Diet Thread

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march83
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:26 pm

Baalzamon wrote: I used to find black coffee bitter, or it could have just be the person making the it being a bad coffee maker :lol:
Riiight, sorry... Yep I noticed something similar when I did Keto for a year or 2. Sweet was unpalatable. Savoury became much more enjoyable. Bitter and sour became more enjoyable.

Seems the changes have hung around though, so maybe the changes were largely mental.

It's interesting though that the taste signalling for bitter/sour = bad (ie for poisonous, toxic substances) is somewhat muted by eating high fat/low carb - I wonder if there's any significance, evolutionary or otherwise in that...

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:28 pm

Another rock in the bag carried by those who propagandize that obesity is beautiful and healthy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -risk.html

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:Another rock in the bag carried by those who propagandize that obesity is beautiful and healthy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -risk.html
Thanks for posting CK.

For those who don't want to click on the article.
Title:
Being fat at ANY time in life raises early death risk: People who are 'severely obese' raise chance of dying within 12 years by 73%
Findings:
Those who had a peak body mass index (BMI) of 25 to 30 – classed as overweight – had a 6 per cent increased risk of death from any cause within the next 12 years, they found.
Those classed as obese with a BMI between 30 and 35 had a 24 per cent higher risk of dying in the same time frame. The increased chance of death in the next dozen years was 73 per cent for the ‘severely obese’ with a BMI of more than 35.

One I saved and posted before which has a similar theme.
’Healthy obesity’ doesn’t last
A total of 2521 men and women between the ages of 39 and 62 were followed for the study that measured their body mass index, cholesterol, blood pressure, fasting plasma glucose and insulin resistance.
A total of 181 participants were initially classified as obese, including 66 who were considered “healthy obese”.
By the time the two decades had passed, just over half of the healthy obese people had become unhealthy obese. Only 11 per cent of those who were obese at the start of the study lost kilos and reached normal weight.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:21 pm

This weeks Tuesday eat out lunch fast food analysis came with me being a bit under the weather so I didn't feel like embarking on a new adventure so I returned to Nandos to try the vegetarian option. At 1200Kj there's not a lot of food options that have less. However I was a little surprised at the sizing, it was a bit small. It was a mushroom pita pocket with tabouli.The quality and taste were excellent but I feel that the reason it has 2/3rds the Kj of the burgers is because it is 2/3rd's the size, great if you just want a snack but a bit small if you are looking for a meal and at $9.75 its the same price as the burger. Perhaps I should of tried one of the 1800Kj vegetarian options and will at a future date
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:08 pm

Mike, why don't you take lunch on Tuesdays?
If you are trying to stay under 300 Cals,
1/2 cup legumes
1 cup sweet potato
4 cups of vege or salad
I've been having a lot of that recently for lunch or dinner.
A small spurt of sweet chili sauce, tomato sauce, etc can get you through the bland adaptive period for not many Calories.

As soon as you go down the bread route, you are compromising food volume and nutrient density.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:28 pm

I was taking my lunch on Tuesdays (usually a sandwich and some fruit) but now I'm having fun analysing the fast food industry

Personally the Kj's aren't that important to me, I'm using that as a measure as its the only easily available info, more so what you can realistically figure out if you walk in cold

The fast food industry gets a lot of critism for its contribution to the obesity crisis but I'm seeing that you can eat from many of these providers without exceeding what the general public needs to keep to if you are smart about it.

BTW the people I saw in Nandos were the most health conscious looking of all the places I've been to so far, though they didn't have that many customers
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:20 am

What makes healthy fast food a marginal business proposition is the relative spoilage of different foods, and that fast food clientele are on the whole not big vegetable eaters.

Naturally, most fresh vegetables would not last more than a week, then have to be tossed, or made into patties and frozen.

Whereas starch and protein usually have all the longevity advantages of frozen food.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:14 am

mikesbytes wrote:The fast food industry gets a lot of criticism for its contribution to the obesity crisis but I'm seeing that you can eat from many of these providers without exceeding what the general public needs to keep to if you are smart about it.
They generally deserve the criticism because they provide on average poor food for the criteria of health and weight maintenance. Excluding Subway, even their best choices aren't that good. Yes, I'm comparing them to a high standard, because a high standard is needed to keep an ideal body weight while eating ad-lib.
That is because macronutrient ratios, calorie density and food type are important factors in weight management. More about these subjects here. Sure, if you count calories (which is "The Biggest Loser", or bodybuilders' approach to weight management) you can eat anything and lose weight. But the general population (and I) don't eat like that.

I'll keep harping on about food type in these threads, because it matters. But I also understand some people will never get it. Maybe because food addiction clouds their minds.
mikesbytes wrote:BTW the people I saw in Nandos were the most health conscious looking of all the places I've been to so far, though they didn't have that many customers
If Nandos paints themselves as a healthier option, they may attract people with different lifestyles than those who go to KFC and McDonalds. Subway appears to paint themselves as healthier, but analysis of most of their products shows they aren't much better than the rest. Nandos specializes in chicken which is the most obesegenic meat commonly available according to below. AKAIK the US are the biggest eaters of chicken. Which also says something about chicken's link to obesity.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/chicke ... d-obesity/
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:25 am

Add to that the handling costs its clear which foods derive the most profit

None the less I have exhibited that you can make better choices at fast food locations based on the information available, which is Kj, content description and photo's

One thing I forgot to do at Nandos was ask if the vegetarian option I had was vegan, its a useful piece of info if you are out with a vegan. Unlike Nobody's statistic which says there is hardly any vegan's, I live in an area where the vegan's are concentrated and as a result most of the coffee shops have some vegan options plus there are vegan restaurants so no problem going out regardless of the dietary choices of your friends
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:45 am

mikesbytes wrote:...plus there are vegan restaurants so no problem going out regardless of the dietary choices of your friends
Keeping in mind that vegan isn't necessarily healthy either. Sydney's The Green Lion appears to be a good example of that. Although usually better than animal product offerings, I wouldn't expect to maintain an excellent level of health if eating there regularly.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:35 am

Nobody wrote:Nandos specializes in chicken which is the most obesegenic meat commonly available according to below. AKAIK the US are the biggest eaters of chicken. Which also says something about chicken's link to obesity.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/chicke ... d-obesity/
why chicken is so widely consumed:
- health authorities have pushed for 40 years that red meats are less healthy. chicken and fish benefit from this.
- associated with previous point, many feel white meat is less heavy, therefore lower in Calories (false).
- chickens don't score as high on the human empathy scale - they are not mammals with expressive eyes, faces, and sounds of distress, therefore many people are not as triggered by their cruel treatment.
- poultry is easier and cheaper to bulk farm. less space is required per tonne of meat. less labor and time is required to grow a full sized chicken. chicken is far cheaper than fish to farm. I've known poultry farmers in Australia, and their margins are very thin. there has been enormous pressure on them to scale up due to shrinking margins, which means they have to sell to large manufacturers/wholesales to dispose of their volumes. There's only so many of these in Oz and they dictate the price they want to pay. For a farmer to make a living by stepping outside that model, people would have to pay a premium most are not inclined to.

comparatively,
chicken breasts $8-15/kg
beef and lamb select cuts $20-45/kg
pork $15-30/kg



The fast food business is adversely effected by high property prices which lead to higher leases, minimum wage and other employee benefits.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s in Brisbane. My parents' generation did not have fast food, and they had absolutely no respect for it whatsoever. Accordingly, we didn't eat fast food. In those days, it was a sign of superior character and values to always have home cooked meals, and lunches were prepared at home so people could save to buy a house. Loving mothers trying to do the right thing prepared home cooked meals. I don't think many Westerners understand how lifestyles and values have been compromised in the last 40-50 years.

The normalization of and habituation to eating fast food regularly needs to be reversed, for household economics as well as health reasons. But that will require people considering food primarily as optimal fuel rather than pleasure, reward, or treat.

It will take clear personal values, life goals, and meaning of life stuff.
But it will also take cultural change so that healthy foods are readily available at an affordable price, and people are educated and aware of what a healthy diet is. If you travel in Italy, Germany and France, fast food is no where near as common as in the US and Australia..... a good thing that we need to emulate.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:58 pm

I haven't watched the Biggest looser for a while but at the time it seemed to be a low calorie diet combined with exercise to increase the deflect a little, it was all about weight loss and people drama around it.

Different bodybuilders would have different approaches but its about damaging the muscles thru strength related exercise and matching the nutrition to optomise muscle growth during the repair process

neither of the above is about optimising heath, both are about meeting an objective

I was referring to the vegan restaurant from the viewpoint of being to go out with someone who requires vegan food, rather than whether the restaurant was the healthiest choice. I can roll that up with the fast food outlets in the statement 'occasional choice' while you 'everyday choice' is the much healthier choice

Nobody, you certainly see chicken as the worse choice, for those who choose to eat meat, which meat should be their main choice?
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:24 am

CKinnard wrote:kiThe normalization of and habituation to eating fast food regularly needs to be reversed, for household economics as well as health reasons. But that will require people considering food primarily as optimal fuel rather than pleasure, reward, or treat.

It will take clear personal values, life goals, and meaning of life stuff.
But it will also take cultural change so that healthy foods are readily available at an affordable price, and people are educated and aware of what a healthy diet is. If you travel in Italy, Germany and France, fast food is no where near as common as in the US and Australia..... a good thing that we need to emulate.
It's obviously going to take government action for any real change in the near future. Since recent AU governments seem to be more worried about the economy/business than people and their well-being, I'm not expecting change anytime soon. I was looking at the state by state trends of US obesity and noted that some states have managed to curtail their rising obesity rate to some degree, while others are still accelerating. Louisiana was the worst. Not surprising since New Orleans is known for its love of food.

The map in link below is interactive.
http://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
mikesbytes wrote:I haven't watched the Biggest looser for a while but at the time it seemed to be a low calorie diet combined with exercise to increase the deflect a little, it was all about weight loss and people drama around it.
The Biggest Loser approach is reductionist, with a mainstream dietitian approach. To them all calories are equal and you must get all the food groups. From what I've seen of it, it tends toward low-carb. Meat is still the main ingredient. For them, the way to lose weight is reduce carbs, reduce fat and exercise more. A calorie restricting exercise, as with many non-ideal diets. If you can't eat to satiation and get to, or maintain ideal weight, there is something wrong with the food (usually) and/or you (psychologically/physically).
mikesbytes wrote:Different bodybuilders would have different approaches but its about damaging the muscles thru strength related exercise and matching the nutrition to optomise muscle growth during the repair process
I was referring to their "cutting" cycle. The gain cycle assumes fat gain because they deliberately over-eat.
mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, you certainly see chicken as the worse choice, for those who choose to eat meat, which meat should be their main choice?
That's like asking which type of alcohol or cigarettes are the best.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/meat-a ... cea-study/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20592131

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:40 am

The general population wasn't obese in the 1950's. What did people eat in the 1950's?
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:18 am

mikesbytes wrote:The general population wasn't obese in the 1950's. What did people eat in the 1950's?
It is an interesting way to approach the issue for potential solutions Mike.

In that era, food costs took up a higher % of the cost of living and was overwhelmingly unprocessed.

Today, food % of cost of living is lower but housing and transport is higher. i.e. car ownership was less, people lived within walking or cycling distance of work, cities were not as densely population, sprawled and disconnected from green space, unprocessed foods were more broadly available, and if not people had the time to grow their own (this was facilitated by families being larger and children doing more chores).

Cooking was a core skill taught in public and private skills to women in home economics.
The Australian diet was more homogenous, and not complicated by as many influence from other cultures (for better or worse!).
In this respect there was more cultural reinforcement of what constitutes a healthy balanced diet. There wasn't as much confusion as today.
I am generally a free market guy, but I do accept govt has a key role for setting and perpetuating cultural norms and base skills such as cooking (via schools). Nevertheless, this is a more convoluted task today due to the 'multicultural' nature of Australia. Can you imagine the drama some minorities will stir up when home ec classes are not inclusive of Halal, Kosher, Hindu, Buddhist traditions!

BTW, I am not saying people ate optimally back then. Generally they ate too much animal produce and not enough vege, though they ate more vege than now.

In short, diet has changed dramatically due to societal and cultural change - time pressures imposed by commuting, higher mortgages requiring two incomes to service, longer hours away from home, people suffering from higher levels of fatigue and not having the motivation to prepare home meals from scratch. The ever growing volume of science often conflicting also confounds clear dietary choice, as does the growing level of morbidity (autoimmune and endocrine disease)

Nevertheless, individuals with clear and firm life values and goals are not powerless to 'go with the flow'.
The thing we have today that our forebears didn't is CHOICE! It is up to every individual and parent to choose consciously, and not be swept along by "popular culture", whatever that is! There is a role for inspired government to facilitate the mainstreaming of good dietary information. But the will and creativity and foresight has been found wanting, imho.

So, as always, those with a clear and committed life mission are more likely to guide others....upwards or downwards!
Many these days don't seem to respect their individual agency to choose what they want from the market of ideas and services, and not just for diet.
They too easily accept the govt, this or that health or educational authority, or political ideology or religion knows best!
None of us would not benefit from more seriously contemplating life meaning, and living life resonant with that meaning.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:15 am

Also certain foods were treats back in the 50's and they are now consumed on a daily basis. Ie coke, lollies and icecreams.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:40 am

mikesbytes wrote:The general population wasn't obese in the 1950's. What did people eat in the 1950's?
Smoking was big in the '50s.
From what I understand they ate less meat then too, since meat consumption has increased over the decades.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/a ... kjhp4.html
As Baalz said, less snacking back in the '50s.
As CK said, more activity. Less car travel time, if at all. The only screen was a TV and not everyone had one.
Also current obesity could be aided by chemical and environmental pollution exposure in many ways, like plastics (BPA etc), automotive exhaust fumes, etc, etc.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:25 pm

The 50's dinner was portion control, a small piece of meat, a portion of carbs which was often potato and 2 other simple vegetables. Tea was probably the most common drink. Possibly a dessert which would varied a little more in what it was
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:42 pm

Nobody wrote: From what I understand they ate less meat then too, since meat consumption has increased over the decades.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/a ... kjhp4.html
Yeah I've seen that Fairfax article and its charts before (OECD data), but it doesn't fit with longer term data from local meat producers. i.e.

Image

I would add that pre 1970, Australians were shorter and slimmer, so even if they were having the same kg/year of animal flesh as more recently, it would be a higher dose per kg bodyweight.


Some might remember the ditty in this


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:13 pm

That's an interesting graph CK, seems that overall meat consumption hasn't changed a lot, more so which ones people consume. It disputes one of the things I thought about the 1950's diet, I had assumed that they ate less meat in the 50's and that's not the case.

Looking at the trends I'm not surprised that lamb has plummeted, its expensive and at the same time chicken has become much cheaper. In part the increase in pork would be due to the change in ethnic mix. Also had a passing thought about how fish and seafood would look on that same graph, I'm guessing it wouldn't make a lot of difference.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:34 pm

CKinnard wrote:Some might remember the ditty in this

https://youtu.be/SD231-bZHPA
"Feed the man meat." That cultural norm was probably always there as I was growing up. So from that we get if you don't eat meat, you mustn't be a real man. But then some draw that conclusion about male cyclists as well.
mikesbytes wrote:It disputes one of the things I thought about the 1950's diet, I had assumed that they ate less meat in the 50's and that's not the case.
Lets assume that's the case. But compare at the amount of chicken people now eat to what they used to eat. Chicken being the biggest obesegen. If you were to overlay an obesity line on that graph, you might be able to correlate the rise in chicken with the rise in obesity. A big stretch since there are a heap of other known factors. But I'm just placing the thought out there.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:00 pm

To reiterate, people were shorter and leaner on average pre 70s-80s.
They were also more physically active (less sedentary jobs, no computers, more manual work in manufacturing and due to less automation).

So it could be reasonably inferred they had a higher intake of animal flesh per kg bodyweight, but the flesh % of total Calories was likely higher.

Anyway, the take home is Australians average 2kg of animal flesh a week, excluding fish.

Blue Zone guidelines vary from
- no flesh to maybe 500 g a year (seventh day adventist vegan category)
- 500 g flesh a month on average across all groups.
- up go 200g a week of non fish flesh with 4-5 x 100g serves of fish.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:32 pm

I'm finding this confusing. When I asked which meat was the healthier meat I was told that all meat is equally bad, as bad as booze and smokes. Then I'm presented with a graph that shows that meat consumption is similar to the 50's, only the type of meat has changed. Then I'm told that the problem is Chicken consumption, as the rise in chicken consumption matches the rise in consumption problems. So its contradicting itself, people in the 50's shouldn't of been so slim, unless there's a difference between beef, lamb, chicken and pork. I do take the point that there was more exercise in the 50's and therefor the general public needs less, that's called portion control
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:33 pm

Grass fed animals are the best source but of course are the most expensive.
Take for example an organic chicken. $50 thankyou and it's already frozen
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:34 pm

If you talk to a conventional dietitian, they'll advise in order of least adverse health risk:
fish, oily fish, chicken, lamb, pork, beef.
Though you want leaner organic cuts and humanely killed to minimize stress hormones.
You have to consider the criteria used though. THey are usually talking about types of fat and well established health risks (i.e. higher levels of beef is more associated with colon cancer).
Health risk is dose dependent, as supported by the Blue Zone data.
There's little to zero consideration given to reductionist adverse health findings such as AGEs, HCAs, Carnitine, TMAO, Neu5gc, arachidonic acid, putrescine, purine load, leucine and mTORC1, bacteria, endotoxins, antibiotics, hormones, PCBs, PBDEs, PCNs, mercury, pesticides, nitrites, inflammatory response, cancer risk, atherosclerosis, AAA, etc.

Here's a paleo perspective
https://paleoleap.com/which-meat-to-choose/

Here's a more literature inclusive perspective
http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resou ... ancer-risk

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