Sugar its like a poison

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mikesbytes
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:46 pm

Except that our tax dollars are paying for their medical bills. I haven't come upon any data on the cost of poor nutritional choices but I've heard it quoted that the medical bill for smoking is $25B a year
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nobody » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:52 pm

Nikolai wrote:As I said above, the approach itself (taxing) is wrong on so many levels it's hard to figure out where to begin...

Well, I guess the main objection should be mentioned at least, and it's a fatal one: it shouldn't be none of your, or mine, nor anybody else's, business to worry about what others are eating, drinking or even injecting.
This is all fine and well until someone has to pay for the medical expenses, which is often the government in AU. There is also potentially loss of taxes from an unproductive worker. So it becomes the government's business to legislate against actions that would cost them money. However, as we know, they usually go after the suppliers of the damaging goods as it's often more effective than trying to change people's actions in this regard. As can be seen by the recent programs, this is what the suppliers are worried about. There have been attempts already in the US to bring in soda taxes or size restrictions by legislation.

Edit: Beaten to it by Mike.
Last edited by Nobody on Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby ball bearing » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:54 pm

Nikolai wrote: I mean, if anyone thinks that you can prohibit something, or make it expensive, and people will roll over and stop consuming whatever you're trying to regulate, I don't know, don't want to be rude, but you need to pause and think...
The only prohibition should be the prohibition of the actual sugar drug pushers. The sugar lobby is very powerful and they are able to buy and sell pollies and bureaucracies such as the FDA.

"Dealing Coke to customers called "heavy users." Selling to teens in an attempt to hook them for life. Scientifically tweaking ratios of salt, sugar and fat to optimize consumer bliss.

In his new book, Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Michael Moss goes inside the world of processed and packaged foods...."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/201 ... -sugar-fat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nikolai » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:17 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Except that our tax dollars are paying for their medical bills.
The system (taxation) is supposedly voluntary. So if you don't like how your money is spent, don't give it to those who spend it.

If, on the other hand, the money is taken from you at a gun point, shut up then - nobody wants your opinion on how this money is going to be spent.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:41 am

I'm not suggesting that we use taxation to solve the problem, as its simply too difficult to build a model that all of the experts would agree on.

At the same time I'd like to see a healthier society

Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nikolai » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:16 am

mikesbytes wrote:Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
So you're trying to find someone to punish for someone else's choices. Let's punish everyone with taxes because this group over there eat too many Mars bars. Oh wait, that's kind of stupid. OK, let's punish the advertisers. It's them, right? It's their fault. Let's punish the manufacturers, they make chocolate and cakes. Because hey, people who eat too many donuts, they're not responsible, they don't know what they're doing. Let's start firing in all directions and see how much money we can collect from everyone involved. Oh and by the way, if I'm in charge of the gun, and you pay me a little "contribution", I'll leave you alone and make someone else pick up your tab. Meantime, the population is getting sicker and sicker. Problem solved.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby zill » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:58 am

Nikolai wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
So you're trying to find someone to punish for someone else's choices. Let's punish everyone with taxes because this group over there eat too many Mars bars. Oh wait, that's kind of stupid. OK, let's punish the advertisers. It's them, right? It's their fault. Let's punish the manufacturers, they make chocolate and cakes. Because hey, people who eat too many donuts, they're not responsible, they don't know what they're doing. Let's start firing in all directions and see how much money we can collect from everyone involved. Oh and by the way, if I'm in charge of the gun, and you pay me a little "contribution", I'll leave you alone and make someone else pick up your tab. Meantime, the population is getting sicker and sicker. Problem solved.

An healthy (in all aspects of the word) society will most definitely need a good government with good people and do things like charge taxes on certain things. Society will rot if left to the free market and will also rot if left to a bad government.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby warthog1 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:34 pm

zill wrote:

An healthy (in all aspects of the word) society will most definitely need a good government with good people and do things like charge taxes on certain things. Society will rot if left to the free market and will also rot if left to a bad government.


Zill is that really you????? :o wt?


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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby zill » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:35 pm

warthog1 wrote:
zill wrote:

An healthy (in all aspects of the word) society will most definitely need a good government with good people and do things like charge taxes on certain things. Society will rot if left to the free market and will also rot if left to a bad government.


Zill is that really you????? :o wt?


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Yes, why?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby bychosis » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:01 pm

Sugar not poison... is drug.

Makes you feel good, addictive but not so good for you.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby zill » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:01 pm

My strategy now is not to eliminate sugar but have enough to be satisfied so as not to binge on that stuff.

So about 80g of sugar per day for me on average. That way, I am satisfied yet calories are kept in check.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Nikolai » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:35 pm

zill wrote:An healthy (in all aspects of the word) society will most definitely need a good government with good people and do things like charge taxes on certain things.
And you know this how? Perhaps you can point me to a "healthy" society with a "good" government in the history of humanity so that we all can have a look and go, right, this is what we need to do to solve problems because these "healthy" guys with "good" government fixed their problems by raising taxes and coercion.
zill wrote:Society will rot if left to the free market and will also rot if left to a bad government.
I see, let's blame the free market now. Where is it, by the way, that free market? When was the last time you saw it?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby zill » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:58 pm

Nikolai wrote:
And you know this how? Perhaps you can point me to a "healthy" society with a "good" government in the history of humanity so that we all can have a look and go, right, this is what we need to do to solve problems because these "healthy" guys with "good" government fixed their problems by raising taxes and coercion.
What I say are all very idealistic. It never will exist in reality. On a practical level, although I haven't studied these things in depth admire the Northern and some Western European countries. Australia is pretty great as well compared to many other countries but that is mainly because we are so resource rich and still relatively young as a country. In another 100 years and with a much larger population, doubt things will look so rosy. For example inequality has risen a lot in the last decade and I can only see it rising further.

Nikolai wrote: I see, let's blame the free market now. Where is it, by the way, that free market? When was the last time you saw it?
Again ideologies. The closest example to a free market I know is America, not doing so well. As for bad government, that is more obvious, e.g. North Korea, Nazi Germany, many African countries, many Middle Eastern countries, many Asian countries.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:18 pm

Nikolai wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
So you're trying to find someone to punish for someone else's choices. Let's punish everyone with taxes because this group over there eat too many Mars bars. Oh wait, that's kind of stupid. OK, let's punish the advertisers. It's them, right? It's their fault. Let's punish the manufacturers, they make chocolate and cakes. Because hey, people who eat too many donuts, they're not responsible, they don't know what they're doing. Let's start firing in all directions and see how much money we can collect from everyone involved. Oh and by the way, if I'm in charge of the gun, and you pay me a little "contribution", I'll leave you alone and make someone else pick up your tab. Meantime, the population is getting sicker and sicker. Problem solved.
The same argument can be used for any taxation that is designed to discourage usage, ciggies are an obvious example. The suggestion above is designed to discourage advertising less healthy products, I'm not suggesting an increase in taxation of the item being purchased.
'
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby fat and old » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:25 pm

My wife watched that show. The next morning, she saw the Clif bars I'd bought the day before (first ones I'd ever tried btw), read the contents and chucked them in the bin. Emptied the sugar bowl....now my caro (a coffee substitute made of reprocessed dirt and straw) is sugarless. Which has weaned me off that stuff. My hot chocolate went in the bin too. She has declared jihad....and I'm the casualty.

She has good intentions, so I have no leg to stand on if I choose to be stupid and complain. :(

Thank god I can buy a hoc choccie when I go out and ride.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:30 pm

fat and old wrote:Thank god I can buy a hoc choccie when I go out and ride.
Until your GLW pops in for a look see :wink:
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:37 pm

fat and old wrote:My wife watched that show. The next morning, she saw the Clif bars I'd bought the day before (first ones I'd ever tried btw), read the contents and chucked them in the bin. Emptied the sugar bowl....now my caro (a coffee substitute made of reprocessed dirt and straw) is sugarless. Which has weaned me off that stuff. My hot chocolate went in the bin too. She has declared jihad....and I'm the casualty.

She has good intentions, so I have no leg to stand on if I choose to be stupid and complain. :(

Thank god I can buy a hoc choccie when I go out and ride.
Bummer mate, she could of at least let you consume what was in the house and run the sugar out by reduced future purchasing
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Top_Bhoy » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:39 pm

Nikolai wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
So you're trying to find someone to punish for someone else's choices. Let's punish everyone with taxes because this group over there eat too many Mars bars. Oh wait, that's kind of stupid. OK, let's punish the advertisers. It's them, right? It's their fault. Let's punish the manufacturers, they make chocolate and cakes. Because hey, people who eat too many donuts, they're not responsible, they don't know what they're doing. Let's start firing in all directions and see how much money we can collect from everyone involved. Oh and by the way, if I'm in charge of the gun, and you pay me a little "contribution", I'll leave you alone and make someone else pick up your tab. Meantime, the population is getting sicker and sicker. Problem solved.
People are always punished in some way for other peoples choices. Low income single people are taxed which goes towards paying for childcare of higher income families; schools are paid for by childless households, savers are punished by the need for the RBA to hold mortgage rates low for those who chose to take on debt...where does it end?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:07 pm

"No man is an island".
I ride, therefore I am. But don't ride into harm's way.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:41 pm

fat and old wrote:My wife watched that show. The next morning, she saw the Clif bars I'd bought the day before (first ones I'd ever tried btw), read the contents and chucked them in the bin. Emptied the sugar bowl....now my caro (a coffee substitute made of reprocessed dirt and straw) is sugarless. Which has weaned me off that stuff. My hot chocolate went in the bin too. She has declared jihad....and I'm the casualty.

She has good intentions, so I have no leg to stand on if I choose to be stupid and complain. :(

Thank god I can buy a hoc choccie when I go out and ride.
How are her knees?
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby AlexHuggs » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:54 pm

Top_Bhoy wrote:
Nikolai wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Back on taxation, we do have one nutritional tax model, that being GST, as its not applied to base products, which certainly has its faults but at least its there. What if the same model was applied to advertising? Not perfect I know, but its a step in the right direction.
So you're trying to find someone to punish for someone else's choices. Let's punish everyone with taxes because this group over there eat too many Mars bars. Oh wait, that's kind of stupid. OK, let's punish the advertisers. It's them, right? It's their fault. Let's punish the manufacturers, they make chocolate and cakes. Because hey, people who eat too many donuts, they're not responsible, they don't know what they're doing. Let's start firing in all directions and see how much money we can collect from everyone involved. Oh and by the way, if I'm in charge of the gun, and you pay me a little "contribution", I'll leave you alone and make someone else pick up your tab. Meantime, the population is getting sicker and sicker. Problem solved.
People are always punished in some way for other peoples choices. Low income single people are taxed which goes towards paying for childcare of higher income families; schools are paid for by childless households, savers are punished by the need for the RBA to hold mortgage rates low for those who chose to take on debt...where does it end?
Seriously? Childless households don't have uneducated street urchins accosting them because they're in school. Debt pays for places to live. Society is better off. The returns are not simple money propositions. Take cyclists - we don't pay vehicle charges but motorists are better off with less congestion. Mind you, a few of them may have missed the education part.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:48 am

twizzle wrote:"No man is an island".
Unfortunately true, almost everything we do has an impact on others

We seem to be getting a bit excited about how to solve societies problems, or whether we should solve them.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby zill » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:59 am

mikesbytes wrote:
twizzle wrote:"No man is an island".
Unfortunately true, almost everything we do has an impact on others

We seem to be getting a bit excited about how to solve societies problems, or whether we should solve them.

There are lots of things people could do to improve society but If there is only one thing people can do to improve living standards on earth, I think it would be for people on earth to have less children, in particular only have children if there is good reason to such as having some desirable genetic trait that will benefit humanity and the earth. Off course this sort of thing is debatable but if you are jobless and or a criminal than definitely think hard about reproducing. I'd even argue that if you are an "average" person doing an "average" job and without any special traits that other people would look up to then think hard about children as well. Don't think most people would agree with me as most seem to love (having and caring their own) children. I for one am not planning to have any children.

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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby Dreams V Reallity » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:35 pm

We had one. No problems.
Two, yeah, that's ok.
Three. Oh no. Can we go back to zero?

Seriously, the world MAY be a better place if families were restricted to one, or two with good reasons.

Double seriously, Would never give up my three lovely offspring.
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Re: Sugar its like a poison

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:53 pm

LOL, us cyclist, we gunna save the planet

One of the benefits of sugar, its that its great to sing about
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