Diet Thread

[CKinnard]

As long as you are from China, or Japanese or from Framingham or an American adventist or any other place where a large-scale epidemiological study has taken place and you share the genetics. Then see EPIC-Oxford or ETHRisk or Roseto, or read "Eat, Drink and be healthy". There are no absolutes, there is no black/white when it comes to diet... and stress, genetics, luck etc. etc.

You might read more widely to come in line with the scientific consensus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26853923" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26355190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667136" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677895" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To help clarify HCLF and LCHF, and the effects of each
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11320946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Nobody]

To help clarify HCLF and LCHF, and the effects of each
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11320946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For those who couldn't be bothered reading it. It concludes with:

The BMIs were significantly lower for men and women on the high carbohydrate diet; the highest BMIs were noted for those on a low carbohydrate diet.

[RhapsodyX]

Ah warthog, you missed your calling as a dancer... once again dancing attacking what I say from random angles.

Re. the eskimos, despite many people claiming there is research from the 1970's showing larger livers (not "enlarged"), I couldn't actually find any. That doesn't seem to stop Dr McDougall making assumptions without referencing research either, and quite frankly given his background (PETA) it's the POV I'd expect.

Re. my being "obtuse" when questioning what you mean by "plant based", once again you talk "minimal" and "large quantities" in relation to meat (animal protein). Would you care to set a target value? 10% of calories, 10% by weight? Nearly 50% of my protein comes from plant sources, and less than 10% of my daily kCal comes from protein. I guess that means I'm a carnivore.

Re. cherry picking.
- AIS fat adaptation page. You asked for information on fat adaptation, not about performance impacts. None of the research is current. I pointed you in the direction of recent studies, you didn't want to read them.
- Bilirubin. It was, as I said, an OBSERVATION. You didn't counter this with any evidence I was wrong, you selected a "starved fish" as an example of how it could be diet related. Now, that's an excellent example of cherry picking on your part. At the end of the day - who cares? If you want to start creating new definitions for herbivore/omnivore, no-one else is going to get your POV.
- re. epidemiological studies, long term health blah blah. Those of us on a form of LCHF... DO. NOT. CARE. I read the epidemiological because it is of interest - ie. red meat, dairy and egg consumption. I have never stated LCHF is a "superior diet", it is simply a diet which could be good or bad - same as that individual living on potatoes, that's plant based, isn't it?

Seriously - we "non believers of WFPB being the ONLY way" all get that you can't see past "Knives over Forks" and similar, but your inability to think outside the box is YOUR problem, not mine (ours?).
Over and out on this subject - it's been done to death.

[RhapsodyX]

To help clarify HCLF and LCHF, and the effects of each
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11320946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For those who couldn't be bothered reading it. It concludes with:

The BMIs were significantly lower for men and women on the high carbohydrate diet; the highest BMIs were noted for those on a low carbohydrate diet.

The study is "ancient" in research terms (1994 - 1996 data) and wasn't about anything which could be called "HCLF" or "LCHF" - in the context of this thread. Was the "Low Carb" group with high BMI from the "food pyramid" or "non food pyramid" group? We can't tell because there isn't a public version of the research.

[CKinnard]

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned HCLF PBWF diets are very powerful at stabilizing blood glucose for diabetics (I and IIs)

Here's a screenshot from a T1D mature gent showing the results of his change to a healthier diet.



Edit: have updated the photo to bypass the photobucket prorblem - Mike

[RhapsodyX]

Yet, to reduce CVD risk, you (reportedly - I haven't verified) need to get under 5.2 mmol consistently. Knowing what is possible through other means, those results are not actually impressive - although certainly an improvement.

[warthog1]

Ah warthog, you missed your calling as a dancer... once again dancing attacking what I say from random angles.

And I would say you are a politician. Ignoring consensus opinion/evidence and continuing with broadly unsupported spin

Re. the eskimos, despite many people claiming there is research from the 1970's showing larger livers (not "enlarged"), I couldn't actually find any. That doesn't seem to stop Dr McDougall making assumptions without referencing research either, and quite frankly given his background (PETA) it's the POV I'd expect.

It was you who brought them into the discussion as some bogus example of our evolutionary diet;

...
I have pointed out repeatedly there is no evidence we have evolved eating a LCHF diet

And no-one here on a variation of LCHF has ever claimed that homo sapiens did. Except maybe the eskimo's, but they have larger livers than "general population"... probably evolution for you.

Re. my being "obtuse" when questioning what you mean by "plant based", once again you talk "minimal" and "large quantities" in relation to meat (animal protein). Would you care to set a target value? 10% of calories, 10% by weight? Nearly 50% of my protein comes from plant sources, and less than 10% of my daily kCal comes from protein. I guess that means I'm a carnivore.

There have been any number of examples provided on here by Nobody and others as to what is a healthy diet for longevity. It is you and other lardivores who are making claims to the contrary.
I am simply pointing out that in addition to the lack of long term health studies supporting LCHF there is no evidence our digestive system has evolved eating such a diet and it is therefore counter intuitive to suggest it is somehow an optimal diet for health. It is probably mitigated by the inclusion of plant based material.
It may correct some health problems caused by a diet high in processed crud and a sedentary lifestyle, but there is plenty of evidence a WFPB diet will do the same

Re. cherry picking.
- AIS fat adaptation page. You asked for information on fat adaptation, not about performance impacts. None of the research is current. I pointed you in the direction of recent studies, you didn't want to read them.

The AIS page basically dismisses LCHF as a diet suitable for a competitive cyclist. I didn't see any point looking past that consensus view, given they are at the pointy end of the sport in Australia.

- Bilirubin. It was, as I said, an OBSERVATION. You didn't counter this with any evidence I was wrong, you selected a "starved fish" as an example of how it could be diet related. Now, that's an excellent example of cherry picking on your part. At the end of the day - who cares? If you want to start creating new definitions for herbivore/omnivore, no-one else is going to get your POV.

Let's go back to your original post where you introduced the digestive enzyme as another cherry picked component to try and prove we are adapted toward meat (and fat) eating despite our GIT having far more in common with plant eaters than carnivorous animals. I underlined fish in that article to highlight that it was a response to diet not necessarily an evolutionary adaption. Sheep and cattle are also mentioned as having bile consisting mainly of bilirubin perhaps you care to rationalize that?

Here is my post again;

The effect of free bilirubin on protein digestion by trypsin was further investigated using chymotrypsinogen as the substrate. Bilirubin (10 μmol/l) showed 61% inhibition for the proteolytic activation of α‐chymotrypsinogen A to chymotrypsin in a system containing 1 μg/ml trypsin and 1 μg/ml chymotrypsinogen for 30 min. Digestive proteases are inhibited by free bilirubin but not conjugated bilirubin. As bilirubin is secreted from the bile to the lumen mainly in the conjugated form,2 the digestion of dietary proteins in the upper small intestine would proceed smoothly. Deconjugation of bilirubin by β‐glucuronidase from the mucosal cells3 would form a protective layer on the surface of the gut. A more dramatic deconjugation of bilirubin by the high amounts of β‐glucuronidase from gut bacteria3 would further cause a prompt and effective inactivation of these digestive proteases in the lower intestine. Here we can see the wonderful design of nature that turns a waste byproduct into a precious treasure. The amount of digestive proteases secreted by the pancreas largely depends on the amount of protein in the diet.4 This would provide an explanation for the observation that bilirubin‐predominant species tend to be carnivores or omnivores, while biliverdin‐predominant species tend to be herbivores.2 Large amounts of bilirubin exist in the bile of cats, dogs, opossums, armadillos, alligators, African clawed toads, bullfrogs, mudpuppies, sharks (spiny dogfish), small skates, trout, goosefish, and perch, while biliverdin is the main bile pigment of rabbits, nutrias (rodents that eat water plants), sloths (leaf eaters), birds and tilapia (fish that eat algae).2 Although cattle and sheep are herbivores and their bile consists mainly of bilirubin, the activity of their hepatic biliverdin reductase was just 4–5% of that of the rats,5 and their bile indeed contains certain amounts of biliverdin,2 suggesting that they may be in an intermediary state of transition.

Studies have also shown that bile pigments change from bilirubin to biliverdin in fishes after starvation.6 This further suggests bilirubin is only produced as necessary, which depends in some way on the feeding activities. On the other hand, the energy‐consuming conversion of biliverdin to bilirubin suggests that bilirubin may have an important role for the body. An impairment in inactivation of digestive proteases by deconjugated bilirubin may have a causative role in diseases such as inflammatory bowel disease.7 It would also provide a possible explanation as to why chronic blockage of bile flow in diseases such as primary sclerosing cholangitis is often accompanied by gut damage like inflammatory bowel disease.8 These areas require further investigation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095646/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty slim evidence for us having eveolutionary adaptions toward being meat eaters. Our GIT remain consistent with that of a primarily plant not meat (or fat) eating animal.

Chimpanzees also produce bilirubin and coincidentally if you make them obese, they develop a similar disease profile to that induced by obesity in us.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22330355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RhapsodyX]

Seriously - we "non believers of WFPB being the ONLY way" all get that you can't see past "Knives over Forks" and similar, but your inability to think outside the box is YOUR problem, not mine (ours?).
Over and out on this subject - it's been done to death.

[Nobody]

Michael Mosley: Do We Need Health Tests?

Although the video is not diet related, it has specifics on Michael Mosley's risk factors and the results of his CT scan. This is relative as to why Mosley shouldn't be writing diet books. If his 5:2 or FastDiet isn't fixing his own health problems, why does he think it's OK to profit from the sale of it to others?

There is a guy I know with type 2 diabetes who bought Mosley's most recent diabetes book (even after I said it wasn't worth buying ). I think I'll refer him to this video. Like most people, it probably won't change his mind. But at least he'll be warned.

I'm going to add some of his numbers here from the video, as I couldn't find them on the web and this video may be gone soon.

Age: 57
Total chol: 6.34 (max 5.5)
HDL:2.09
Trig: 1.23
Blood Pressure: 133/84 (pre-high blood pressure)
Waist: 84cm
Height: 5'11" or 180cm (from here)
WHtR: 0.467
BMI: 24 (overweight is 25+)
Calculated risk of having a heart attack in next 10 years: 11.2% (So his GP says he should consider statins.)
CT coronary artery calcification scan with contrast confirms he should be on statins.

Too bad he didn't get hsCRP as well. From the CT results, it should be over 3.

Regardless of his genetics, if his 5:2 FastDiet works so well, he shouldn't have these problems.

[Nobody]

Australian Paradox under fire: Health experts hit out at Sydney Uni sugar study

[CKinnard]

I've been exploring the science behind LCHF diets recently.
Dr. Stephen Phinney is one of its top champions.
In a presentation he produced the chart below which I think is an excellent display of a lot of data.
Note he says the generally agreed cut off for LCHF diets is 30% carbohydrate. So for a 70kg male eating 2400 Cals a day, that's 180 grams of carb.



Edit: I've updated CK's image reference to get around the photobucket problem. cheers Mike

[Nobody]

Thanks for posting CK.

From the chart I wanted to list the median of what Phinney has found as the macronutrient ratios. There may be some parallax errors, so only approximates.

Edited for net carb values.

From high carb to low:

C78:F11:P11 - WFPB
Not listed in chart, just here for comparison.
Mine is about C82:F7:P11 from my spreadsheet. I need to eat a bit more fat by the look of it.

C63:F27:P10 - Ornish
However one study here lists Ornish as, " Ornish diet was highest in carbohydrate (75% of energy) and dietary fiber (67 g/2000 kcal) and lowest in fat (7%), saturated fat (1%), and cholesterol (6 mg/d)".
So C71:F8:P21.

C49:F36:P15 - SAD
Debatable since I've seen it called C40:F40:P20 elsewhere.

C36:F49:P15 - Mediterranean
Debatable. I find it hard to believe that the original poor person's diet from that region in the '50s would have that much fat. It's not far off a low carb diet.

C25:F45:P30 - Paleo

C8:F75:P17 - Keto

One thing that stands out is it tells you little about what is actually eaten.
SAD is effectively an entertainment diet in the middle and the diets get more purposeful as they diverge from there. I don't remember seeing many who claimed to be on the modern Mediterranean diet, who were thin. Seeing the macro explains why.
Anyone who has seen recent photos of Loren Cordain or Sally Fallon (Paleo book authors) should see that Paleo is not ideal for long term weight loss.

[CKinnard]

i'd like to see that chart re-structured so fat% is on the Y axis.

meanwhile the bogeymen revealed are
- Paleo protein%
- ketogenic fat%.

As I keep saying, large sample longevity studies are the most powerful nutritionally, and neither Paleo or ketogenic is backed by such. In fact, the sole advantage of these approaches is to compensate insulin dysregulation after poor diet has blown out bodyfat % and caused insulin resistance.

I would argue that people who are unable to adapt to a HCLF PBWF diet also suffer from dysregulation of their appetite in that they do not like fibrous carbs and fruit. Without exception, every obese person I have insight into the diet of, does not like these, and replaces them with more energy dense foods.

Anyway, until there are large numbers of humans who have been eating keto for multiple generations, the science is unlikely to know the relative pros and cons of low carb diets.

[Baalzamon]

i'd like to see that chart re-structured so fat% is on the Y axis.

meanwhile the bogeymen revealed are
- Paleo protein%
- ketogenic fat%.

As I keep saying, large sample longevity studies are the most powerful nutritionally, and neither Paleo or ketogenic is backed by such. In fact, the sole advantage of these approaches is to compensate insulin dysregulation after poor diet has blown out bodyfat % and caused insulin resistance.

Anyway, until there are large numbers of humans who have been eating keto for multiple generations, the science is unlikely to know the relative pros and cons of low carb diets.

And here is why and this

Simply a report that was written then never published due to fat becoming Enemy #1

I think the only thing vegan/paleo/primal/keto etc can only agree on. Is refined sugar is bad. Processed foods containing hidden sugars are bad.

Btw Nobody my CRP was 4.0 and I'm finding out why. More blood tests done and something has come back elevated. I won't know for 2 weeks.

[RhapsodyX]

Thanks for posting CK.

From the chart I wanted to list the median of what Phinney has found as the macronutrient ratios.

Hi Nobody - you have missed the point with LCHF/VLCHF/VLCKHF : there are no ratios. Carbohydrate and Protein intake are related to individual tolerance for Carbohydrates and g/kg lean body mass for Protein. Carbohydrates are also "net" values - Carbohydrate less Fibre grams.

[RhapsodyX]

Btw Nobody my CRP was 4.0 and I'm finding out why. More blood tests done and something has come back elevated. I won't know for 2 weeks.

4.0 is the lower limit for CRP testing, did it actually say 4.0 or "< 4.0"? Was it a CRP or a hsCRP test?

[Nobody]

Hi RhapsodyX,

Baalzamon indicated earlier it was hsCRP. His earlier cholesterol tests seemed to indicate he was less suited to the keto style of diet than you. But as you know, the most accurate indicator was going to be an inflammation test. Just out of curiosity since your other cholesterol numbers are so good, have you had your hsCRP tested? I'd assume not, being younger.

Previous post edited for net carb values. I used to use net values but found most others used gross values, so now I think in gross terms usually.

As you know, low carbers see carbs as the focus, high carbers see fat as the focus. So I can understand why the chart is written the way it is. I'm just adding what high carbers or PB people would find interesting to see. I think we can agree that a large percentage of both fat and carbs together with plenty of processed foods are going to give the worst results for most. As the world wide export of the American diet is showing.

The Ornish diet isn't vegan and that is why the protein is higher. I think we also can agree that high protein is not ideal. From the pics of Ornish, his body shape isn't ideal either. When my (plant) protein was up to 1.4g/kg RW, I appeared to be adding weight too.


Hi Baalzamon,

Thanks for posting the result.

Urinating competitions aside, I hope you sort it out. Make sure you get another test if you can while feeling healthy, to confirm. It may also be some other cause for the inflammation, rather than arterial. If you can't get another hsCRP test, or it comes back high again, it's probably worth getting a CT coronary artery calcification screening test done without the (radioactive) contrast, just to know for sure. The result that comes back is just a number. Working with older people, I know a number of people who have had it done already.

If it all goes badly then at least you know of a diet that can stop atherosclerosis. Keto isn't going to suit everyone long term.
Come over the the light side. (Or the dark side to you)

[RhapsodyX]

Just out of curiosity since your other cholesterol numbers are so good, have you had your hsCRP tested? I'd assume not, being younger.

Unfortunately - no. My doctor was unwilling to provide a referral for a hsCRP as it's not a medicare item and could therefore turn the entire set of tests into 'billed', and I'm unwilling to visit my doctor and fund his next car. But... later this year.

I had my lipids tested the other day as part of a research project, the total cholesterol was 5.6, but the HDL was above 2.6 which was the limit of the machine so LDL wasn't reported. Triglycerides was reportedly 1.3, which is "normal" - but not for me!

Re, %'s vs absolute - the only worry I have is that a lot of LCHF people work off the percentages without realising that it's NOT the way it is supposed to be done. As for protein g/kg, it's also important to keep total grams per meal down as excess protein will be converted to glucose, the limit is (reportedly) somewhere between 20g and 30g of protein. Protein taken before or during exercise also doesn't seem to contribute to muscle repair, so higher doses of protein should be post exercise. I struggle to keep my protein down - I regularly need to consume > 4000kCal a day and keeping both protein and carbs under control is a struggle.

[CKinnard]

And here is why and this

Simply a report that was written then never published due to fat becoming Enemy #1

I think the only thing vegan/paleo/primal/keto etc can only agree on. Is refined sugar is bad. Processed foods containing hidden sugars are bad.

Hang on. If historical perspective is pertinent, then take note of the only longitudinal studies done to date where LESS animal produce including fat is positively associated with lower bodyfat %, less insulin resistance and diabetes, and less cardiovascular disease.....let alone less everything else inflammation related.....and that's before we get into diet:cancer diet:GUT pathology links.
And the longitudinal studies involve people of an age that precedes the onslaught of fast food that began in the 70s.

And yes refined and highly processed carbs (=simpler sugars like white flour and orange juice) are not good in general but specifically for the relatively sedentary and stressed. Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

The other common ground the two camps have is that we all need to ensure we get LOTS of fibrous carbs, and 98% of Westerners don't.

As for saturated fats, I am going with mature studies that show a disturbing drop in the outcome of the brachial artery reactivity test after high saturated fat meals, and the intima-media thickness test for years of the same. Both these tests indicate early damage to the endothelium of the arteries = atherosclerosis, the cause of cardiovascular disease.

[Nobody]

I'd like to see that chart re-structured so fat% is on the Y axis.

Me too. That's why I did the numbers.

meanwhile the bogeymen revealed are
- Paleo protein%
- ketogenic fat%.

I would argue that people who are unable to adapt to a HCLF PBWF diet also suffer from dysregulation of their appetite in that they do not like fibrous carbs and fruit. Without exception, every obese person I have insight into the diet of, does not like these, and replaces them with more energy dense foods.

I don't know how they couldn't like fruit. Seems odd to me, but obviously these people exist. Years ago I didn't eat a lot of fruit either. Maybe it's also about the perception that fruit and veg are expensive. Do they elaborate?
As for cruciferous, I'm trying to get more than 300g/d of broccoli, which is usually about a whole head and stalk bought from the supermarket.

Re, %'s vs absolute - the only worry I have is that a lot of LCHF people work off the percentages without realising that it's NOT the way it is supposed to be done. As for protein g/kg, it's also important to keep total grams per meal down as excess protein will be converted to glucose, the limit is (reportedly) somewhere between 20g and 30g of protein. Protein taken before or during exercise also doesn't seem to contribute to muscle repair, so higher doses of protein should be post exercise. I struggle to keep my protein down - I regularly need to consume > 4000kCal a day and keeping both protein and carbs under control is a struggle.

Thanks for the reply about the hsCRP test.

I can see why keeping protein and carbs down with that intake would be difficult. I'll take on board trying to keep the protein intake even and low. By the look of my spreadsheet, if I keep the beans low again, it shouldn't be a problem. 1.1g/kg RW is my norm.

[RhapsodyX]

... Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

Except for all of those endurance athletes with Type II & having heart attacks. I was chatting to another cyclist the other night (research group), he'd just found out at the bio session in the morning that his fasting blood glucose for that morning was 6.2. Fit guy in his early 30's.

[Baalzamon]

[ Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

Yes they can do. All depends on what simple carbs they eat.
I'm a past endurance cyclist. Talking 400km riding in a day. I was snacking on 70% dark chocolate and next morning my glucose had shot to 5.6 which tells me I was definitely pre diabetic before I started on my keto path. Hate to think what a bag of snakes did to me... but I know it was a sugar rollercoaster.

[CKinnard]

... Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

Except for all of those endurance athletes with Type II & having heart attacks. I was chatting to another cyclist the other night (research group), he'd just found out at the bio session in the morning that his fasting blood glucose for that morning was 6.2. Fit guy in his early 30's.

Let me spell it out:
Endurance athletes consume far greater than average simple refined carbs, like gels, electrolyte drinks, sports bars, and a higher portion of junk food (pizza, lollies, sweet desserts, fruit juices). This is to make up for their higher energy expenditure.
Endurance athletes have a lower than average rate of diabetes and insulin resistance.

Please expand on the sporting history of the guy above, and his diet.

[CKinnard]

[ Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

Yes they can do. All depends on what simple carbs they eat.
I'm a past endurance cyclist. Talking 400km riding in a day. I was snacking on 70% dark chocolate and next morning my glucose had shot to 5.6 which tells me I was definitely pre diabetic before I started on my keto path. Hate to think what a bag of snakes did to me... but I know it was a sugar rollercoaster.

5.6 is not elevated, and especially if you are over 30. (5.5 is considered the rubbery upper level of normal fasting blood glucose).
further fasting BG is going to be shot after a big ride. review effect of stress on cortisol and its effect on blood glucose.

[Baalzamon]

[ Endurance athletes don't have an issue with simple carbs.

Yes they can do. All depends on what simple carbs they eat.
I'm a past endurance cyclist. Talking 400km riding in a day. I was snacking on 70% dark chocolate and next morning my glucose had shot to 5.6 which tells me I was definitely pre diabetic before I started on my keto path. Hate to think what a bag of snakes did to me... but I know it was a sugar rollercoaster.

5.6 is not elevated, and especially if you are over 30. (5.5 is considered the rubbery upper level of normal fasting blood glucose).
further fasting BG is going to be shot after a big ride. review effect of stress on cortisol and its effect on blood glucose.

For me 5.6 is elevated when my norm is around 4.0
Immediately after a ride my glucose is for example 4.4 Fast forward an hr and it's dropped to 3.2 and my ketones have shot to over 4.0