Chronic exertional compartment syndrome

[zill]

How big were the changes they made?

Biggest change was a 2cm drop in saddle height!

Compared to the bike that originally got me injured, it's a 3cm drop in saddle height.

Cripes, little wonder you've had problems.

The problem is not my leg length but the way how my feet and angles are pointed when pedaling. You can hence see how my calf would be affected as a result. Standard fitters don't take this into consideration!

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The problem is not my leg length but the way how my feet and angles are pointed when pedaling. You can hence see how my calf would be affected as a result. Standard fitters don't take this into consideration!

If you've never been fitted before, how would you know?

[zill]

The problem is not my leg length but the way how my feet and angles are pointed when pedaling. You can hence see how my calf would be affected as a result. Standard fitters don't take this into consideration!

If you've never been fitted before, how would you know?

Just had a fit earlier in the week and that is how I know!

[eeksll]

different fitters will have different opinions on seat height too. I don't know if either is necessarily wrong (disregarding any specific personal issues).

My first fitter had me pedalling with slightly bent knee and a flat foot at the bottom.

When I got my second bike, that fitter had me on my toes at the bottom with a similar slightly bent knee.

there was atleast an inch difference in seat height.

[zill]

different fitters will have different opinions on seat height too. I don't know if either is necessarily wrong (disregarding any specific personal issues).

My first fitter had me pedalling with slightly bent knee and a flat foot at the bottom.

When I got my second bike, that fitter had me on my toes at the bottom with a similar slightly bent knee.

there was atleast an inch difference in seat height.

Did that fitter change his philosophy of fitting between the two fits?

[ft_critical]

FWIW Zill, I injured my calf cycling a contributor to which was too high a saddle. With your saddle adjusted it should now have the opportunity to heal properly. My experience is that it takes a very long time due to the limited blood flow (so I read) and it is vulnerable ever after. If I cycle a lot, particularly higher intensity (higher rpm) in say crits, the calf starts to tighten and requires active regular stretching.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

different fitters will have different opinions on seat height too. I don't know if either is necessarily wrong (disregarding any specific personal issues).

My first fitter had me pedalling with slightly bent knee and a flat foot at the bottom.

When I got my second bike, that fitter had me on my toes at the bottom with a similar slightly bent knee.

there was atleast an inch difference in seat height.

A bit of height variation especially is dealing with crank length differences (or if you like to experiment with mid foot cleat placement), and different bike type (TT v road v track with different seat tube angles etc) but for same type of bike and set up an inch is way too much variation for saddle height.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The problem is not my leg length but the way how my feet and angles are pointed when pedaling. You can hence see how my calf would be affected as a result. Standard fitters don't take this into consideration!

If you've never been fitted before, how would you know?

Just had a fit earlier in the week and that is how I know!

That's my point. If you've never had a fit you before then, how would you know what they do or don't take into consideration?

[zill]

That's my point. If you've never had a fit you before then, how would you know what they do or don't take into consideration?

I have been fitted for 15min at bike shops. All of them use standard formulas to determine saddle height.

The new fitter saw the original fits and realised it was not good. Is that what you are getting at?

[zill]

FWIW Zill, I injured my calf cycling a contributor to which was too high a saddle. With your saddle adjusted it should now have the opportunity to heal properly. My experience is that it takes a very long time due to the limited blood flow (so I read) and it is vulnerable ever after. If I cycle a lot, particularly higher intensity (higher rpm) in say crits, the calf starts to tighten and requires active regular stretching.

Are you suggesting that you are permanently damaged in your calf?

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I have been fitted for 15min at bike shops. All of them use standard formulas to determine saddle height.

OK, that's not a bike fit.

[zill]

I have been fitted for 15min at bike shops. All of them use standard formulas to determine saddle height.

OK, that's not a bike fit.

I see what you are getting at now. My comments are a mixture of seeing partially what fitters do during proper bike fits at shops and hearing stories about them (some bad). Never experienced them myself though.

[CKinnard]

Zill, on a trip to Europe this year, I had discussions with two current UCI Pro Tour physiotherapists.
One saddle height guide currently being tested is the level that permits the highest cadence without bum bounce.

I raise this not to give you some inner sanctum secret, but to make you realize how flavor of the month bike fitting is.
At the end of the day, the primary disconnect between pro and amateur cyclist, is bodyfat %, nutrition and sleep quality.
Get these sorted Zill, and my money is on you finding your calf pain (et al) will go away.

But these things are the hardest to get on top of. I've just come back from the USA, where I consulted to a top MMA fighter. Guess what the hardest part of their training camp was! the Calorie restricted nutrient dense diet!

[zill]

Zill, on a trip to Europe this year, I had discussions with two current UCI Pro Tour physiotherapists.
One saddle height guide currently being tested is the level that permits the highest cadence without bum bounce.

So is it best to have the lowest saddle height "possible"? Is that why Froome seem to have a lower than usual saddle height?

My fit was done by a physio so you'd think his first priority is to get me pedaling pain free.

the hardest part of their training camp was! the Calorie restricted nutrient dense diet!

Yes, have realised this long ago! If I can cycle pain free than will most likely be motivated to get into shape again!

[CKinnard]

Zill, on a trip to Europe this year, I had discussions with two current UCI Pro Tour physiotherapists.
One saddle height guide currently being tested is the level that permits the highest cadence without bum bounce.

So is it best to have the lowest saddle height "possible"? Is that why Froome seem to have a lower than usual saddle height?

My fit was done by a physio so you'd think his first priority is to get me pedaling pain free.

the hardest part of their training camp was! the Calorie restricted nutrient dense diet!

Yes, have realised this long ago! If I can cycle pain free than will most likely be motivated to get into shape again!

No, you have the highest saddle height possible, without bum bounce...not the lowest saddle height possible! bum bounce gets worse with higher saddle height.

No, you miss the point again. You get diet right, and you'll get healthy enough to be able to ride. Only dipstick morons use cardio to lose weight.

[zill]

Regardless of cardio or not, It's impossible to lose weight when you can't sleep but need it to not feel like a zoombie during the day.

Trying melatonin for two weeks in order not to wake up in the middle of the night. Once I correct my sleeping problems, weight loss shouldn't be a problem even without cycling as I've worked out how much to eat!

[Alex Simmons/RST]

When it comes to bike fitting, I would consult a quality bike fitter, not a physiotherapist. If a quality bike fitter happens to be a physio, fine. Bike fit is an evolving process. It changes as you do and a good fitter should be happy to see you for adjustments, discuss any concerns, deal with issues that arise etc.

Also, if you do make changes, allow yourself some time of easy(ier) riding to adapt before going full gas. The bigger the change, the more time needed. Could be days to weeks depending on what you've done and the riding you typically do.

As for cadence and bum bounce, like most things where cadence is given as a guide, there is a massive difference depending on the load. Any advice that provides cadence as the primary guideline is to be treated with a large grain of salt. Some of the worst fits on riders I've seen were done by pro teams, indeed I've seen some stupid things nearly end riders careers. Often athletes at that level are so good that they cope despite what's done to them.

[CKinnard]

Any advice that provides cadence as the primary guideline is to be treated with a large grain of salt.

These emphatic stances of yours are so telling Alex.

Over the years, I have had a regular stream of cyclists seeing me after they saw a professional bike fitter, including Steve Hogg.
They've been told all sorts of bro science piffle about why they have pain.
I've never met a bike fitter trained in biomechanics or clinical pathophysiology, to any practically meaningful degree.
Fitting a seasoned rider or a fit 20yo, requires little skill. Fitting someone with significant asymmetries, chronic morbidity, or just in an aging body, requires a lot more.

OTOH, a lot of physios have no idea about bike fitting. Ethical ones would admit it and refer on. I have a list of physios who specialize in various sports that I refer clients to - swimming, gymnastics, dance. But often even they don't nail issues. Sometimes resolving issues is a trial and error approach, and clients lose patience, or confidence, or run out of money before a solution is found. So then they go off and see someone else, and bag the original clinician.

It's the same story with medical specialists. Many emphatically pronounce what is causing a patient's pain, when they're actually got it wrong.
I've been involved in 4 Work Cover Qld litigation cases over the last few years against specialists whose emphatic posturing, diagnosis, and advice to patients was WRONG! It's scary and but satisfying to see a medically competent QC tear into these lairs.

From the above, a wise view is the more emphatic and absolutist someone is on a complex issue involving the body, the more weary you want to be of how well trained and experienced they are. Everything seems simple to simple arrogant minds.

[Tim]

Nup, not the slightest hint of posturing or arrogance in the above post, nor any other post from it's author.

[ft_critical]

Nup, not the slightest hint of posturing or arrogance in the above post, nor any other post from it's author.

But the below would seem pretty close to the mark.

Sometimes resolving issues is a trial and error approach, and clients lose patience, or confidence, or run out of money before a solution is found.

[eeksll]

different fitters will have different opinions on seat height too. I don't know if either is necessarily wrong (disregarding any specific personal issues).

My first fitter had me pedalling with slightly bent knee and a flat foot at the bottom.

When I got my second bike, that fitter had me on my toes at the bottom with a similar slightly bent knee.

there was atleast an inch difference in seat height.

Did that fitter change his philosophy of fitting between the two fits?

Different fitters. First one I paid for after having a read of bike forums and every cyclist and their dog telling people to get a proper bike fit. This fitter told me to pedal with a flat as possible foot. I didn't have any issues, I just jumped on the band wagon.

The second one was a fit as part of my bike purchase. The guy who did it really believed in what he was doing and had jigs and all that jazz, he certainly wasn't trying to rush me out the door or anything. This fitter had me pedalling on my toes.

But after 3-4 years pedalling with flat foot, the higher seat was never going to be comfortable. Which is right? I don't know, but I have dropped the seatpost to something that is much more comfortable for me.

[CKinnard]

Nup, not the slightest hint of posturing or arrogance in the above post, nor any other post from it's author.

Unlike the attitude behind your post/s.

[Kalgrm]

This thread is now locked, since we seem to have reached the end of any meaningful discussion and resorted to chest-beating.

Zill, PM me if you'd like it to reopen for further discussion about your requested information.

Cheers,
Graeme