Diet Thread

[mikesbytes]

I totally agree that she hasn't lost 20kg of fat, that wasn't the point of my post. What was interesting was in how she was controlling cravings

[CKinnard]

I totally agree that she hasn't lost 20kg of fat, that wasn't the point of my post. What was interesting was in how she was controlling cravings

Well nothing wrong with an appropriate amount of salt and sugar in your bottle, IF you are doing high intensity, and sweating a lot.

I haven't quite worked out chocolate cravings.
I've never really been bothered by them personally.
They say it's due to the serotonin and dopamine effect, but I am unsure what would help rid one of them.
Nevertheless, a fast as short as 4 days helps many people to be rid of all cravings, even alcohol and cigarettes.
Though I do think a small amount of moderate to high intensity exercise helps to ease cravings, as it gives an adrenalin kick which mobilizes fatty acids and improves insulin sensitivity.

[mikesbytes]

I totally agree that she hasn't lost 20kg of fat, that wasn't the point of my post. What was interesting was in how she was controlling cravings

Well nothing wrong with an appropriate amount of salt and sugar in your bottle, IF you are doing high intensity, and sweating a lot.

I haven't quite worked out chocolate cravings.
I've never really been bothered by them personally.
They say it's due to the serotonin and dopamine effect, but I am unsure what would help rid one of them.
Nevertheless, a fast as short as 4 days helps many people to be rid of all cravings, even alcohol and cigarettes.
Though I do think a small amount of moderate to high intensity exercise helps to ease cravings, as it gives an adrenalin kick which mobilizes fatty acids and improves insulin sensitivity.

I didn't talk to her a lot on the topic, we happened to be walking in the same direction at the same time. What she was doing was having her water bottle with the sports stuff in it with her all the time and when she felt the desire to snack, which was where she mentioned chocolates, she would have some of her drink instead.

I suppose the question in my head was how did it work for her? Was it simply a distraction or did the small quantity of sugar (and possibly salt) satisfy the craving?

Exercise wise she is doing high intensity spin classes

if she can sneak away from work, then tonight the last time I'll see her this year and if I get the chance I'll ask her about the craving management

[Nobody]

...What was interesting was in how she was controlling cravings

Yeah sorry, I missed the point. Yes I find substitution, drink water, intermittent feeding and exercise all helpful. As I've mentioned before, the best type of substitution is progressive. So eventually one ends up substituting in only the healthiest foods.

I haven't quite worked out chocolate cravings.
I've never really been bothered by them personally.
They say it's due to the serotonin and dopamine effect, but I am unsure what would help rid one of them.

Not that I would consider myself a craving victim, especially in recent years. But I find the visualisation of what poison junk food really is to be helpful. Since I wouldn't knowingly eat poison.

Though I do think a small amount of moderate to high intensity exercise helps to ease cravings, as it gives an adrenalin kick which mobilizes fatty acids and improves insulin sensitivity.

It helps me for general hunger. I'm about 700 Cal down today (accidental, ran out of eating time). TBH sometimes I hardly notice that Cal deficiency level after a couple of hours of mild hunger pangs have passed. It's that faint that I have to mentally concentrate on the internal message as to whether I need more food that day. Which is why I find food logging useful. But high intensity exercise kills those hunger pangs dead. I also find drinking like 0.5 L of water during hunger pang periods helps.

I find it interesting that I was once so connected with food when living a standard life, considering how disconnected I am these days.
_________________________________________________________________

I didn't find the following article objectionable. I don't like to call omni focused articles "balanced", but I've certainly read worse.
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health ... 50mqd.html

“Everyone seems to talk only two approaches – high carb, low fat or low carb, high fat. What about neither? Essentially a Mediterranean Diet is moderate fat and moderate carbs … with a focus on delicious enjoyable food shared with friends and family. Hooray to that!”

But they failed to mention that the Mediterranean Diet is 70% effective at reducing coronary events, where a low fat WFPB diet is 99% effective. Just I small detail that's well worth a mention. I personally know a couple who claim to be on the Mediterranean Diet. They still appear to be getting slowly bigger every year. Not dissimilar to those on a standard diet.

[Patt0]

how do you reconcile such a substance is appropriate for human adults?

I not only survived, but am thriving.

Can human breast milk offer guidance on optimal protein intake for children and adults?
Humans never grow faster than in the first 4-6 mths of life. Therefore anabolic need for protein hypothetically would never be higher than in this period.

Protein is not only required for the physical structure but is an important component in metabolism. Same can be said for carbohydrates. Not only are they energy but also are part of structure. Same deal for lipids.

I could go on and on, but I have been out of the loop for a few years. Best to get a recent text book and have a look for yourself.

[mikesbytes]

...What was interesting was in how she was controlling cravings

Yeah sorry, I missed the point. Yes I find substitution, drink water, intermittent feeding and exercise all helpful. As I've mentioned before, the best type of substitution is progressive. So eventually one ends up substituting in only the healthiest foods.

Good point, I didn't think of it at the moment it came up in the conversation. I've suggested in the past that when you feel hunger or craving to have a glass of water first as in many cases that will reduce the food intake desire, ie reduce the risk of over eating.

I haven't quite worked out chocolate cravings.
I've never really been bothered by them personally.
They say it's due to the serotonin and dopamine effect, but I am unsure what would help rid one of them.

Not that I would consider myself a craving victim, especially in recent years. But I find the visualisation of what poison junk food really is to be helpful. Since I wouldn't knowingly eat poison.

Another good idea, could use the phrase "when you get a craving for something, have a think of what's in it and you might find yourself choosing something a little better"

Though I do think a small amount of moderate to high intensity exercise helps to ease cravings, as it gives an adrenalin kick which mobilizes fatty acids and improves insulin sensitivity.

It helps me for general hunger. I'm about 700 Cal down today (accidental, ran out of eating time). TBH sometimes I hardly notice that Cal deficiency level after a couple of hours of mild hunger pangs have passed. It's that faint that I have to mentally concentrate on the internal message as to whether I need more food that day. Which is why I find food logging useful. But high intensity exercise kills those hunger pangs dead. I also find drinking like 0.5 L of water during hunger pang periods helps.

I tend to find that when I under eat that I'm as right as rain then suddenly the hunger hits me big time

I find it interesting that I was once so connected with food when living a standard life, considering how disconnected I am these days.

In your case you were confronted with significant issues, you confronted that and worked as hard as possible to rectify it. Its a pity that the bulk of the population don't have your conviction.

I didn't find the following article objectionable. I don't like to call omni focused articles "balanced", but I've certainly read worse.
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health ... 50mqd.html

“Everyone seems to talk only two approaches – high carb, low fat or low carb, high fat. What about neither? Essentially a Mediterranean Diet is moderate fat and moderate carbs … with a focus on delicious enjoyable food shared with friends and family. Hooray to that!”

But they failed to mention that the Mediterranean Diet is 70% effective at reducing coronary events, where a low fat WFPB diet is 99% effective. Just I small detail that's well worth a mention. I personally know a couple who claim to be on the Mediterranean Diet. They still appear to be getting slowly bigger every year. Not dissimilar to those on a standard diet.

A Chinese friend of mine had a Pakistani friend come to her house and make dinner. To her astonishment he poured an entire litre of olive oil into the dish

[CKinnard]

I not only survived, but am thriving.

As much as your anecdotal experience means to you, science concerns itself with what works for everyone.
And there's epidemics of obesity, allergies, diabetes, autoimmune disease, and autism spectrum diseases that the science doesn't understand.
Science has changed its stance on infants having milk several times in the last 10 years.
Currently, the Aust. Govt via NH&MRC infant feeding guidelines say this about milk.

https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/sites/d ... 130808.pdf
"Any unmodified milk from non-human species, for example
cow’s, goat’s and sheep’s milk is not suitable for human infants,
and should not be given as a main drink before 12 months"

"Cow’s milk should not be given as the main drink to infants
under 12 months, however small amounts may be used in the
preparation of solid foods."


Why so?

- because of the variation in nutrient content, and non human milk correlation with the development of allergies and diabetes type 1.
https://www.diabetesqld.org.au/media-ce ... -milk.aspx
https://www.lenus.ie/handle/10147/617555

- because 65% of the world is lactose intolerant, especially most non Caucasian genotypes.
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance

- because as I touched on above, many people develop lactose intolerance after being weaned or in adulthood.

Protein is not only required for the physical structure but is an important component in metabolism. Same can be said for carbohydrates. Not only are they energy but also are part of structure. Same deal for lipids.

I could go on and on, but I have been out of the loop for a few years. Best to get a recent text book and have a look for yourself.

You mean like these ones in my office currently?
Guytons Textbook of Medical Physiology
Robbins & Cotran Pathologic Basis of Disease
Cecil Essentials of Medicine
Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine
Brukner and Kahns Clinical Sports Medicine
Most are less than 6 years old.

And yes, protein (or amino acids) has many roles apart from tissue structure.
However, science approaches protein needs by measuring serum urea.
In a standard blood test, excess BUN (urea) indicates kidney failure OR high protein intake.
So BUN is cross referenced with creatinine to differentiate.
High BUN and creatinine indicates kidney failure.
High BUN only indicates excessive protein intake, in that the body is unable to utilize it, and it needs to be excreted.

I included above a couple of articles on the maximum amount of protein the body can utilize, and below is an authoritative sports nutrition position stand. Though these are essentially concerned with athletic performance, and not longevity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5477153/
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2017; 14: 20.
International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: protein and exercise

[CKinnard]

A Chinese friend of mine had a Pakistani friend come to her house and make dinner. To her astonishment he poured an entire litre of olive oil into the dish

A meal for 2 or 3 with 1 liter of oil? that's 8840 Calories. I would suggest the pakistani is ill informed.
It would have been horrible for your Chinese friend.


All the to and fro about low carb vs high carb needs a stroke of clarity, which imho is best from longevity studies.
And to date, the Blue Zones reign.

It will likely take another 50 years of diet wars to clarify things from a reductionist perspective, and to ascertain the long term effects of low carb high fat diets. So we all need to go on the best past evidence (Blue Zones and AHSII), or continue confused for the rest of our lives.

[CKinnard]

Just a heads up that there's a movie coming out early 2019, called
The Game Changers.
http://gamechangersmovie.com/

The teaser


It's got a top tier production team behind it, as well as some of the US's top plant based authorities.
It deals with diet particularly for athletes.

David Goldman, who I spent a lot of time with at True North Health, is a top scientific advisor for the movie.

Hopefully, this group will produce more.

BTW, I should add the great majority of athletes who proclaim they are vegans, have not been so all their lives.

It remains to be seen whether a lifelong vegan has a competitive advantage with strength or endurance.
My view is they will struggle due to the anabolic effects of animal produce, which come at the cost of a longer healthier life.
But only time will tell.

[mikesbytes]

The lady with the 20kg weight loss didn't turn up, so I won't see her until mid January at the earliest. It will be interesting to see how she went with her holiday in New York

A Chinese friend of mine had a Pakistani friend come to her house and make dinner. To her astonishment he poured an entire litre of olive oil into the dish

A meal for 2 or 3 with 1 liter of oil? that's 8840 Calories. I would suggest the pakistani is ill informed.
It would have been horrible for your Chinese friend.......

I don't know how big the dish was that got the litre, regardless it was shocking. I highly doubt that he made any consideration for health more so if something is tasty then a heap of it is even more tasty. Many years ago I tried a new Pakistani restaurant near me and the food was so oily I didn't go back.

However it does remind me of the logic that if 100gms of something is good for you, then 1kg of that something is 10 times better for you.

[CKinnard]

I don't know how big the dish was that got the litre, regardless it was shocking. I highly doubt that he made any consideration for health more so if something is tasty then a heap of it is even more tasty. Many years ago I tried a new Pakistani restaurant near me and the food was so oily I didn't go back.

However it does remind me of the logic that if 100gms of something is good for you, then 1kg of that something is 10 times better for you.

I am always dumbfounded when I go to a restaurant and the meals just aren't in the ballpark.
You wonder how they have the gall to run a restaurant if they don't know how to cook, or don't learn from customer feedback.

[Nobody]

I find it interesting that I was once so connected with food when living a standard life, considering how disconnected I am these days.

In your case you were confronted with significant issues, you confronted that and worked as hard as possible to rectify it. Its a pity that the bulk of the population don't have your conviction.

Thanks. I try to live in the real world. So I expect (more) bad health outcomes as time goes on and act in preparation. Most of the population are living in a self excusing, "she'll be 'right" dreamworld, where bad health outcomes only happen to others. That's despite their own parents often having bad health outcomes.

Not much spare time at present. I may reply further later.

[Patt0]

Icecream is full of fat and sugar.

energy. the most important nutrient.

make my own.

Been meaning to. Milk, cream, glucose and cocoa.

I will post my results.

[CKinnard]

Another movie with a preventative health slant to keep your eyes out for....release date US New Year's Day.

https://www.dietfictionmovie.com/

[Baalzamon]

Another movie with a preventative health slant to keep your eyes out for....release date US New Year's Day.

https://www.dietfictionmovie.com/

Looks like another vegan propaganda movie....

[CKinnard]

Another movie with a preventative health slant to keep your eyes out for....release date US New Year's Day.

https://www.dietfictionmovie.com/

Looks like another vegan propaganda movie....

LOL.
It's only propaganda if it interprets the science wrongly.
And there's a need for this type of communication so as to balance the anti science propaganda that pushes lots of animal produce to keep one healthy and strong. Or, don't you see that as propaganda?

[Nobody]

I've suggested in the past that when you feel hunger or craving to have a glass of water first as in many cases that will reduce the food intake desire, ie reduce the risk of over eating.

Yeah, for some of us there is not a lot of difference between hunger and thirst. So it could be just a hydration problem. I have weak thirst signalling to the point I'll get dehydrated if I'm not consciously monitoring my intake. My hunger signals usually aren't strong either in recent years. I wonder if that is another reason why old people get so thin and frail.

...could use the phrase "when you get a craving for something, have a think of what's in it and you might find yourself choosing something a little better"

Yes, a conscious mental manoeuvre to get one's mind to move away from the impulse and to a more conscious thought process. IMO for most people the real battleground is in their mind.

A Chinese friend of mine had a Pakistani friend come to her house and make dinner. To her astonishment he poured an entire litre of olive oil into the dish

Such has been the marketing of olive oil in general that people actually believe it's good for us. And I don't mean just not as bad for us. Some actually go out of their way to add more to food because they believe they will get a benefit. The problem is that the science appears to say that the benefit of a Mediterranean Diet comes from the veg and nuts. Nothing else. So it's not the seafood, or the olive oil. The diet is better despite them.
I was trying to inform a person at work that olive oil wasn't a health food, but such is the illusion of knowledge out there for olive oil, that he didn't believe me. We've been collectively conned/marketed. So I realise now that most of the time the deceived can't be helped. They have closed their minds on the subject of diet. They already know.

[Nobody]

Or, don't you see that as propaganda?

In this post truth era, I think a necessary attribute for success is the ability to be able to work out what is most likely to be truth by dismissing our personal confirmation biases and what we think we already know.

[Nobody]

[Patt0]

I couldn’t watch more than a minute as I find him so irritatingly aggressive. Gladiator effect I guess.

Sugar is good. It is a energy storage solution used by plants so it must be good. Or did I miss something?

[CKinnard]

Sugar is good. It is a energy storage solution used by plants so it must be good. Or did I miss something?

I do tend to find his manner grating too.

Nevertheless, sugar is fat sparing. So if you eat a lot of sugar in your diet, then you won't burn dietary fat or fat stores as much.
This is due in part to
- elevated insulin stimulates fat storage
- elevated insulin inhibits fat utilization for energy by inhibiting hormone sensitive lipase (an enzyme contributing to the breakdown of triglycerides and mobilization of fatty acids).

So if you are trying to lose bodyfat, you should be aiming for lower insulin over each day's 24 hours.
You do this by reducing refined carb (sugars and flour products) intake.


Guyton and Hall Textbook of Medical Physiology
13th edition
p.869

"Acceleration of Fat Utilization for Energy in the
Absence of Carbohydrates.
All the fat-sparing effects of
carbohydrates are lost and actually reversed when carbo-
hydrates are not available. The equilibrium shifts in the
opposite direction, and fat is mobilized from adipose cells
and used for energy in place of carbohydrates.
Also important are several hormonal changes that take
place to promote rapid fatty acid mobilization from adipose
tissue. Among the most important of these hormonal
changes is a marked decrease in pancreatic secretion
of insulin caused by the absence of carbohydrates. This
decrease not only reduces the rate of glucose utilization by
the tissues but also decreases fat storage, which further
shifts the equilibrium in favor of fat metabolism in place of
carbohydrates."

[Baalzamon]

Another movie with a preventative health slant to keep your eyes out for....release date US New Year's Day.

https://www.dietfictionmovie.com/

Looks like another vegan propaganda movie....

LOL.
It's only propaganda if it interprets the science wrongly.
And there's a need for this type of communication so as to balance the anti science propaganda that pushes lots of animal produce to keep one healthy and strong. Or, don't you see that as propaganda?

Look thru all the actors and you will notice they are all vegans.

[CKinnard]

Look thru all the actors and you will notice they are all vegans.

And their critics are carnivores.
But that's not the point, which is the correct interpretation of all of the science.

[rapunzel]

- elevated insulin inhibits fat utilization for energy by inhibiting hormone sensitive lipase (an enzyme contributing to the breakdown of triglycerides and mobilization of fatty acids).

Curious, know anything about breastfeeding?

When I was pumping, I discovered some women have breastmilk that changes and may be rejected by the infant once pumped and stored. From what I gleaned via Google, many said this was due to high lipase in it, breaking down the fats and creating the taste difference.

Does this mean mothers with this problem have more lipase activity I wondered.

And what does this mean for those who burn fat pretty well, crave it, and crave lots ofcarbs, too. Carbs and fat are my preference over protein. (I eat a lot of veg, some fruit)

[CKinnard]

Curious, know anything about breastfeeding?


Comparatively little. But I have worked in the past in pediatrics in hospital, and in a private clinic with specialist care for mothers.
If you live in Brisbane, this clinic runs a free service for infants and mums, where they provide guidance for breastfeeding issues.


When I was pumping, I discovered some women have breastmilk that changes and may be rejected by the infant once pumped and stored. From what I gleaned via Google, many said this was due to high lipase in it, breaking down the fats and creating the taste difference.

Yeah that's a common problem. Depending what you mean by 'the breast milk changes', it could be due to
- high milk content of bile salt-stimulated lipase (BSSL).
- to the mother beginning menstrual cycle and sex hormones changing the flavor of the milk. (the menstrual cycle can start again during breastfeeding).
- other factors I don't know of.

AFAIK, high BSSL doesn't significantly change the flavor when baby is breast fed directly. The BSSL needs time out of the breast to break down the fats in the milk, which changes the flavor and/or lets the milk go rancid.

So in order to differentiate why a baby is rejecting, mum could compare breast feeding vs expressed bottle feeding.

There's also a heating process to neutralize BSSL in expressed milk before storing. But it will likely destroy other beneficial nutrients and factors.


Does this mean mothers with this problem have more lipase activity I wondered.

And what does this mean for those who burn fat pretty well, crave it, and crave lots ofcarbs, too. Carbs and fat are my preference over protein. (I eat a lot of veg, some fruit)

Most of the studies say diet doesn't influence breastmilk quality significantly.
I don't buy this, and neither do some of the best health pros I've worked with who specialize in the area.

I think a reasonable 2 week experiment for a Mum with suspected high BSSL, would be to
- reduce their fat intake and see what diff that made.
- reduce their total Calorie intake, so that they lose post partum or excess fat quicker while breast feeding. I base this on a study I just found showing malnourished women have significantly less BSSL. However, they also have less protein in the milk, so the mum might want to increase her dietary protein % slightly.

I think the take home though is nature intends breast milk to be consumed at the breast, and not expressed for later use.

As for your dietary preferences, these are most due to conditioning....so it depends on what you've been fed since a child.
However, they can change with age and lifestyle.
They can also be due to mind and mood - so stress, anxiety, feelings of insecurity can cause cravings for foods that stimulate feel good neurotransmitters (dopamine and serotonin) in the brain. These foods are carbs (pasta and bread) and fats (e.g. chocolate, bacon, avocado, and eggs).

If you are slim, and crave these foods to excess, then you probably have high levels of brown adipose tissue. If so, you might notice when you eat too much in one sitting your body gets really hot in certain places (around the neck and abdomen), and also get uncomfortable in the gut suddenly.

If you are overweight, and craving these foods, you might try ramping up your vegetable intake (7-10 cups of salad and cooked vege/d), moving to least processed carbs (steamed sweet potato, whole grains).

I can't really say much more knowing so little about you.