Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

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Constantheadwind
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Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:23 pm

I saw an episode of Catalyst on the tele a few months ago. It was about low carbohydrate, high fat dieting(LCHF). I found the idea to be quite an eye opener as it seemed completely opposite to what I'd been led to believe previously. Low in fat & contains no cholesterol are advertising slogans used to imply that those products are healthy. Surely eating a high percentage of ones daily intake of saturated fats would have negative consequences on ones health like clogged arteries & weight gain.
Eating lots of fat to lose weight didn't seem right & the tv episode had the hallmark of a beat up story to increase ratings. So with nothing else too urgent to do, I watched the entire story. At one point they mentioned that members of the Australian cricket team like Shane Watson were on the LCHF diet. This for me was the turning point, surely if some of our national sportsmen under the guidance of a team doctor had given the diet & try & were advocating it, then I reasoned, it can't all be a nonsense. I then started surfing the web for similar information & found there was a great deal of credible information available. Search:- Phinney, Volek, Attia & Noakes & you will find a wealth of info by these persons.
From what I understand, if you are insulin insensitive and that is a lot of us, i.e. if you find it easy to put on weight by eating lots of processed carbs like bread, pasta, soft drinks, hamburgers etc. then you may benefit by following a LCHF diet regime.
Anyway I tried an experiment on the missus, yes I know I'm a chicken. Anyway, I got her to limit grains & cereals, eat more eggs, cheese, olives, avocado & stop late night snacking on Weetbix. She previously had blood work done & needed to do some more. After receiving the new round of results I was pleased to find that her lipid panel was improved. HDL cholesterol increased, triglycerides lowered, LDL cholesterol increased as was expected due to diet but current thinking is it will probably be an increase in the large buoyant LDL, the non harmful type. Fasting glucose also lowered.
All good so far with my sample of one. To be increased to a sample of 2 in a few months time when I to do my medical.
I did a search on bna forums & found little reference to the LCHF diet. Many posts are evident regarding vegetarian dieting, but little on the LCHF diet. I am not intending to inflame others by stating that this diet is better than yours because one diet doesn't suit all. Rather I found the idea of eating lots of saturated fats for improved health very thought provoking. From a cycling nutritional perspective it appears that endurance riding may benefit greatest from LCHF adaption.
Interested in hearing what others think of the emerging public thought, any personal experiences etc.

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casual_cyclist
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:34 pm

There is some solid research backing up LCHF. I can't do high fat, but I do have problems when I let me fat drop too low. When I need to increase fat, my go to is pure coconut milk. I really like coconut milk and sweet potato.

There was a vegan low carb study that I found very interesting. It was a very small study though. The study was to compare a low carb vegan diet with a high-carbohydrate lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. The results were −6.9 kg on low-carbohydrate and −5.8 kg on high-carbohydrate over 6 months. The bad thing about the study was that 50% of the low carb participants dropped out by the end of the study :( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In another review of low carb vs balanced diets found that over the shorter term, there is an advantage in low carb but up to two years, the advantage evens out and there is no advantage to low carb. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4090010/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The best lifestyle intervention is the one you will stick to in the long term. In any lifestyle intervention though, I would rate a high vegetable intake as very important. That doesn't mean you need to go all vegan, just that veggies make a good foundation for a healthy diet.

Some more reading from Harvard Health: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... ate-diets/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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twizzle
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby twizzle » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:59 pm

I dropped 14kg, went from being a carb dependant rider to having my best-ever A.G. Fondo last year. Instead of bonking before the finish, I sprinted out of the saddle over the line and took ten minutes off my previous best-ever time. I just wished I'd ridden it harder instead of pacing myself. First year I rode it, I used seven gels, last year only two... and after the second gel I had a lack of energy for about thirty minutes.

Downsides - a peaky HR that goes back to normal when I eat carbs. A total lack of anaerobic power. It's a diet suited to endurance riders.

See ya.
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mikedufty
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby mikedufty » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:36 pm

I lost about 20kg, can't say it's made an appreciable difference to performance, I was not particularly fast before and still am not, but its nice not to have the extra weight to carry. I like to think I can now go for days without eating with no chance of bonking because I am fat adapted, but haven't really done anything strenuous enough to show up any issues. Probably 3hrs MTB or 6 hrs walking would be the most I've done since going LCHF in 2009.

The science behind it seem very convincing to me, but mainly because I've tried it and it works. Seems likely to be healthier than a carbohydrate based diet.

NuSi set up by Gary Taubes and Peter Attia are making some progress in getting some really good scientific studies to prove/disprove it. I really think it will end up being the mainstream advice, there is just a lot of inertia to overcome with dodgy govt diet guidelines we've had since the 70s.

Tim Noakes' says from his studies with athletes that there is a lot of individual variation in how people respond to different diets. There are certainly plenty of young athletes who do really well on carb loading, but for people like me LCHF is what works.

march83
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby march83 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:22 pm

mikedufty wrote:there is a lot of individual variation in how people respond to different diets
this is a very important take away. self-experimentation within safe limits is fun and interesting.

Personally and speaking in very general terms, I'm faster on a bike when i'm eating carbs. I'm thinner, I have more energy and I have fewer colds/sinus/allergies when my carbs are moderately restricted. On a very low carb diet I get super tired and I'm constantly cold and tired.

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skull
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby skull » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:29 pm

twizzle wrote: See ya.
Whoa, who's this guy?

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mikedufty
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby mikedufty » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:51 pm

An important factor is that it does take a couple of weeks or more to adapt to no carbs. This is pretty well understood and documented in Phinney's cyclist study. It can put a lot of people off though especially if they give up before getting through the adaptation.

I haven't had any issues with tiredness after the first couple of weeks, I did bonk on a ride home from work in the first week though. I don't have problems with being cold except swimming, which I put down to a bit less insulation, I don't float as well either. I think I can still tolerate cold water better than most people though.
The one adverse affect I think I do have is I seem a bit more prone to cramps than before, random resting/stretching induced ones, not exercise related. They do recommend upping your salt intake.

Constantheadwind
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:15 pm

Personally I've dropped about 9kg since commencing my diet trial at the beginning of the year. Not really trying to eat less. Often goring heavily on raw macadamia nuts when peckish (an expensive habit) but I found the "only eat a small quantity of nuts because they are full of calories" to be misleading in my case. Yes oils may have 9 kcal per gram versus 4 kcal per gram for simple refined carbs, however chewing & digesting those nuts for me doesn't translate to the same degree of weight gain as it would if eating say refined sugar.
Basically Iv'e refrained from eating bread, rice & potatoes etc. I still consume all the veg I can steam & eat like broccoli & brussel sprouts. I think I would need a wheelbarrow load to overdo calories on that stuff. Love the bullet coffee (cofee with butter & coconut oil). I eat lots more eggs, cheese & olives.
Yep I agree that it's a lifestyle change. Only today I had an old friend over who I haven't seen in years & the missus brings out the cake & munchies. It's a difficult act to follow & remain sociable. Oh well a few days setback. Hopefully I won't do that too often. The guilt has set in, I can feel an exercise session coming on.
I've noted that my anaerobic power isn't there on low carb. But then again a year or so ago, I was supplementing with creatine, a bad move in hindsight, as I ended up tearing calf muscles, a thrombosis scare at the time, but a venous doppler ultrasound finally cleared that concern. Interestingly sport nutrition is in a state of flux, one interview I saw recently indicated that in years gone by TDF riders may typically have consumed a kg of carb per day. Today it's typically perhaps 300gram. What will it be in 5 years time?

Aussiebullet
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Aussiebullet » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:55 am

Constantheadwind wrote: I still consume all the veg I can steam & eat like broccoli & brussel sprouts. I think I would need a wheelbarrow load to overdo calories on that stuff. Love the bullet coffee (cofee with butter & coconut oil).

Wow I thought I was the only one to do this, then I googled "bullet coffee" and found it to be something that has been around for quite a while. What brand coffee do you make it with? I find the type of coffee you use makes all the difference.
Last edited by Aussiebullet on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Constantheadwind
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:01 am

Still experimenting, I didn't like Nescafé blend 43 espresso or gold intense barista style. I've found Nescafé Azera Intense quite agreeable. Also using unsalted butter!

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Aussiebullet » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:09 am

Have not tried that, shopping today so I will take a look at at it.

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:30 am

Constantheadwind wrote:HDL cholesterol increased, triglycerides lowered, LDL cholesterol increased as was expected due to diet but current thinking is it will probably be an increase in the large buoyant LDL, the non harmful type.
These videos are probably worth a look. If you think Greger is cherry picking then have a look at the sources cited in each video which are linked to the right of the video image.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-ch ... ze-matter/
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/low-car ... lood-flow/

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Nobody » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:13 am

mikedufty wrote:NuSi set up by Gary Taubes and Peter Attia are making some progress in getting some really good scientific studies to prove/disprove it.

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casual_cyclist
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:21 pm

Nobody wrote:
Constantheadwind wrote:HDL cholesterol increased, triglycerides lowered, LDL cholesterol increased as was expected due to diet but current thinking is it will probably be an increase in the large buoyant LDL, the non harmful type.
These videos are probably worth a look. If you think Greger is cherry picking then have a look at the sources cited in each video which are linked to the right of the video image.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-ch ... ze-matter/
I don't really get that, because he links to studies but then the studies don't necessarily back up what he is claiming. For example, he links to this review that found:
Further, existing epidemiological data have clearly demonstrated that dietary cholesterol is not correlated with increased risk for CHD. Although numerous clinical studies have shown that dietary cholesterol challenges may increase plasma LDL cholesterol in certain individuals, who are more sensitive to dietary cholesterol (about one-quarter of the population), HDL cholesterol also rises resulting in the maintenance of the LDL/HDL cholesterol ratio, a key marker of CHD risk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's not backing up his argument at all. I find this a lot with these videos.
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casual_cyclist
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:37 pm

In this video, he claims "So this is the best science we have, demonstrating the threat of low carb diets, not just measuring risk factors, but actual blood flow in people’s hearts on different diets."

I note that he did not reference an very important study in this area, which is an examination of the "Eco-Atkins" low carb vegan diet, which showed reductions in total cholesterol, LDL-C and HDL-C. The video is dated 2014 and the study I reference is dated 2009, so it was available long before the video. That is why I think he is guilty of cherry picking. He only references studies that kind of back up his claims and ignores studies that completely contradict his claims, like this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I take those videos with a grain of salt. They are interesting and the links are useful but the further I dig into the references provided, the less compelling they are.
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:53 pm

You can find a more honest appraisal of some of the studies into low-carb here:
http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studie ... fat-diets/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This review looks at 23 Studies on Low-Carb and Low-Fat Diets and presents the findings in an unbiased way.
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Constantheadwind
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:00 pm

I think one should welcome all points of view. Hopefully the views of others is positive. Nothing constructive is likely to come from discredit of others. Plantpositive.com has its own unique agenda. I do prefer listening to a salesman that explains the history of his company, the science, evidence & future of his product, rather than shoot down his opposition, that never wins my vote. Anyway I take all on board, try a little self experimentation, and make informed decisions that way.

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:18 pm

Constantheadwind wrote:I think one should welcome all points of view. Hopefully the views of others is positive. Nothing constructive is likely to come from discredit of others. Plantpositive.com has its own unique agenda. I do prefer listening to a salesman that explains the history of his company, the science, evidence & future of his product, rather than shoot down his opposition, that never wins my vote. Anyway I take all on board, try a little self experimentation, and make informed decisions that way.
Understood. The particular issue I have with the Nutritionfacts videos is that they are presented in a way that makes them seem scientifically accurate but there is an undisclosed agenda behind them. People viewing for the first time might be fooled into thinking they are unbiased where they are not. As long as they are veiwed with healthy scepticism, they are actually fairly useful. I think this summation is fairly accurate:
It turns out that Dr. Greger has swallowed the vegan philosophy hook, line and sinker; not that there’s anything wrong with that. He promotes veganism with religious fervour and has forged a career speaking on health issues
http://blogs.mcgill.ca/oss/2013/10/15/d ... ke-of-him/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As long as people know that, nutritionfacts is actually a useful site for collecting useful, interesting and relevant studies. Just be aware they are not always accurately represented. The great thing is that the studies are all linked, so you can click through and read what they actually say. I have found that to be very useful.
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby kenwstr » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:33 pm

Having developed considerable health issues around starch like so many others my age, I am now excluding the majority of this from my diet by necessity. The only way I can now obtain sufficient energy for cycling is from fats. I feel great, alert and control weight easily.

Seems to me high carb diets cause obesity, heart disease, clots, diabetes, digestive issues and on it goes......
So far, low carb high fat is proving far preferable. I didn't make this change based on any diet theory, trend or fad, it is simply what I have found by trial and error to actually work.


Ken

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:55 pm

On a LCHF diet, most people increase dramatically the amount of vegetables they eat. This alone could make them feel healthier, improve their blood panels, reduce hunger pangs, and reduce total Calorie intake. Prof Tim Noakes admits the LCHF diet he and others promote today includes lots of vegetables.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4126228.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (AT) 14min30sec

No dietitian or scientist ever told people to stop eating fat, and replace it with soft drink, lollies, pizza, crisps, and corn chips.
Carbs are not the problem.

Refined simple processed sugars, unbalanced stressful lifestyles, and consuming more energy than one burns, are the problem....and it's rubbish that most are eating HCLF these days.

LCHF means "low carb", not no carb. Often, all that is happening is people are reducing their Calorie intake to match their energy expenditure.

If people were eating huge quantities of carbs (starch) before, they were more than likely not eating enough vegetables. And when they go onto LCHF, they up their vege intake.

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casual_cyclist
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:07 pm

CKinnard wrote:Refined simple processed sugars, unbalanced stressful lifestyles, and consuming more energy than one burns, are the problem....and it's rubbish that most are eating HCLF these days.
But that is in combination with a lack of veggies. Not lots of veggies and on top of that eating lots of refined carbs (sugar, flour, white pasta etc).

I know, because I have done it. Lots of refined sugars and refined grains, lots of dairy, no whole grains, few veggies, no fruit. It made me fat, fat, fat and very sick. A low veg vegetarian! :shock: :oops: :(

My advice is whatever eating pattern you choose to follow, smash the veggies. They are very good for you and should be the foundation for any healthy eating plan.
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Constantheadwind
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:36 am

I think what is considered to be low carb" is specific to the individual. In order for "fat burning adaption" to take place, ketones in sufficient quantity are needed to be produced and this occurs when glucose is in short supply for sufficient duration. Now someone may need to drop their carb intake to 50 grams per day for that to take place. Yet another individual may consume much higher quantity of carbs & still produce ketones. How much exercise does each do. Lots of variables to consider. Now how much carb is 50 grams? Not much for me at least, a tall glass of milk, milk cofee, banana & an apple or orange. At dinner time some corn, a carrot & a potato. That 50 grams evaporated long before I ate dinner. Of course if one is serious or curious, one can always test for ketones in the breath, urine or blood in order to establish what their low carb limit is.

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:57 am

casual_cyclist wrote:My advice is whatever eating pattern you choose to follow, smash the veggies. They are very good for you and should be the foundation for any healthy eating plan.
Which is pretty much the only dietary advice I give less informed and motivated clients these days.
Everything else is inferior at satiating and keeping blood glucose stable, for the relative energy density.
Therefore, veges are the best weight loss food.

Constantheadwind
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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby Constantheadwind » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:56 am

Not this little black duck. I guess we're all different. From the satiating point at least, fat holds off my hunger pangs far far longer than any veg. Glucose control is a different story of course. A butter coffee can keep away my hunger for 1/2 a day. A bunch of celery would never do that for me. I'd need to constantly graze & I'd probably be belching & backfiring like a bloke at work does, he animal protein & fat restricts. He lost a lot of weight but his insides aren't at peace.

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Re: Low Carohydrate High Fat diet, your thoughts

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:30 pm

Constantheadwind wrote:Not this little black duck. I guess we're all different. From the satiating point at least, fat holds off my hunger pangs far far longer than any veg. Glucose control is a different story of course. A butter coffee can keep away my hunger for 1/2 a day. A bunch of celery would never do that for me. I'd need to constantly graze & I'd probably be belching & backfiring like a bloke at work does, he animal protein & fat restricts. He lost a lot of weight but his insides aren't at peace.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about vegetable consumption. I eat lots of veggies without restricting fat, belching or farting my way around the office ;-)

For example, for breakfast I might eat a savoury sweet potato "pudding" made from boiled sweet potato and coconut milk. For dinner last night I ate pasta with heaps of extra veg in a tomato based pasta sauce. The extra veg included green beans, peas and broccoli. I eat it because I like it. It was delicious!

My question to you if you don't eat veggies is, where do you get your nutrition? There are not many essential vitamins and minerals in a butter coffee.
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