Quad dominance

[CXCommuter]

Within a week of doing the exercises I saw improvements in my stability on the bike, activation of posterior chain muscles and lower back pain diminished.

It will take at least 12 months to fix and my back is too far gone to completely repair so maintenance is the goal now.

It is an absolute fallacy that all you need to be a fast cyclist is big quads (google glutes in cycling). You need equally strong hips (glutes etc), hamstrings, and core/lower back. For me with strong quads they were hinging off my hips and there was nothing to protect my spine. Glutes are one of the biggest/strongest muscles in the body- they should be used for cycling- why not utilise them!

I wouldn't have thought that the effects would be that soon. I'm doing most of the common core exercises at the moment as well, though not because of injury at the moment, just something I was told to do the last time I was injured ages ago. I've got most of the gym equipment I need to do that stuff at home, so I might as well stop neglecting it. Some weeks of it so far. I can certainly feel the effects of it afterwards. As for on the bike, maybe pedaling at low cadence I'm noticing the difference (more steady).

Everything I have said above is not my opinion, it is that of two extremely high level (and expensive) physiotherapists who deal with professional cyclists as a living.

I don't think you need to make that distinction, it's hardly snake oil or the stuff of charlatans - the benefits are obvious.

On this website I have provided these same idea as my opinion and got derided for it, several members on here delight on providing their own opinions as scientifically validated facts and all other information is worthless I was hoping to head them off before the pass.
Effects were pretty much immediate actually- but that is coming off an extremely low base level of strength/utilisation of my posterior chain. Still a long way to go.

[Macca_CX]

It makes sense CX commuter and is consistent with what I have come across in my research. Thanks for the feedback

[Alex Simmons/RST]

There's various versions of this diagram, but its basically saying push forward over the top if you want to use more glute

That diagram is incorrect and has been debunked before.

It's a shame it keeps getting trotted out.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

It is an absolute fallacy that all you need to be a fast cyclist is big quads (google glutes in cycling). You need equally strong hips (glutes etc), hamstrings, and core/lower back. For me with strong quads they were hinging off my hips and there was nothing to protect my spine. Glutes are one of the biggest/strongest muscles in the body- they should be used for cycling- why not utilise them!!

Quad dominance is one of the biggest causes of injury in recreational cyclists.

Everything I have said above is not my opinion, it is that of two extremely high level (and expensive) physiotherapists who deal with professional cyclists as a living.

What's an absolute fallacy that strength and endurance cycling speed are related at all.

If physios are really saying that, then they have poor understanding of physiological determinants of cycling performance.

Cycling is a very low force activity.

I'd like to read up on the research that suggests quad dominance is one of the biggest causes of injury in recreational cyclists. That's not what research into cycling injuries that I've noted indicates, in which very little reference to quads is made.

In the early 1990s there was a study covering the primary causes of the ~500,000 cycling injuries in the USA resulting in hospitalisation. Quads didn't rate a mention. More than half were trauma due to crashes with other vehicles, cars mostly.

Putting aside crash injury, a more specific study into over use injuries of 518 recreational cyclists found

the most common anatomical sites for overuse injury/complaints reported by the male and female cyclists combined were the neck (48.8%), followed by the knees (41.7%), groin/buttocks (36.1%), hands (31.1%), and back (30.3%).

A 2006 review of the literature concluded

The most common sites for non-traumatic cycling-related injuries include the knee, neck/shoulder, hands, buttock and perineum.

I'm glad that whatever you are doing is helping you feel better as finding the (legit) things that help each of us ride better is a good thing. I suspect however that the issues, causes and interventions discussed are perhaps mis-characterised.

[mikesbytes]

There's various versions of this diagram, but its basically saying push forward over the top if you want to use more glute

That diagram is incorrect and has been debunked before.

It's a shame it keeps getting trotted out.

Where's a better diagram?

[Alex Simmons/RST]

There's various versions of this diagram, but its basically saying push forward over the top if you want to use more glute

That diagram is incorrect and has been debunked before.

It's a shame it keeps getting trotted out.

Where's a better diagram?

It's not nearly as simple as attempting to make such a muscle use diagram which implies muscles are "binary-like" in the nature of how and when they contribute, as most of the relevant muscles are activated most of the time during all phases of the pedal stroke, to varying and complex degrees, and some play varying roles during a pedal stroke.

This one perhaps gives a little better sense of that although an incomplete picture:



I think the chart above is just another way of representing some of the data from Ryan and Gregor's 1992 paper on EMG of leg muscle activation which formed this chart showing EMG for various muscle at constant work rate and cadence but under different conditions (seated, seated climbing and standing climbing):



Note that the EMG signal is not the same as the forces being applied.

[CXCommuter]

It is an absolute fallacy that all you need to be a fast cyclist is big quads (google glutes in cycling). You need equally strong hips (glutes etc), hamstrings, and core/lower back. For me with strong quads they were hinging off my hips and there was nothing to protect my spine. Glutes are one of the biggest/strongest muscles in the body- they should be used for cycling- why not utilise them!!

Quad dominance is one of the biggest causes of injury in recreational cyclists.

Everything I have said above is not my opinion, it is that of two extremely high level (and expensive) physiotherapists who deal with professional cyclists as a living.

What's an absolute fallacy that strength and endurance cycling speed are related at all.

If physios are really saying that, then they have poor understanding of physiological determinants of cycling performance.

Cycling is a very low force activity.

I'd like to read up on the research that suggests quad dominance is one of the biggest causes of injury in recreational cyclists. That's not what research into cycling injuries that I've noted indicates, in which very little reference to quads is made.

In the early 1990s there was a study covering the primary causes of the ~500,000 cycling injuries in the USA resulting in hospitalisation. Quads didn't rate a mention. More than half were trauma due to crashes with other vehicles, cars mostly.

Putting aside crash injury, a more specific study into over use injuries of 518 recreational cyclists found

the most common anatomical sites for overuse injury/complaints reported by the male and female cyclists combined were the neck (48.8%), followed by the knees (41.7%), groin/buttocks (36.1%), hands (31.1%), and back (30.3%).

A 2006 review of the literature concluded

The most common sites for non-traumatic cycling-related injuries include the knee, neck/shoulder, hands, buttock and perineum.

I'm glad that whatever you are doing is helping you feel better as finding the (legit) things that help each of us ride better is a good thing. I suspect however that the issues, causes and interventions discussed are perhaps mis-characterised.

Not my statements so I am not going to argue them aside from I stuffed up re the injury- the statement should be that posterior chain inactivation/weakness is the primary cause of non traumatic long term cycling injuries (ie overuse?). I would think anyone who works with track cyclists (and not just sprinters) at elite level would understand the physiological requirements of cyclists. In fact I would agree that the vast majority of physio's have no idea when it comes to cyclists overuse injuries and under emphasize the role of posterior chain.

[mikesbytes]

Alex, the diagram you posted shows the Glute max being used in the same part of the pedal stroke as the simplified diagram.



Pushing forward over the top. Though perhaps I should describe it a little more precisely as pushing forward from the top

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Alex, the diagram you posted shows the Glute max being used in the same part of the pedal stroke as the simplified diagram.
Pushing forward over the top. Though perhaps I should describe it a little more precisely as pushing forward from the top

Of course there are overlaps, but it's a gross simplification and for some muscle groups it's wrong.

[billygoatgruff]

Hi Macca,

Sounds similar to problems I had, which I was able to slowly resolve. It was like cresting a big hill, difficult, but when I persisted and after things started going well eventually it got much easier. Now my glutes are actively involved in pedalling and noticeably bigger than when I still had problems.

Specifically, my outer quads were dominant whereas my glutes and my VMOs were sleepy. This was after being fit, becoming unfit, then trying to quickly get fit again. My dominant muscles answered the call but other muscles including my glutes got left behind.

I'll try summarise what I did, but keep in mind I'm not an expert and YMMV:
- I did the typical exercises prescribed by a physio to strengthen and "wake up" the glutes and VMOs even when it seemed like they weren't working (yet). You might be doing some of these exercises already, but an obscure one you might not be aware of is the "hip hike" which I strongly recommend.
- I switched to ONLY doing single-leg exercises. No regular squats. Only step downs, step ups, Bulgarian split squats, single-leg stiff leg dumbbell deadlifts, etc. and more recently single-leg box jumps. This was originally intended to fix the outer quad / VMO imbalance but ended up being a huge factor in activating and strengthening my glutes.
- Eventually I moved my saddle up and FORWARD (more on this later).
- I bought a foam roller and lacrosse ball and I continue to use these regularly for self-massage.
- Later I switched to a somewhat anti-inflammatory diet. Maybe not relevant.

Conventional wisdom is that you should move your saddle BACKWARD to increase glute activation, but in my case at least I found that my glutes became happiest after I moved my saddle UP and FORWARD. This is highly controversial, but in my opinion I suspect that when people's glutes become more involved due to moving their seat backward, it might be mainly the effective lengthening of the pedal stroke that causes the benefits (similar to raising the saddle) more than the fore-aft change. Keep in mind I'm 171cm (5'7") so it might also be related to my dimensions compared to taller riders.

For me the kind of self-massage that people refer to as "myofascial release" had a big impact, maybe even more than stretching. I needed to release tightness in virtually every muscle in my calves, upper legs, hips and lower back. And as my glutes eventually started to fire, they would fatigue and get crampy much more quickly than my other muscles and consequently needed a lot of massage. On this note, sometimes I would do glute exercises immediately before a ride just so my glutes had a bit of tired feeling in them so I would have some feedback to be able to focus on using them to pedal, although I don't think it is a good idea to do this too much; I think the recent research suggests that intentionally pre-exhausting a specific muscle to target it is not a good way of increasing its strength.

You might find different things will work for you, but I want to emphasise that there IS light at the end of the tunnel!