When you lose weight where does it go?

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Aussiebullet
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Aussiebullet » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:26 am

big booty wrote:
Aussiebullet wrote:He could still eat a high carb low fat diet to match his energy needs, it's just going to be a lower amount then when he is highly active, eating carbs won't make him fat, eating excess calories will, carbs are not the enemy. Oh how I wish that myth would die.

OK you have me confused?? Carbohydrates = calories. If you ingest carbs, you are by default ingesting calorific matter. Eat more carbohydrates than your body needs (for your given situation) and the excess is first stored as glycogen and then eventually stored as triglycerides. Or am I missing something?

I'm sorry, wasn't trying to make it sound complicated, you are right eat more calories than you burn and can store as glycogen and you'll put on weight, I was making the point that regardless of macronutrient type someone with a broken leg on a high carb diet say 80/10/10 burning 1900cal/day and eating 1900cal/day 80% of calories from carbs, they would not get fat.
All nutritional needs can be met on those ratio's under 2000cal I've done it myself on ~ 80/10/10. Punched the numbers into a few online calculators and met all my needs, however I'm not a vegan so dairy products provided B12, nut's & seeds provided EFA's.
If said vegan person in above posts makes poor food choices it's on them.

Aussiebullet
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Aussiebullet » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:33 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:I wonder if mention of FIGJAM :roll: aka BananaBoy :roll: should be treated in much he same way as Godwin's Law. It's a strong predictor that a thread is about to move to a pointless dead end.

Hmmm. Pointless dead end? I think I may be another good descriptor of FIGJAM. :mrgreen:

:lol:

I feel your right, we've all gotten pedantic and gone way off topic, let this thread RIP.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:04 am

Aussiebullet wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:I wonder if mention of FIGJAM :roll: aka BananaBoy :roll: should be treated in much he same way as Godwin's Law. It's a strong predictor that a thread is about to move to a pointless dead end.

Hmmm. Pointless dead end? I think I may be another good descriptor of FIGJAM. :mrgreen:

:lol:

I feel your right, we've all gotten pedantic and gone way off topic, let this thread RIP.
Yes! I posted a video that basically says energy released, carbon formed, carbon dioxide breathed out. Then people started going off about banana eaters and diabetes. Go and ride a bike, people. While you're doing it, breathe.

Constantheadwind
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Constantheadwind » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:31 pm

Good Idea, got the brompton ready for tonight.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby zill » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:49 pm

Hardest thing is eating less for me. Love cycling so breathing is easy!

big booty
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby big booty » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:59 pm

OK another biochemistry question since my first one was easily answered. Who would have thought the answer was CO2 + H2O.

After a long ride (or a fasting day) the glycogen reserves should be pretty well depleted. Well the glycogen content in my legs at least if I did a long ride. If I don't eat prior to going to bed does the body top up the glycogen in my legs from stored fat or will I still be empty the next day? Can glycogen only be topped up by eating?

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby moosterbounce » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:40 am

Kalgrm wrote:It goes on to my wife's hips.

Cheers,
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I know I've come into this conversation late, but I didn't know we were married!! :wink:

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Cheesewheel
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Cheesewheel » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:16 am

Kalgrm wrote:It goes on to my wife's hips.

Cheers,
Graeme
I thought it went to the fat fairy

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Kalgrm
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Kalgrm » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:15 am

moosterbounce wrote:
Kalgrm wrote:It goes on to my wife's hips.

Cheers,
Graeme
I know I've come into this conversation late, but I didn't know we were married!! :wink:
We must have been married in a former life and still be connected psychically. You're not a compulsive talker, are you? Because, sometimes, I just get this nagging feeling …

;)

Cheers,
Graeme
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:32 am

I understand that we breathe the weight out, ie the carbon. Any other atoms removed from the body must depart using another avenue. And this brings up some questions;

1. To loose say 0.5kg in a week, what is the breakdown in elements in that 0.5kg?
- Carbon
- Water
- Other

2. What is the weight of the CO2 expelled from the body

3. How much breathing do we need to do to expel that CO2
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Duck! » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:01 pm

big booty wrote:This one is for all you biochemists out there. Matter can not be created or destroyed. So when you are losing weight (by dieting or exercising) how is the stored fat leaving your body?
Short version - you wee it out. When the body is asked to draw energy from the fat stores, the useful (and some not useful) components are absorbed into the bloodstream and distributed to all the working cells. The cells use what they can, and the waste products are discharged back into the bloodstream. These waste products are then filtered out in the kidneys, mixed into a dilute solution with water and expelled from the body.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:46 pm

All is explained here.....http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
thankyou my friend Ruben.

However, what Ruben never got around to was discussing the most efficient activity to burn fat.
It turns out that too much intensity burns very little fat.

Therefore, the best weight loss (fat loss) strategy is to do activities that don't get you breathing too hard.
The harder you breathe, the more carbs you burn, as opposed to fat.

And as Ruben found out, DON'T rely on your GP for anything related to weight management........they are not trained in fundamental physics or biochemistry adequately. so all they are giving you is ego and arrogance.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Calvin27 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:42 am

CKinnard wrote: Therefore, the best weight loss (fat loss) strategy is to do activities that don't get you breathing too hard.
The harder you breathe, the more carbs you burn, as opposed to fat.
I disagree. A lot of the reason why high intensity is popular is because most people simply have no time to burn fat. So a 1 hour slow ride might burn more than a 15 minute sprint session. But if you only have 20 minutes, there is no comparison - you'd go for intensity each and every time in a time contrained context. Also high intensity assists with weight reduction in other ways such as better muscle development which increases base metabolism.
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:54 pm

Calvin27 wrote:
CKinnard wrote: Therefore, the best weight loss (fat loss) strategy is to do activities that don't get you breathing too hard.
The harder you breathe, the more carbs you burn, as opposed to fat.
I disagree. A lot of the reason why high intensity is popular is because most people simply have no time to burn fat. So a 1 hour slow ride might burn more than a 15 minute sprint session. But if you only have 20 minutes, there is no comparison - you'd go for intensity each and every time in a time contrained context. Also high intensity assists with weight reduction in other ways such as better muscle development which increases base metabolism.
Yeah I used to believe what you are getting at, because the texts show even though a smaller % fat is burned at higher intensity exercise, by volume it's higher than with lower intensity activity.

But after seeing dozens of clients do what you suggest, and fail to get the weight off, I changed my mind. AIS dietitians I deal with say the same.

Let's forget about healthy regular athletes with starting bodyfat under 20%, and think about people who are heavier and have trouble shifting it permanently. Invariably they have a degree of insulin resistance which is why they are always stuffing their faces. What happens when they start lifting exercise intensity - bang! they start burning through the CHO stores; and within a couple of hours they are hit with a rebound sugar craving, and end up overshooting on carb intake.

The other thing is as you lift exercise intensity you lift stress hormones, and overweight people are often already overstressed.

A guideline I suggest is to do the exercise intensity that gives you the best night sleep and sees you most fresh in the mornings.
Many who do high intensity stuff get even worse sleep and feel tapped out during the day.

Building muscle is done more efficiently without high intensity cardio.

Anyway, I'm on the natural movement bandwagon at the moment.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby madmacca » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:54 pm

Calvin27 wrote:
CKinnard wrote: Therefore, the best weight loss (fat loss) strategy is to do activities that don't get you breathing too hard.
The harder you breathe, the more carbs you burn, as opposed to fat.
I disagree. A lot of the reason why high intensity is popular is because most people simply have no time to burn fat. So a 1 hour slow ride might burn more than a 15 minute sprint session. But if you only have 20 minutes, there is no comparison - you'd go for intensity each and every time in a time contrained context. Also high intensity assists with weight reduction in other ways such as better muscle development which increases base metabolism.
I agree (with the disagreement). Weight loss is about calories burned versus calories consumed OVER THE ENTIRE 24 HOUR DAY, not about where energy is coming during your workout. But from a time efficiency point of view, high intensity is compelling. If like most of us, you can only devote 30 or 40 minutes a day to exercise, you should be pursuing more intensity as it will burn more calories and create a larger calorie deficit. Plus the fitness increase from higher intensity over lower intensity means that over a few weeks you will be able to increase the calorie burn in the same amount of workout time.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby madmacca » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:27 pm

softy wrote:Okay,

After watching that vid on "where does the fat go" been doing a wee bit of research, cross referencing a number of sites. Now carbs (the badies at the moment) provides our body with most of its energy, if we have to much it is turned to glycogen. Then if we still have to much it is turned to fat. Now although it can be turned to fat, the body prefers to use it as it is hard to store, tending to store fat and protein and use the carbs.

Therefore eating lots of carbs is not as likely to make you fat as other sources of food eg: fat protein.

Now as cyclists we are chasing energy, therefore eating more carbs is going to meet our energy needs. The standard recommendation is to eat 45 to 65% carbs so we want more due to our high activity levels! Push this up another 10 -20% and we get up to around 80% of carbs.

There is a guy from South Oz, which we all know pushing these ratios. Now we all have chooses to do whatever we like and conduct our own research, but the more i look into this the more what he says in general, makes sense.

Some may not like his style, but i do believe he is not to far off the mark with the high carb diet. The evidence i have found supports his suggestions. He also has been saying fat is breathed out for some time now.

Vegan or not, i do believe aligning yourself with his suggestions of High Carb, is somewhat on the money, even if you do want to include some animal products, but maintain the ratios.

Of course just my view and findings..... :)
Weight loss is more an issue of psychology, than physiology.

It takes the body about 20 minutes to digest simple carbs, 2 hours to digest complex carbs, 5 hours to digest fat, and 7 hours to digest protein. (I'm grossly oversimplifying here, but it will serve for the purposes of discussion.) A higher proportion of fat and protein will keep you feeling fuller for longer.

If you ran a strict scientific experiment, where researchers closely controlled what their subjects (and the control group) could eat, you may well find that the efficiency loss in converting carbs to fat resulted in a lower weight gain.

But in real life, people get to choose what they eat, and those decisions often reflect emotions rather than strictly rational choices. Feeling fuller longer will likely lead to less overeating.

The other thing with the South Oz guy and the ratios you refer to, 80/10/10, is that he is eating 3000 calories a day to support an extremely high level of physical activity, and his ratios represent around 300 calories of fats, and 300 calories of protein. If you scale things back to more typically recommended intake of 2000 calories/day, then the same ratios would give only 200 calories of fat and 200 of protein - and it is more difficult to get the full range of essential fats and amino acids the body needs at these intake levels. I'm not saying he is necessarily wrong, just that ratios is probably too narrow a way to look at things without also considering absolute intake levels.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:36 am

Indeed, with a high calorie diet its easy, for example to get the protein requirements as the allocated % will still be sufficient for the individual's needs. Personally I don't see intake as a ratio, but the need for each food group then add to reach the desired calorie intake
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Constantheadwind » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:04 am

If weather is foul I've tried HIIT spinning, found it to be most disagreeable as compared to a long jog or cycle. But yeah bad weather or lack of time and not wanting to be sedentary drives me to do it. Definitely sleep better if such exercise is performed in the morning not evenings.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:07 pm

madmacca wrote:I agree (with the disagreement). Weight loss is about calories burned versus calories consumed OVER THE ENTIRE 24 HOUR DAY, not about where energy is coming during your workout. But from a time efficiency point of view, high intensity is compelling. If like most of us, you can only devote 30 or 40 minutes a day to exercise, you should be pursuing more intensity as it will burn more calories and create a larger calorie deficit. Plus the fitness increase from higher intensity over lower intensity means that over a few weeks you will be able to increase the calorie burn in the same amount of workout time.
Yes, yours is the typical view of those who speak with all the wisdom of anecdote, or reading a lot of internet blogs.
As I said above, if you genuinely consider the full 24 hour period, or even a whole week, you will find insulin resistant people have a rebound appetite after doing higher intensity exercise, that replaces the Calories burned, and then some. Here's an anecdote for you - I rode every day from Christmas Day til January 3, 460km over 10 days. Each day I rode 1-2 hours, at least half was at a moderately high to high intensity.

How much weight do you think I lost?

The answer is nothing.....and for every big week of riding I've done, I've lost nothing. So my anecdotal experience blows your view out of the water.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby cyclotaur » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:59 pm

I once rode 870 km and climbed 19000m over 14 days - I was away for 3 weeks, ate like a horse and lost 3 kgs.

Just another anecdote though.....
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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby Constantheadwind » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:09 pm

I did 5 * 30 second max spin intervals with 30 sec recoveries betwixt this arvo. Felt like throwing up not hungry at all afterward.
Reaffirmed my previous stance that I'm not a huge fan of HIIT. But better than a wet behind or wet joggers.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby big booty » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:All is explained here.....http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
thankyou my friend Ruben.

However, what Ruben never got around to was discussing the most efficient activity to burn fat.
It turns out that too much intensity burns very little fat.

Therefore, the best weight loss (fat loss) strategy is to do activities that don't get you breathing too hard.
The harder you breathe, the more carbs you burn, as opposed to fat.
Im not sure if what you said is completely correct. I suppose it depends on what you call breathing too hard? There is a seminal paper by Romijn et al. (1993) that looked at energy expenditure during exercise. There is an increase in total fat burned as you go from 25% VO2max to 65% VO2 max. From 65% to 85% there is a small decrease in total fat burned and a huge increase in muscle glycogen. However even at 85% VO2max you are burning more fat than you would be at 25%. I suppose you want to be somewhere around 65% to maximise the fat burning.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby big booty » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:00 pm

Got no problem with what youre saying CK. At low intensity your not burning any glycogen (or very little). Its a little glucose and mostly fats. So 3 hours of 25% VO2max would burn slightly less fat than 1 hour at 65% VO2max but youre not going to burn any glycogen. So post exercise youre not going to be wanting a sugar/carb top up. So if youre goal is weight loss, slow and steady for a long session is the way to go I suspect. I still however maintain that at high intensity it is not correct to say that fat burning is severely reduced. It is still about as high as it was at a low intensity workout, its just that glycogen consumption will have gone through the roof.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:02 pm

cyclotaur wrote:I once rode 870 km and climbed 19000m over 14 days - I was away for 3 weeks, ate like a horse and lost 3 kgs.

Just another anecdote though.....
what was your weight loss 2 weeks after getting home?

I rode 800km in a week, and 320km in a day, and net weight loss was nothing a week later in both cases.
What you don't volunteer cyclotaur is your bodyfat % before starting.

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Re: When you lose weight where does it go?

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:14 pm

big booty wrote:Got no problem with what youre saying CK. At low intensity your not burning any glycogen (or very little). Its a little glucose and mostly fats. So 3 hours of 25% VO2max would burn slightly less fat than 1 hour at 65% VO2max but youre not going to burn any glycogen. So post exercise youre not going to be wanting a sugar/carb top up. So if youre goal is weight loss, slow and steady for a long session is the way to go I suspect. I still however maintain that at high intensity it is not correct to say that fat burning is severely reduced. It is still about as high as it was at a low intensity workout, its just that glycogen consumption will have gone through the roof.
One cannot sustain 85%VO2max (92%HRmax) for very long. And as CHO stores are run down, the evidence shows the majority of overweight and obese people, who also suffer from insulin resistance, will overfeed on CHO, with the excess being converted to fat.

So when considering what activity is best for weight loss, you have to look at real life examples over 3 months or more.
People who have gained weight usually have dysregulated endocrine function. They also have reduced capacity to burn off excess Calories with too large a meal, via brown adipose fat tissue thermogenesis, or sympathetic nerve thermogenesis. This is why they gain weight more readily than those who don't.

In my clinical experience and that of researchers in the field I communicate with regularly, managing stress and increasing low intensity activity is the surest way to cut bodyfat. In general those who lose weight via moderate to high intensity exercise, put it back on once they drop their activity level because they never learned to manage the stressors that amongst other things, dysregulated their endocrine system.

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