Diet Thread

[CKinnard]

The Meniere's disease initially gave me a scare at 39 yo. Now that I've also got hemochromatosis and a strong possible genetic predisposition to both strokes and leukemia, it keeps me pushing on.

I don't think you have discussed MD much before. If you feel inclined, I'd be interested in your history and symptoms, particularly whether you feel episodes have decreased in frequency or intensity since you have reduced weight and cleaned up diet. Klaper and Goldhammer said tinnitus often abates or disappears when water fasting. And personally, I know of three vertigo (2BPPV and 1 MVA whiplash) clients whose symptoms went into remission after cleansing their diet and losing weight.

There is a theory that endolymph can become more viscous on a poor diet, which adversely effects fluid dynamics especially volume, and motion sensing in the semicircular canals.

Further, the viscosity, volume, and turnover of utricle gel in which calcium carbonate crystals (otoconia) are supposed to remain embedded should be theoretically influenced by hydration state, atherosclerosis, autonomic tone, and waste removal systems (venous and lymphatic drainage).

Hearing is very heavily reliant on ionic state of endolymph, with a high concentration of potassium required (to retain a high electrical potential difference with hair cells.)

Eustachian tube blockages have also been related to MD and tinnitus, and it is common for sinus and tube congestion to clear when people lose weight and clean their diet of foods more likely to irritate mucous membranes (wheat and dairy).

Anyway, MD and vertigo are conditions I have a keen interest in.

[Nobody]

I don't think you have discussed MD much before.

That's because no-one has expressed interest in it. Also I don't like discussing it that much as it's yet another detraction from my quality of life that I can't change.

If you feel inclined, I'd be interested in your history and symptoms, particularly whether you feel episodes have decreased in frequency or intensity since you have reduced weight and cleaned up diet.

Not really inclined, but since you ask:

Got my first symptoms at work when I thought I was having a stroke or similar. Ambulance called. I had to be helped to it as I couldn't walk. The spin was there, but only one ear, which probably is the case for most people. So main symptoms were nausea and loss of balance during the attack. The other common symptoms which are permanent in my case are hearing loss and tinnitus. The tinnitus is probably at -40 dBA. Lower in level than someone's speech, but loud enough in quiet environments. It affects my total hearing since I can't totally screen it out.

Initially I would get attacks more than once a day. They also used to induce panic attacks, so caused me to have suicidal tendancies. As I felt like I was going to die more than once I day, I just hoped I would die and get it over with. This dissipated over the months until I got them every few months, but no longer with panic attacks. They would typically last for about half an hour. I could tell they were about to happen as I'd feel quite unwell before, but couldn't tell why. Once the attack was over, I'd feel quite normal again.

The attacks started in January 2008 I think. That April I needed to go to hospital again for tachycardia with a resting heart rate of 150 bpm. I presented first to the doctor, then to emergency. Then I was transferred to the cardiac section. Given a Valium and observed for 22 hours before finally being released by the specialist. I still had a resting heart rate of 137 when released. A short time later I did a number of tests at the specialist who found my heart missed a beat occasionally like 5% of all people. He said the people with this condition don't usually get heart disease. Anyway that was 2008 and I decided to take up doing activities again to get some exercise. That led me back to cycling. I've always had a relatively high resting heart rate of usually around 70. Lately it has been between 60 and 70. Why this might be related is there are commonly two caused for MD according to the specialist. One is from deformations internally. The other is nerve damage. I had a CT scan for my nerve but this came back negative. Having said that I've had more than one MTB crash head first into trees and have got life long neck and nerve damage from them in the top of my neck. The nerves that go to the ear also pass through this point. On top of that, my father also has strong hearing loss in his left ear, so there may be genetic influences also.

More importantly has the diet helped? Like most things, yes, but it's hard to say how much. Attacks are usually less than annually now and are much less noticeable. I can usually function though them and have needed to at work. The worst is I may look a bit drunk in movement while having an attack. I still have quite poor hearing overall, tinnitus and a fullness in the ear like after swimming are a constant and still there. As I've said before, the main things I've noticed that improve with diet are a calmer mood and less knee pain. The knee pain is probably also to do with better bike fit and more off the bike exercises. A number of marginal gains put together. But I'd say the biggest one is diet. Everything else to do with diet other than blood test can arguably be marginal at best. And since it takes many months to years to perceive a change, it can only be noticed by remembering back far enough. Another confounding factor is I'm approaching 49 yo. So I may be improving, but also aging reasonably quickly at this age. But on the other hand I may not have noticed much of anything if I'd changed my diet at 20 yo.

As can be seen from my recent posts, I seemed to have drawn a short straw when it comes to many aspects of health. So I'm more likely to benefit more from a diet change than most. And I can understand the position of the healthy who choose to continue to abuse their health until they have a problem. It just would be nice if they didn't attack me for my choices. That is why I tend to take a hard line lately on anyone who insidiously questions me about my diet in the real world. My attitude is they should both get educated and mind their own business.

[Nobody]

New Tel Aviv University research suggests that periods of fasting or starvation may significantly shorten the lifespans of both children and their male descendants.
The research paper.

Thanks for posting.

"...And would fasting regimens exerting beneficial effects be accompanied by telomere shortening in descendants?"

Like a lot observational studies, it may point to something. But the question above is still unanswered.

Not a problem for those not wanting to have children. Or like me, finished having children. But if fasting was shown to shorten my own telomeres, then that would affect my decisions about possible future fasting.

[CKinnard]

Thanks for the hx Nobody. MD has a comparatively high suicide rate, and I have a lot of patience for clients who present with it. It is certainly the most interesting condition I see. I don't know of any case where there hasn't been significant cervical spine issues, ipsilaterally, which is significant considering it is a disease of more than one system!! Vascular, endolymph fluid dynamics, and autonomic nerve considerations cannot be overlooked easily.

[Nobody]

Aussies confused by fad diets: Stanton

With about two thirds of the Australian population overweight or obese, the "elephant in the room" is the amount of junk food Australians still eat, she says.

On average, 35 per cent of a person's daily calorie intake comes from junk food, for children it's more than 40 per cent.

"We have got to get back to eating real food again, and it has to start with children."

Although "starting with children" is a great plan, everyone needs the dietary education and encouragement urgently. Most people don't really understand good diet structure, or the huge impact it can have on health and general wellness. If they all know what I know now, then the whole situation would change, including for many children. Of course there would still be a large percentage of people who won't be able to drag themselves away from their addictive foods. Just like there are still smokers now. But if the knowledge was ubiquitous, then many would be changing to some degree. Food industries profit on misinformation and ignorance.

Dr Stanton says most families who eat poorly do so because their kids are fussy eaters and studies have shown that if children get involved in the growing and preparation of vegetables they start eating them.

I think the main reason they won't eat veg is that their taste buds have been corrupted by addictive junk foods.

She says people become obese as a result of a whole range of little things that all add up and that's the way the community needs to tackle it.

The might be a range of things involved, but the primary one is food selection. As McDougall says, "It's the food". As CK would say, this has stemmed from a societal values change over the last 30 years or so.

Although I don't agree with everything Rosemary Stanton says, I think she has a lot of good advice.

[Nobody]

Aust govt must act now on obesity: AMA

From this article it looks like that AMA has got it right and the government has got it wrong. No surprise since the government usually has to answer to the food industries.

https://ama.com.au/position-statement/obesity-2016

I'm surprised that the AMA is concerned enough about obesity to release a statement on it. They have some good ideas under "Nutritional Measures" too. I thought the AMA might be more like the US authorities who have opposed the education of doctors in respect to diet. After all, obesity is a big money spinner for doctors because of the higher incidence of chronic diseases.

[Nobody]

A mouse study showing what has been suspected, that fasting helps with only certain types of cancer.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 133654.htm

Another mouse study that may be of some interest to those on a high fat diet as a possible indicator only. It shows higher cancer spread with a certain fatty acid added to the diet.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 132117.htm

They went on to test a specific saturated fatty acid called palmitic acid -- a major component of animal and vegetable fats and present at high levels in palm oil which is used in many house hold products from peanut butter and processed food to toothpaste. The researchers treated human oral tumours with palmitic acid for two days then injected them into mice fed a standard diet. The team observed that all the mice with CD36 developed cancer spread compared to only half when not treated with palmitic acid.

[Baalzamon]

Unfortunately they are mouse studies and not human studies. And it is so unfortunate that we are not mighty mouse.

[RhapsodyX]

...
Another mouse study that may be of some interest to those on a high fat diet as a possible indicator only. It shows higher cancer spread with a certain fatty acid added to the diet.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 132117.htm

They went on to test a specific saturated fatty acid called palmitic acid -- a major component of animal and vegetable fats and present at high levels in palm oil which is used in many house hold products from peanut butter and processed food to toothpaste. The researchers treated human oral tumours with palmitic acid for two days then injected them into mice fed a standard diet. The team observed that all the mice with CD36 developed cancer spread compared to only half when not treated with palmitic acid.

Yes, there's a lot of good science going on in that area. I'd read the article & abstract, but I'm working "stupid hours" at the moment and didn't have time to post anything here. There's also some related research linking saturated fats to the aggressive spread of prostate cancer (additional info here), which mentions :

In addition, they found that higher levels of polyunsaturated fats, which are found in foods such as fish and nuts, were linked to lower levels of prostate cancer aggressiveness.

And this one as well.

I suspect if they pulled apart the dietary intakes by specific fatty acids, they might also find it's the long chain saturated fatty-acids.

[CKinnard]

I'm surprised that the AMA is concerned enough about obesity to release a statement on it. They have some good ideas under "Nutritional Measures" too. I thought the AMA might be more like the US authorities who have opposed the education of doctors in respect to diet. After all, obesity is a big money spinner for doctors because of the higher incidence of chronic diseases.

Nobody, I honestly don't see a lot of intellectual effort has gone into the AMA's Obesity 2016 statement. It's just a grab bag of ideas that has been floating around for 20+ years i.e. 10 years ago, ALL these ideas were thrown around at the Queensland Govt's Obesity Summit.

Seriously, before government starts throwing lots of dollars and prohibitive laws around, there needs to be better understanding of whether such initiatives are likely to work, or actually address the cause of obesity.

To help clarify, let's look at some sub cohorts within Australian society exposed to the same obesogenic town planning, the same supermarkets, the same GPs, the same schools.....but have significantly less obesity! There's two large cohorts I am familiar with, both over 2000 people, and both having obvious obesity and overweight rates very significantly below the national average. What are those cohorts -
1. attendees at a Brisbane Seventh Day Adventist multi day conference
2. attendees at a Brisbane Jehovah's Witness convention

To counter the influence of obesogenic environs, we could look at the obesity rate of Singapore, which is unarguably more obesogenic than Australian capital cities. It's rate is 11% compared to Australia's 28%. Singaporeans have for all practical purposes, the same food choices as Australians - check the number of McDonald's outlets~! https://www.mcdonalds.com.sg/locate-us/

What people put in their mouths and what parents put in the mouths of their children is unlikely to be as amenable to State control as big govt types think.

[Nobody]

And this one as well.

I suspect if they pulled apart the dietary intakes by specific fatty acids, they might also find it's the long chain saturated fatty-acids.

Thanks for posting.

I thought this quote from the article was interesting.

That short-term study also found that the men on the low-fat fish oil diet were able to change the composition of their cell membranes in both the healthy cells and the cancer cells in the prostate. They had increased levels of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil and decreased levels of the more pro-inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids from corn oil in the cell membranes, which may directly affect the biology of the cells, Aronson said.

"These studies are showing that, in men with prostate cancer, you really are what you eat," Aronson said. "The studies suggest that by altering the diet, we may favorably affect the biology of prostate cancer."

There seems to be some studies recently showing the importance of omega-3 fats. One reason I want to make sure my resultant levels of EPA & DHA are high enough. I'll probably try for that test in January as I'm getting bled tomorrow and I believe it takes 3 weeks for the blood volume to return to normal.

[Nobody]

Nobody, I honestly don't see a lot of intellectual effort has gone into the AMA's Obesity 2016 statement. It's just a grab bag of ideas that has been floating around for 20+ years i.e. 10 years ago, ALL these ideas were thrown around at the Queensland Govt's Obesity Summit.

Fair enough. New to me, but obviously not to you.

Seriously, before government starts throwing lots of dollars and prohibitive laws around, there needs to be better understanding of whether such initiatives are likely to work, or actually address the cause of obesity.

True. Not that it's stopped them from throwing around money ineffectively before...
My thought was the same amount of money focusing on curbing obesity would be better money spent in the long term than spending extra giving help to the resultant problems. An ounce of prevention...
Having said that, money spent on curbing obesity is probably going to be inefficient anyway.

To help clarify, let's look at some sub cohorts within Australian society exposed to the same obesogenic town planning, the same supermarkets, the same GPs, the same schools.....but have significantly less obesity! There's two large cohorts I am familiar with, both over 2000 people, and both having obvious obesity and overweight rates very significantly below the national average. What are those cohorts -
1. attendees at a Brisbane Seventh Day Adventist multi day conference
2. attendees at a Brisbane Jehovah's Witness convention

Other than the spiritual views that are both different to the mainstream and each other, there are some differences worth mentioning:
1. As you know, SDAs are encouraged to move toward a vegan diet. Sure you can still be a fat vegan, but it's harder to do if you make a reasonable effort to be healthy-ish.
2. From what I know of JWs, they don't have any dietary guidelines that would effect obesity. But they are encouraged to not get a high level of education and therefore are more likely to be be doing active trades or manual labor jobs. Also they do their door to door work, which is another form of activity.

To counter the influence of obesogenic environs, we could look at the obesity rate of Singapore...

There are genetic differences which may influence obesity in this case. I don't know many obese Asians. Although diet is likely a factor, I don't think it's the only one. But I get your point. There are cultural differences. Like there are cultural differences between the richest and poorest suburbs in Sydney. The richer ones having the lowest obesity.

What people put in their mouths and what parents put in the mouths of their children is unlikely to be as amenable to State control as big govt types think.

But they do have influence in what is taught in schools in regard to diet and what is served in their canteens.
This is where certain food industries have already won. They've spent a lot of time and money changing peoples diets and it may never get better from here.

[CKinnard]

I will be interested to see how the gubmint is going to do anything innovative when tax revenue is going backwards in real per capita terms. Suppose they can always take money away from hospitals and reduce medicare rebates!

[Nobody]

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/egg-ind ... -and-tmao/

[CKinnard]

absolutely amazing. ethics across the board are down the gurglar these days.

[Nobody]

I suppose that's to be expected when most of the research money comes from industry these days. I can see a need for more regulation in research.

[Baalzamon]

More bad science that has not looked at the whole picture and just looked thru a window at a small snapshot.
https://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tm ... t-disease/

[AUbicycles]

Admin Says:

A polite report has been received about a link/resource (regarding context or source credibility). There are different opinions and experiences shared in the discussions and dilemma of moderation is that it may be, or appear to be biased when a topic is so information rich and hotly debated.

The appropriate approach is probably to discuss the different views in a respectful manner, in this case it could, for example, be noted that the information / resource does not appear relevant or reliable (for whatever reason).

Thanks for highlighting this, I trust that the active participants can form their own views, can evaluate the source / content and share in a positive discussion.

Cheers
Christopher

[CKinnard]

More bad science that has not looked at the whole picture and just looked thru a window at a small snapshot.
https://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tm ... t-disease/

Mr Kresser isn't above cherry picking the literature to suit the Paleo narrative (which he earns his living from), and based on his education, I question whether he is capable.

i.e.

1. in the referenced article
"For example, a meta-analysis of prospective studies involving a total of 474,000 participants followed from 8 to 22 years published in the British Medical Journal found no association between higher egg consumption (up to one per day) and CHD or stroke. (9)"

really? Kresser refers to "up to one egg per day" as "higher egg consumption"?
then what's he refer to egg consumption beyond that level for which CHD and stroke rate does increase in the paper he is apparently citing (considering the citation link is broken)?

2.
Kresser has misrepresented the science re this topic by not acknowledging the findings of large longitudinal studies which are better at discovering diet/disease associations.

[Nobody]

More bad science that has not looked at the whole picture and just looked thru a window at a small snapshot.
https://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tm ... t-disease/

Finally, as I pointed out above, some research suggests that consuming large amounts of whole grain increase Prevotella bacteria in the gut, which were associated with the highest levels of TMAO in Dr. Hazen’s previous study on TMAO. If this is the case, consuming large amounts of fiber from whole grains may actually increase the risk of heart disease.

Being paleo, it's not surprising that he's trying to vilify whole grains as a cause of TMAO. I eat at least 2 serves of whole grains every day, yet my hsCRP is 0.4. If my TMAO was up even a little bit, I can't see how I'd get such a low reading.

[RhapsodyX]

More bad science that has not looked at the whole picture and just looked thru a window at a small snapshot.
https://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tm ... t-disease/

Finally, as I pointed out above, some research suggests that consuming large amounts of whole grain increase Prevotella bacteria in the gut, which were associated with the highest levels of TMAO in Dr. Hazen’s previous study on TMAO. If this is the case, consuming large amounts of fiber from whole grains may actually increase the risk of heart disease.

Being paleo, it's not surprising that he's trying to vilify whole grains as a cause of TMAO. I eat at least 2 serves of whole grains every day, yet my hsCRP is 0.4. If my TMAO was up even a little bit, I can't see how I'd get such a low reading.

I'm just going to point out that you are engaging in "shooting the messenger". Kresser, who you are saying is unreliable because he is associated with "Paleo" (personally - I have no idea, I have no interest in following any of the "diet personalities"), is merely referencing research by Dr Stanley Hazen. We are not talking "fringe opinion", it is peer reviewed science. If you have evidence that Dr Hazen is biased or can find alternative research that disagrees - you should quote it.

[RhapsodyX]

More bad science that has not looked at the whole picture and just looked thru a window at a small snapshot.
https://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tm ... t-disease/

Mr Kresser isn't above cherry picking the literature to suit the Paleo narrative (which he earns his living from), and based on his education, I question whether he is capable.

i.e.

1. in the referenced article
"For example, a meta-analysis of prospective studies involving a total of 474,000 participants followed from 8 to 22 years published in the British Medical Journal found no association between higher egg consumption (up to one per day) and CHD or stroke. (9)"

really? Kresser refers to "up to one egg per day" as "higher egg consumption"?
then what's he refer to egg consumption beyond that level for which CHD and stroke rate does increase in the paper he is apparently citing (considering the citation link is broken)?

2.
Kresser has misrepresented the science re this topic by not acknowledging the findings of large longitudinal studies which are better at discovering diet/disease associations.

Pot, kettle?

[Nobody]

I'm just going to point out that you are engaging in "shooting the messenger". Kresser, who you are saying is unreliable because he is associated with "Paleo" (personally - I have no idea, I have no interest in following any of the "diet personalities"), is merely referencing research by Dr Stanley Hazen. We are not talking "fringe opinion", it is peer reviewed science. If you have evidence that Dr Hazen is biased or can find alternative research that disagrees - you should quote it.

In the end, the convincing evidence that whole grains does harm or "may actually increase the risk of heart disease" has to be produced by those who make the claim. I don't have to produce evidence to the contrary since I'm not making a claim in this instance. I'm just flagging doubt, with a reason for that doubt. Which I'm entitled to do.

I'm sure someone can come up with some evidence. But I doubt it will be enough to convince me to stop me eating whole grains.

Since you're a big veg eater on your keto diet, I'd be interested to know your hsCRP. Did you ever get it tested?

[CKinnard]

Pot, kettle?

You referenced what, 9 abstracts of a total 257,000 papers on gall bladder disease; and are not educated in fundamental pathophysiology or stats sufficiently to weight appropriately what you read. I advised you to elaborate the mechanisms that cause gall bladder disease, particularly the role of the autonomic nervous system in its control over gall bladder emptying and sphincter of Oddi motility. If you were genuinely intent on comprehending the cause of gall bladder disease, rather than gloating about reading 8 abstracts, you might have learned something worth your time and effort, especially with your medical history. I could elaborate but you give the distinct impression it's not about learning for you, but brownie points.

[CKinnard]

(personally - I have no idea, I have no interest in following any of the "diet personalities"), is merely referencing research by Dr Stanley Hazen. We are not talking "fringe opinion", it is peer reviewed science. If you have evidence that Dr Hazen is biased or can find alternative research that disagrees - you should quote it.

Do you understand what bias is Rhap? It seems not. If you criticize a study, and use a portion of all studies in the field, selectively, to base your criticism, that's bias. And that's what Kris Kresser did, and does habitually. Further, he does not display advanced comprehension of pathophysiological states, which is why his therapies for the universe of human morbidities is so limited. This is what happens when your health education doesn't include intensive time in hospitals dealing with acute and chronic illness across the life cycle, and you don't liaise regularly with health professionals across multiple disciplines. Medical practice doesn't all come from published studies, mate. The Australian Research Council and NH&MRC don't have limitless funds to keep reductionist lab boffins permanently beavering away....more like just shy of 1% of GDP. Remember that next time you do a lit search.