, cholesterol etc etc

I recall you guys talked about special situations where the body had become resistant or something? Refresh my memory and I'll mention them to him next week

[brumby33]

One thing with bigger people with seemingly slow metabalisms is having Metabolic Syndrome.

Apparently it's having something to do with having fatty liver and that the liver can't function so one becomes in weightloss limbo.

I don't know if he'll take it on but theres a Movie made by an Australian guy ( Joe Cross) who toured the fattest country on the planet (USA) and for 60 days went on a Vegetable juice diet. That's all he drank and ate...no veggies smoothies, just juice. He detoxified then the weight just fell off after the initial bad first days.

He had a bit more than just weight to lose,he also had a bad skin condition brought on by his lifestyle and while on tour, he spoke with others about it and their attitudes to junk food an it's quite interesting.

The Movie can be found free on Youtube called "Sick, Fat and Almost dead" theres also a sequel to that movie with a 2 after it.

The Inspiring part is he met this trucker by the name of Phil who is freaking Huuuge and would probably be in the same league as the guy you mentioned. It turned out he had the same skin condition as Joe did...anyway Phil eventually quit his trucker job, phoned Joe to Help him.....Joe went back to USA to Help Phil lose weight via the Juicing diet.....the results were astounding.

So..now that I've basically told you the whole story....the Movie is very much worth watching.

Joe Cross has made a huge impact on Thousands through juicing workshops, Internet sites and Juicing updates via FB and email.

Maybe this may give him some motivation. I'm about to get my juicer happening again.

Cheers

brumby33

[Nobody]

If juicing gets one to drink juice of fruit and veg one wouldn't have eaten otherwise, then that's a good result.

However I'll state the obvious that juicing or blending on average doesn't make the food healthier because unless you eat/drink it with a spoon, it's generally digested too fast. Our bodies monitor calorie intake better as chewed solid food rather than a fast consumed liquid.

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/smoothies/

[brumby33]

Hi Nobody,

The guy in the movie calls it a 'reboot' of his system and proclaims that you can't sustain it permanently but to reboot he metabilism and to give him the nutrition he needs to detoxify.

The idea of juicing as apposed to the veggie smoothie which is more a puree, is that you can get the nutrients into your system to be able to digest and get into where it's supposed to go without the body having to work hard for it eg digesting all that fibre.

He says that once the reboot is over, then salads, whole fruit and veggie smoothies are good to eat and will keep up the nutrients but by the time you partake of them, your system is now cleaned and ready to process the good stuff.

I've watched that movie Sick fat and almost dead a few times already and still pick up some good stuff.

All I gotta do now with this info is.....implement it

Cheers

brumby33

[mikesbytes]

From the conversation we had it appears he is not having difficulty controlling the calories and is probably doing what his doctor has advised, especially since 900 cals didn't work. I agree that metabolism is high on the list of reasons, I'm wondering about the other possibilities, what else I can suggest that he does some research on

[warthog1]

My concern would be that you are stepping out of your field of expertise Mike.
Would he not be better off seeing a professional dietician?
I'm just concerned he cherry picks the advice and ends up more confused and/or sick.
You may not know or understand the full medical history he has and what dietary requirements he has as a result.
I don't know the specifics of your relationship with this bloke but would be cautious myself.

[mikesbytes]

My concern would be that you are stepping out of your field of expertise Mike.
Would he not be better off seeing a professional dietician?
I'm just concerned he cherry picks the advice and ends up more confused and/or sick.
You may not know or understand the full medical history he has and what dietary requirements he has as a result.
I don't know the specifics of your relationship with this bloke but would be cautious myself.

Agree. I'm not providing specific nutritional advice, that is outside my qualifications. Talking generically about a couple of things for him to research himself is within my qualifications. BTW while it wasn't 100% clear it seems he is getting nutritional advice

[warthog1]

Sounds like you're all over it.

[Baalzamon]

Most likely it is his metabolism. And going very low calorie has ended up in starvation mode and now his body is in protection mode. And he needs to get his insulin checked which most GP's won't do...

[Nobody]

More on TMAO.

Article:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 194728.htm
Summary from article:

The bacteria that inhabit our gut digest food and produce metabolites that can have a marked effect on the heart and blood vessels. Researchers have found that measuring the levels of a molecule called trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) that is produced by the gut bacteria from components of red meat, eggs and diary products in blood could give them a quick and reliable way of assessing the risk of death and other major heart problems in patients who arrive in hospital emergency departments with chest pains.

Study:
https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/arti ... N-oxide-in
Quote from study conclusion:

To the best of our knowledge, we were able to show for the first time that TMAO is an important prognostic marker in predicting both near- and long-term adverse cardiovascular events beyond traditional risk factors and laboratory tests in the setting of acute coronary syndrome.

Reminds me of this part of a video on TMAO.
https://youtu.be/HnfHYPo8TgY?t=1m47s

[mikesbytes]

Most likely it is his metabolism. And going very low calorie has ended up in starvation mode and now his body is in protection mode. And he needs to get his insulin checked which most GP's won't do...

He said he wasn't diabetic, which is most unusual for someone of that size. If it comes up I'll ask him about the insulin check he had done.

[Baalzamon]

Yep doctors NEVER check insulin. One forum member his wife got her insulin checked and was blown away. Blood glucose = perfect. Insulin = sky high = caught potential diabetes.

[RhapsodyX]

Most likely it is his metabolism. And going very low calorie has ended up in starvation mode and now his body is in protection mode. And he needs to get his insulin checked which most GP's won't do...

He said he wasn't diabetic, which is most unusual for someone of that size. If it comes up I'll ask him about the insulin check he had done.

He needs a full metabolic suite done, and possibly go for the genetic testing (Nutrigenomix) to see if he should go low fat or high fat, but one of those extremes is probably required. Finding a dietitian who can make sense of his numbers if probably going to be the hardest problem to solve, or he's going to have to go it alone.

In my personal situation - I suffer from reactive hypoglycemia (my blood glucose levels crash about four hours after food) so I've given carbs the flick and gone Ketogenic. But it really is a case of "what works for the individual".

Edit : Genetic, not generic!

[mikesbytes]

He needs a full metabolic suite done, and possibly go for the generic testing (Nutrigenomix) to see if he should go low fat or high fat, but one of those extremes is probably required. Finding a dietitian who can make sense of his numbers if probably going to be the hardest problem to solve, or he's going to have to go it alone.

In my personal situation - I suffer from reactive hypoglycemia (my blood glucose levels crash about four hours after food) so I've given carbs the flick and gone Ketogenic. But it really is a case of "what works for the individual".

What's a full metabolic suite?

Bummer about the reactive hypoglycemia, good to see you have adapted your diet to deal with it, I'm guessing that most in your situation end up on medication when there's smarter ways to deal with it.

Yes the dietitian would really need to understand his situation at a technical level and that skill may limit who is suitable to advise. Thinking out aloud, in NSW does he qualify for specialist assistance? And if so what do they provide?

[CKinnard]

Had a large guy turn up to my aqua class last night. After the class had a chat, he's about 220kg and looking to loose weight, his target is 125kg. Background is he played league and union in his 20's and says they gave him steroids without him knowing. I didn't discuss the steroids. In recent times he's been doing a lot of weights and had hit 200kg Bench Press. But now he's got a shoulder injury and is looking for other forms of exercise until the shoulder is sorted with the specialists.

Now this is where it gets interesting he said he was doing 900 calories which made him really suffer and he didn't loose any weight. The doctors can't figure out what the issue is. He doesn't have any of the problems that people his size have, ie doesn't have type2, cholesterol etc etc

I recall you guys talked about special situations where the body had become resistant or something? Refresh my memory and I'll mention them to him next week

Mike, this guy's story is screaming at me that he is an unreliable historian, and very likely has lacked stable cognitive function and executive control over his life since his 20s. Never mind. Guys like this really need close monitoring and lots of parental type support/guidance. Their demons and appetites are powerful and it is extremely difficult for them to confront these alone.

Now, looking at his 900 Calorie thing. I presume that this VLCD was set by his doctor. This should only have been prescribed after consideration of his total energy expenditure and screening for metabolic syndrome and thyroid function. And many doctors don't do this.

Yes that would be difficult for him, but only for 5-7 days, and longer if he was doing a manual job or very long hours in an office.

However, there is absolutely no way in the world he would not have lost weight if he adhered to that diet for more than a week.

If you can get him on board and be a bit of a confidante, I'd suggest you ask to see the 900 Calorie diet he was given. Chances are it wasn't prescriptive which would make it harder for this guy to interpret and adhere to. If it is very detailed, I'd ask the guy if he kept a food log, and if so, could you see it. The reason I say this is because this guy is deluding himself. He may be very well intentioned and sincere in his endeavors but as I alluded he is cognitively fragile, and will need help in discovering where delusion is sabotaging his dietary aspirations.

Think about it. The guy weighs ~220kg. He is taking 900 Calories a day. Now does it make sense that he is taking enough energy to sustain those 220kg? That's 900 Cals/220 kg = 0.17 Cals/kg/hour. That low an intake cannot sustain tissue function. He would definitely tap into fat reserves to stay alive.

Now whatever calculator you use, his BMR is going to be well over 3000 Calories a day. And even if he had a "slow metabolism", his BMR would be unlikely to fall more than 15%. You can get a quick idea by taking his oral temperature before he starts a workout. If it is over 35.5C then he hasn't got a "slow metabolism".

So to summarize:
- the guy has a cognitive deficit in evaluating what is real and unreal...but that doesn't mean he is deliberately deceptive.
- ask to see his 900 Cal diet.
- ask to see his food log, if any. if you get it, run it through a nutrition and energy calculator.

[mikesbytes]

Thanks CK, I suspect that you are bang on with analysing this gentleman, he would get huge benefit from seeing someone with your skills. The 3000 cal BMR is also what he quoted to me.

If if the max metabolism reduction is 15% then his BMR is still 2550. Would thyroid issues reduce this figure even more? Even if it did as you have noted there is still a sizable gap.

Measuring temperature before exercise to determine metabolism existence is a great way to do it, so easy for someone to measure. Is there a simplistic chart or something on this.

I'll put to him that putting his food log thru a nutritional calculator is a great way to educate himself. Years ago when I did this myself I learn't heaps

[CKinnard]

Re temperature, many people especially fat, think they have a slow metabolism.
However, people who are heavier have a higher metabolism than if they were lighter, and higher than people of normal weight. Why? because they have more cells burbling away, even if most of them are fat cells.
There is also a lot of rubbish written about metabolism (and body temperature) in the lay media and internet, and many GPs use it as a catch phrase to explain what they don't know to patients.
Re body temp ranges, temp tends to slow as one ages at least partly due to a reduction in lean tissue, but also due to a more passive lifestyle in which tissue repair features less. I am guessing this guy is at least late 30s.
One can have hypothyroidism but still have normal thyroid tests, however they might have elevated thyroid stimulating hormone. This can often be reversed without resorting to drugs, when one gets lifestyle choices sorted and gets the weight off.

As an indication of normal body temps, below is the only lit review I found when I researched the topic 8 years ago. Keep in temp decreases with age and is also effected by body size. Larger people (not necessarily fatter) tend to run cooler than smaller people. This is the same for all animals. Clinically it is common for people over 40yo to have a basal oral temp as low as 35C, but this may rise to high 35 or more during the day. The review below hasn't clarified what age groups it refers to.


Abstract
Normal oral, rectal, tympanic and axillary body temperature in adult men and women: a systematic literature review The purpose of this study was to investigate normal body temperature in adult men and women. A systematic review of data was performed. Searches were carried out in MEDLINE, CINAHL, and manually from identified articles reference lists. Studies from 1935 to 1999 were included. Articles were classified as (1) strong, (2) fairly strong and (3) weak evidence. When summarizing studies with strong or fairly strong evidence the range for oral temperature was 33.2-38.2 degrees C, rectal: 34.4-37.8 degrees C, tympanic: 35.4- 37.8 degrees C and axillary: 35.5-37.0 degrees C. The range in oral temperature for men and women, respectively, was 35.7-37.7 and 33.2-38.1 degrees C, in rectal 36.7-37.5 and 36.8-37.1 degrees C, and in tympanic 35.5-37.5 and 35.7-37.5 degrees C. The ranges of normal body temperature need to be adjusted, especially for the lower values. When assessing body temperature it is important to take place of measurement and gender into consideration. Studies with random samples are needed to confirm the range of normal body temperature with respect to gender and age.

Scand J Caring Sci. 2002 Jun;16(2):122-8.Normal oral, rectal, tympanic and axillary body temperature in adult men and women: a systematic literature review. Sund-Levander M1, Forsberg C, Wahren LK.


Regarding metabolism drops, there are figures bandied about that say it can drop by 30%, but I've never come across that in diet and nutrition literature. And my clinical and hospital experience doesn't support that. You can get larger drops than 15% when you fast because so much of basal metabolic rate is associated with metabolizing of food, even in the fasted state.

[RhapsodyX]

He needs a full metabolic suite done, and possibly go for the generic testing (Nutrigenomix) to see if he should go low fat or high fat, but one of those extremes is probably required. Finding a dietitian who can make sense of his numbers if probably going to be the hardest problem to solve, or he's going to have to go it alone.

In my personal situation - I suffer from reactive hypoglycemia (my blood glucose levels crash about four hours after food) so I've given carbs the flick and gone Ketogenic. But it really is a case of "what works for the individual".

What's a full metabolic suite?

Bummer about the reactive hypoglycemia, good to see you have adapted your diet to deal with it, I'm guessing that most in your situation end up on medication when there's smarter ways to deal with it.

Yes the dietitian would really need to understand his situation at a technical level and that skill may limit who is suitable to advise. Thinking out aloud, in NSW does he qualify for specialist assistance? And if so what do they provide?

Hi Mike - I meant full bloods ("comprehensive metabolic panel"), plus the thryroid tests. If his metabolism is slow, it will show up in the thyroid values.

Re. dietician, I'd personally look for someone who will work with a ketogenic diet - but only because it means they go against the Dieticians Australia recommendations and are prepared to "think outside the box". But the genetic testing might say low-fat is the preferred solution. And yes, reducing "animal products" will be of benefit, because they are high in the amino acids which drive up insulin response - so a vegetarian/vegan diet will improve the control of blood glucose and reduce the hunger signals.

Re. reactive hypoglycemia - the usual solution is just to keep eating high-GI foods, but that makes it very hard to lose the weight. Not to mention, it can be quite debilitating when your blood glucose crashes and your brain effectively shuts down.

And I agree with CKinnard - if your subject is really on 900kCal a day, he would *have* to be losing weight. Post-AIS torture last year, my BMR dropped by the magic 15% (~2000kCal down to just over 1700kCal), and I was cold most of the time - which was not much fun when heading into winter.

[Nobody]

A while ago there was a thread about taxing sugar and soft drinks as they were believed to be the cause of rising obesity in AU and the world. So I thought the screen shot below (from the video below at 03:40) was of some interest. I've also posted previously on the subject here.



Warning: This video has an animal rights section at the end.

[CKinnard]

THe cheese chart is interesting. I had a quick look for similar charts/studies for other foods, and nothing came up (in the time allotted). I would take it with a grain of salt though. It may be that cheese has gone up to replace the falling intake of red meat in that time. Cheese might be coming off a low base as well, which is something hidden when using percentages.

Didn't look at Barnard's vid. I don't need to be convinced dairy is an inferior source of nutrition for humans, esp adults.

[Nobody]

04:22 in video has chart in pounds per capita consumption.

[big booty]

Solar flare activity has been declining since 2000. Could that explain the slight dip in obesity levels on that graph? Association is not the same as causation. Fructose over rides the leptin response. Eat sugar (50% fructose 50% glucose) and your brain thinks you are starving to death as it is unable to sense the leptin signal from adipose. If you think cheese is harmful don't eat it. If you think sugar is harmless by all means eat it to your hearts content.

[CKinnard]

Solar flare activity has been declining since 2000. Could that explain the slight dip in obesity levels on that graph? Association is not the same as causation. Fructose over rides the leptin response. Eat sugar (50% fructose 50% glucose) and your brain thinks you are starving to death as it is unable to sense the leptin signal from adipose. If you think cheese is harmful don't eat it. If you think sugar is harmless by all means eat it to your hearts content.

Have you got any evidence fruit intake overrides leptin response?
I presume by override, you mean causes leptin resistance.


From wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin#Ph ... _variation

Leptin level is decreased after short-term fasting (24–72 hours), even when changes in fat mass are not observed.[54][55][56]
Leptin plays a critical role in the adaptive response to starvation.[57][58]
In obese patients with obstructive sleep apnea, leptin level is increased, but decreased after the administration of continuous positive airway pressure.[59][60] In non-obese individuals, however, restful sleep (i.e., 8–12 hours of unbroken sleep) can increase leptin to normal levels.
Serum level of leptin is reduced by sleep deprivation.[61][62]
Leptin level is increased by emotional stress.[63]
Leptin level is decreased by increases in testosterone levels and increased by increases in estrogen levels.[64]
Leptin level is chronically reduced by physical exercise training.[65][66][67]
Leptin release is increased by dexamethasone.[68]
Leptin level is increased by insulin.[69]
Leptin levels are paradoxically increased in obesity.[70]


It's time for populist misinformation about 'fructose' to be outed.
Fruit sugars are nothing but fructose so it is misleading in the extreme to demonize the term fructose, as Paleo/LCHF devotees do.

http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/08/09/wh ... -in-fruit/



By all means avoid processed foods of all sorts, but don't buy into fructose per se being evil.