Sore calf muscle healed by Tiger Balm!

[zill]

anti-inflammatory agents retard muscle repair

I was about to say that if tiger balm makes it feel better than that's better than not making it feel better. However, very disappointing to hear that it would inhibit muscle growth. What is the reason behind it? Have people done research on it?

By the way, my very sore calf from yesterday's massage is almost not sore this morning - still a little niggling feeling. I'm sure it will be all good by tomorrow.

[sogood]

That's the arrogance of limited Western health knowledge and scientific knowledge and rigour on Eastern medicine. If one is fully versed in the science and academia of Western medical science, one would have an open mind and not use terms like 'snake oil' here. Snake oil is more appropriately applied to quackery which Eastern medicine is not. But as I said, the true effect in OP's case is subject to debate and further observations. Being an anecdotal report, there's not too much conclusion one can draw from it. It 'worked' but there are also too many confounding factors involved. That's all.

[zill]

Just to add to my previous post, after another rub of Tiger Balm (after that post), even the niggling feeling in the calf is pretty much gone.

It's got to say something when an Eastern medical product is for sale in all major Western (or at least Australian) pharmacies.

[ColinOldnCranky]

That's the arrogance of limited Western health knowledge and scientific knowledge and rigour on Eastern medicine. If one is fully versed in the science and academia of Western medical science, one would have an open mind and not use terms like 'snake oil' here. Snake oil is more appropriately applied to quackery which Eastern medicine is not. But as I said, the true effect in OP's case is subject to debate and further observations. Being an anecdotal report, there's not too much conclusion one can draw from it. It 'worked' but there are also too many confounding factors involved. That's all.

It is not arrogance at all. The scientific method just happens to be a very good method of separating myth from fancy from fact as well as persuing fruitful lines of inquiry. It is NOT arrogant to test other things by the same effective methods. It IS arrogant to give some practices a free pass just because they are not "western".

Whether it is "western" or not is of no significance. "Western", "eastern", "Chinese", "traditional", "ancient" and so forth are terms that are lazily thrown around to justify things without having to go to any rigour. Such as validation by scientific method. If you have an other method that is better then tell us what it is. But it needs to be address confirmation bias, placebo, nocebo, google searches done in bad faith. It also needs to produce reproducible results.

Astrology was a "western" "Science" until a few centuries ago. Well, maybe middle eastern, but "western" did not exist for most of recorded history and much of what we would term "western" is a progression from a dominant "middle eastern". But over time us "westerners" have applied the scientific method to that and reject it on that basis.

Anyway, the scientific method has been applied to many old established practices, sometimes validating them, sometimes not. Though, to be fair, there is not a lot of percentage for pharma to validate old remedies that they cannot then gain intellectual property. When it comes to medical science testing and proving can be very expensive indeed. Many valid treatments not yet accepted may have to wait a long time before they are validated.

Your closure is spot on. n=1 is not a test sample. But it is often what we conveniently have to rely upon in the real world. ie If it appeares to work then, in the absence of any reason not to, stick with it.

[zill]

We also have to remember that the Western Scientific establishment/authority is not completely objective and unbiased and most likely far from it considering the recent media exposure on surgeons in Australia.

An eastern medical product therefore may never get the credit it deserves.

[CKinnard]

OK gents, I'd love to engage at this level every time Zill applies Tiger Balm and states his calf is healed/all good, but I think I've got the gist of it now.
Keep sending in regular updates Zill. I'm keen to see you get back to 800 watt repeat efforts. I presume you'll probably even get a few in tomorrow mate.

Meanwhile,

tiger balm
VERSUS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2867336/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3495577/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3362984/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hmmm

[sogood]

The arrogance lies with the easy use of the term 'snake oil' to a well known household topical ointment in the East. As already agreed, the efficacy in this particular case is hard to prove given n=1. By all means question the efficacy of Tiger Balm in this situation but snake oil it's not. In any case, this is all internet diagnosis and assessment, the OP's diagnosis may also be in question. Are even sure it has treated what we thought it treated?

CK, thanks for the links and your level of confidence from diagnosis, pathology and all things on the subject... 3 papers.

[CKinnard]

CK, thanks for the links and your level of confidence from diagnosis, pathology and all things on the subject... 3 papers.

3 pretty good papers that cite 150 others, none of which mention tiger balm. but don't let that erode your confidence in it.

[zill]

the OP's diagnosis may also be in question. Are even sure it has treated what we thought it treated?

I'm keen to see you get back to 800 watt repeat efforts. I presume you'll probably even get a few in tomorrow mate.

The thing with my initial injury in April was that pedaling light hurt a lot but pedaling hard actually blocked the pain, so much so that I completed a 20 min power test (335W) as well as a 5 min power test 3 days after getting the injury (obviously didn't realize it was an injury at the time)! However, pedaling at 30W hurt like hell. Note that I didn't use any oil back then. It was only after visiting the physio 5 days later that I learned how severe the injury was. Took 2 months for the pain to go away. So leg was good in late June and July but hurt it again in August. However, not as severe as before. Now, I am able to pedal at full power but the injured leg still feels somewhat weak during recovery and also requires extra stretching and attention during the ride.

I wonder the fact that I was able to go full gas days after getting injured in April helps to explain that maybe it wasn't a tear after all. But a major strain. Recently in August, I've just restrained it but nowhere near as badly.

[zill]

tiger balm
VERSUS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2867336/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3495577/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3362984/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hmmm

Would be so much better if they actually did an experiment and compared to similar patients who used Tiger Balm.

Meanwhile, my calf feels nearly 100% recovered from the massage on Friday.

[CKinnard]

Would be so much better if they actually did an experiment and compared to similar patients who used Tiger Balm.

Meanwhile, my calf feels nearly 100% recovered from the massage on Friday.

let your legs do the talking zill...
you talk about wishing someone would do a study regarding the benefits of tiger balm.
well how about you get your legs to follow your mouth, and get out on the bike and get into heavy training from today. 10x800 watt reps mate. otherwise, I say Tiger Balm didn't work on you, and you are talking through your hat.

[ColinOldnCranky]

We also have to remember that the Western Scientific establishment/authority is not completely objective and unbiased and most likely far from it considering the recent media exposure on surgeons in Australia.

An eastern medical product therefore may never get the credit it deserves.

I'm not usre what events you are talking of though I am aware that a researcher has had published researched pulled and past papers being reviewed for fraud.

If that is what you are alluding to then that is a strength. Science does not hide it's uncertainties, it put's them out there. Something that things like Inteligent Design and conspiracy theorists and much quackery does not do. It opens up the way to correct or change direction.

Yeah. The media do not report according to merit. They love to report on any out-lier results of genuine research or unexpected results that petre out to a curious dead end.

=============================================
Mods, a lot of the discussion here is wandering off topic (guilty!). Perhaps some of it could be usefully taken out and putting in a separate thread. Something like "Pro's and cons of trad and alternative health" for example.

[zill]

We also have to remember that the Western Scientific establishment/authority is not completely objective and unbiased and most likely far from it considering the recent media exposure on surgeons in Australia.

An eastern medical product therefore may never get the credit it deserves.

I'm not usre what events you are talking of though I am aware that a researcher has had published researched pulled and past papers being reviewed for fraud.

If that is what you are alluding to then that is a strength. Science does not hide it's uncertainties, it put's them out there. Something that things like Inteligent Design and conspiracy theorists and much quackery does not do. It opens up the way to correct or change direction.

Yeah. The media do not report according to merit. They love to report on any out-lier results of genuine research or unexpected results that petre out to a curious dead end.

=============================================
Mods, a lot of the discussion here is wandering off topic (guilty!). Perhaps some of it could be usefully taken out and putting in a separate thread. Something like "Pro's and cons of trad and alternative health" for example.

referring to these

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-04/d ... ry/6751402" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 239823.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CKinnard]

referring to these

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-04/d ... ry/6751402" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 239823.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zill, if you applied the same test to those who advertise natural therapies like Tiger Balm, you'd find at least 98% peddled misleading information or outright lies.
But I bet that wouldn't stop you from spending your hard earned on the quick and uncomplicated option.

Science isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the next best option, which you are paying nothing other than lip service to. Until you get back into hard training, you are no better than generations of snake oil promoters. And whatever beneficial effects Tiger Balm has, will remain undiscovered by you and those reading this thread.

[foo on patrol]

I was always under the impression, that products like Tiger Balm, Deep Heat, Dencorub and the rest of them, were only for muscle pain, not repair ?

Foo

[CKinnard]

I was always under the impression, that products like Tiger Balm, Deep Heat, Dencorub and the rest of them, were only for muscle pain, not repair ?

Foo

That's a fair impression Foo. pain relief, and muscle repair, are not the same thing in anything other than the simplest and untrained of minds.

But people who peddle balms realize most humans have such minds, and rarely put their muscles to severe tests, such as 800 watt efforts.
Hence, the perpetuation of delusion.

[zill]

Felt great riding today. Maybe not 100% strong but more than 95%. Looks like the INTENSE massage definitely helped. Tiger Balm just eased the pain which that is better than not ease the pain. Muscle seem to be healing as well and it's not like I'm putting massive amounts of it on my leg.

[captain peacock]

there is no doubt that heat (and cold) aids in the reduction of inflation, however these creams do nothing than provide the 'senstion' of heat on the surface of the skin....for it to work the heat (or cold) has to penetrate deep to the site of injury, that is why football player have ice baths after games.

the creams just irritate the skin which takes your mind of the sore muscle, you would prob get the same effect by rubbing it on your bollocks.....it'll take your mind of the niggling calf soreness for sure! it does absolutely nothing to aid recover of the injury.

[ColinOldnCranky]

there is no doubt that heat (and cold) aids in the reduction of inflation, however these creams do nothing than provide the 'senstion' of heat on the surface of the skin....for it to work the heat (or cold) has to penetrate deep to the site of injury, that is why football player have ice baths after games.

the creams just irritate the skin which takes your mind of the sore muscle, you would prob get the same effect by rubbing it on your bollocks.....it'll take your mind of the niggling calf soreness for sure! it does absolutely nothing to aid recover of the injury.

But they SMELL so therapeutic.