cramping advice needed

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newierider
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cramping advice needed

Postby newierider » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:27 pm

HI guys, I managed to get my 100k gran Fondo badge on Strava yesterday. this is my longest ever ride as I Am fairly new to road riding. 50k was my longest ride as of yesterday.

80k in I was cramping on my inner quad and the front outside of my left foot.

the ride took just over 4 hrs in 30+ degree heat. I went through just over 4 litres of water, 2 gels, 2 carb bars and a banana.

I weighed in 2 kilos less when I got home. I currently weigh 100 kilos, Strava says I burned 2500kcal.

my question to you guys is, was cramping due to not being condoned to do this length of ride yet? did I not eat/drink enough?

I had slight cramp niggle at 50k, I had a gel and 10 min later it went away.. not sure if it was the gel or the fact that I was drinking at the time.

my cadence ranged from 80-120

thanks for your advice

macca33
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby macca33 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Dehydration and the fact it is the longest you've ridden will have both played a part in it mate. Keep at it and your fitness will definitely improve - and with that and proper hydration / nutrition, the cramps will literally disappear.

Kudos for doing it too!

cheers
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madmacca
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby madmacca » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:41 pm

Extending from 50K to 100K is not too big a deal if you get the pacing right, but I'm not sure I would want to get a new maximum in those kind of temps.

Of course, regular riding in the heat helps acclimitisation, and your body will adapt by losing less electrolytes in the heat. Just don't combine high temperatures with new personal maximums.

If you got home 2kg less, this is a sign you didn't drink enough and were dehydrated.

You might also be light on in terms of electrolyte replacement. If you are drinking that much to replace the water you are losing, you need to be replacing electrolytes as well. The banana helps, but probably not enough. Personally, I work on the principle that every 3rd bottle should include electrolytes (I know others who include electrolytes in every 2nd). I carry a small baggie of electrolyte powder, and dump it in when refilling my bottle.

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moreegolfer
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby moreegolfer » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:10 pm

Have you been fitted for your bike position? IMO poor position will cause cramping, I have been there and hardly ever cramp now my position is optimised. It costs money but money well spent.

newierider
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby newierider » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:53 pm

thanks so much guys. great advice.
re. fitting.. yeah I got fitted when I bought the bike but to be honest, I feel like there's too much weight on my hands.. I might give it a go though

CKinnard
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:57 pm

Your water and food intake during the ride looks adequate, but as others said if you were 2kg lighter, then you didnt get enough.
But many start a ride dehydrated, at least 1 liter of fluid in deficit. Why so? when most guys your size wake up in the morning, you are down 1-1.5 liters of fluid cf 7pm the night before, due to urinating, breathing, unconscious perspiration. So when you wake in the morning, before getting on the bike, it's important to preload most of that fluid. If you don't, 10-15 minutes into the ride your mouth will be really dry, as well as your muscles.
You want to google the AIS and its recommendations for fluid intake, especially post ride.

Based on your low average speed (25kph), I presume there were a lot of hills, or you just rode slow.
If there were lots of hills, it is common to recruit the 'inside quads' (adductor muscles) when pedaling with greater effort such as uphill, especially as you get more tired.
The adductors are notorious for cramping on longer rides, esp with lots of climbing.
Why so?
1. As you tire, your quads weaken most...your adductors start to kick in to help on the down stroke. For many, they will note their knee deviates inwards on the downstroke due to a stronger contribution from the adductors.
2. The adductors rarely get stretched, and are often scarred up with old tears. These tears are not well vascularized, so are more prone to electrolyte and fluid imbalance and fatigue ergo cramping.

To avoid cramps next time,
- get your legs massaged firmly 2-3 times starting 2 months before the event. This will hurt!
- stretch a couple of times a week
- eat healthily all the time.
- depending on your sweat rate, take electrolyte drink during the ride, not water.

newierider
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby newierider » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:09 pm

thanks for that. I had about half a litre before I went out. according to gps/strava, I climbed about 750metres over 101k.
also, as a beginner I didn't think averaging 25kph on a ride like that was slow? I know it's not fast but considering my weight on those climbs..
suffer store on strava was 125 "tough" :)

fat and old
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby fat and old » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:56 pm

25kmh ave is not slow.

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Derny Driver
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:11 pm

Yeah 25 is not slow. I know NRS riders who train at 25kph.
Now to the old chestnut. Type the word cramp into the yop search box to bring up the last 40 pages of old wives tales and mumbo jumbo.
Cramps are caused by electrical impulses in the muscle going haywire due to OVERUSE. A perfect example of that would be a person whose muscles are accustomed to doing 50k, riding double that.
Spend money on bike fits, lotions and potions if you want ... or read the research. Ive attached it on a previous thread somewhere, i will rustle it up when i get a chance

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ft_critical
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby ft_critical » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:30 pm

Agree with DD; cramp is from higher intensity or longer distance. It is not just something that affects newbies either.

CKinnard
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:10 pm

newierider wrote:thanks for that. I had about half a litre before I went out. according to gps/strava, I climbed about 750metres over 101k.
also, as a beginner I didn't think averaging 25kph on a ride like that was slow? I know it's not fast but considering my weight on those climbs..
suffer store on strava was 125 "tough" :)
I should have added that 25kph average is not slow if you are in the burbs and catching a lot of traffic lights.
Of course, if you were unlucky enough to have a headwind for greater than 50% of the course, then that make things harder.
Your ride is what some refer to as a 0.75%er. (A 1% means you climbed 1000m over 100km.)
Nevertheless, I presume you didn't ride 100km around the burbs.
Anyway, an average of 25kph on a flatter course, such as sub 1%, and away from the burbs, is not particularly strenuous.

Getting back to cramps, the science cannot say with certainty what causes cramps. There's a bit of noise at the moment saying it's purely the state of the nerves being driven too hard. However, this is all very theoretical. No preventative intervention has come out of any of the more recent areas of interest in cramp studies.

What I can tell you from clinical and field experience, is that recurrent cramps stop when hydration and electrolyte intake are adequate, muscles are massaged heavily to stretch old scar tissue, diet is good, and bike fit sensible. I've personally seen cramp resolve time and time again with only the above variables addressed. The latest subjects were the Canadian Cycling team who were training on the gold coast in January, and several World Champion Australian elite riders with them.

But I never expect anyone to take my word for it, especially on an internet forum. Try it instead.

TheShadow
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby TheShadow » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:00 pm

I think you did pretty well with your fluid intake, if that's 4L you drank, not 4 bottles. That's almost 6 * 700mL bottles. At 1L an hour I think that is approaching the limit of what your stomach can absorb in that time. Electrolytes would help get the fluid (and electrolytes/Potassium) back into your muscles ASAP, faster than just water alone. With 100kg body weight to push up hills and just simply that much flesh holding the heat in...that is a serious risk of melt-down on even mild hills even on 'only' a 30C day. As you found, you did lose 2kg. I'm impressed it was only that much.

If that 100kg is mostly muscle, you might also need more carbs than you ate, in the drink preferably. You noticed yourself that a gel at one point made initial cramping go away. I'm not saying it'll turn you into a champion, but it helps. It might well have held the cramps off, especially if it was carbs in your water. That stuff gets to your muscles really fast. If you shop around online, it can be pretty much the same price as bananas these days :shock: - gram for gram of carbohydrate. If you're big and really cranking it out as best you can for 4 Hrs, with your size, that'll burn off quite a bit of muscle/liver glycogen. IMHO, you need more carb and fluid than some sparrow-like, elite 70kg rider.

To illustrate how borderline your muscle fluid levels may be and how close you may be to cramping as a result, the classic case of endurance cramping is actually consuming too much carbs without enough water. How could you do this? Drink straight, concentrated fruit juice, or, even worse, straight Coca Cola - without simultaneously drinking more water. I've done the latter after a hard 160kms with a short distance to go (that's all that was available to drink at that moment) and severe leg cramping followed minutes later. Your stomach needs water to absorb the carbs, and it'll pull that water from your muscles if you don't put enough water in your stomach with the carbs >> instant cramps. Electrolyte/Carb drinks make sure you put enough water in with the carbs.

newierider
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby newierider » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:15 pm

thanks shadow!
regarding water intake, it was 4x750ml bottles during the ride and around 600ml straight after. sorry, miscalculated that one but not far off..
i am 6ft and muscular and hold fat quite well, most people guess that I'm closers to 90kilos.

thanks again!

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Derny Driver
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:03 pm

newierider wrote: regarding water intake, it was 4x750ml bottles during the ride and around 600ml straight after.
Ok so young DD rode the last Goulburn to Sydney, 175km on 600ml of water and one gel.
After the race I gave him a sandwich and 375ml can of coke.
No cramps during or after the race.
HE TRAINED FOR THE DISTANCE

fat and old
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby fat and old » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:19 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
newierider wrote: regarding water intake, it was 4x750ml bottles during the ride and around 600ml straight after.
Ok so young DD rode the last Goulburn to Sydney, 175km on 600ml of water and one gel.
After the race I gave him a sandwich and 375ml can of coke.
No cramps during or after the race.
HE TRAINED FOR THE DISTANCE
Aye??

I ride home 17.5 k's....one tenth of that. On some hot days I stop at 11 to refill my bottle. And it's a man's bottle too....none of that poncy rapha epic 500ml for this fat bastard :wink: :lol: Ok, so I can and have gone 50 on a single bottle, but that's it. (always water, no other stuff. tried heaps and they all disagree with me).

How do you train to drink less?

Note.....I never cramp up, no matter what. I've fallen off the bike due to lack of food (or brains..take your pick), but never cramped.

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Derny Driver
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:02 pm

fat and old wrote: Aye??
.
He was, errrr, busy racing. Not ideal to drink so little, he had 2 bottles and I had 2 more at the feed station, but he just didnt drink.
I dont recommend it.
Nevertheless, the point is that dehydration does not cause cramps (in and of itself). The primary reason is OVERUSE of a muscle.
I agree with CKinnard's post in that cramping is a complex issue.

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g-boaf
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:31 am

fat and old wrote:How do you train to drink less?
You don't. You just ride more and get fitter over time.

I don't usually drink that much - but my 80-100km rides at 30-33kmh average is apparently the new junk kilometres according to all those who know on 'teh interwebz'. :lol: I can usually get by on 600ml bottle of water - perhaps a litre.

If I will cramp up, it's not normally during the ride, but sometime after it - and it will always be the adductor. Stretching can prevent it though.

I think CKinnard's advice is the best, cover all those bases and you should be alright.

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bychosis
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby bychosis » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:26 am

I pretty much always cramp in a longer event type ride. 4hrs on the road, or 6-7hours in the bush. Sometimes worse than others, but typically worse with less preparation. My training tends to be limited by time so the most I have done in preparation is around 30-40% of the time/distance in advance. Calves, quads, toes all cop it. At some points I've stretched out a quad cramp only to have the opposing muscles go so its a delicate balance. Best method to alleviate them is to keep moving slightly and ride through them.

Things that seem to help me are:
Magnesium supplements (usually for a week or so before)
Pre-hydrating (enough to pee clear for pretty much 24hrs in advance)
Staying hydrated with a mix of water and electrolyte - for me its electrolyte in a bottle and a camelbak of straight h2o.
Pacing properly, don't go out too hard.
Maintaining spin, not power. I can usually keep spinning at teh end of th events, but the minute I use some stomping power I'll cramp up.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Thoglette
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby Thoglette » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:15 pm

[quote="bychosis"Magnesium supplements (usually for a week or so before)[/quote]
I got talked into doing triathlon once (I know, the shame Image) and started having cramps in the pool. Always in tumble turns - either after pushing off (can't bend the legs) or as I went to push off (can't straighten the legs). I.E. high effort moments

In my case it was Mg - which (then) only one 'sports drink' contained.
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kenwstr
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby kenwstr » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:05 pm

Electrolytes and hydration have already been mentioned but they are not the full story. Increased effort in duration and/or intensity are also factors in cramping. The general advice I have come across is to keep the sum of increase to less than 10% per week. So if you want to go from 50 to 100 km without increasing intensity, that should take at least 8 weeks, something like this:
50
55
61
67
73
81
89
97
107

Probably should have at least one recovery week in there too. So I suspect this is the major cause of your cramps in this particular case. Stretch pretty soon after a ride and whenever you feel your tightening up, like before bed. This has prevented night cramps for me. Also, the inner quad is difficult to release once it does cramp. I have found applying pressure with thumb on the tight area just above the inner knee is like switching it off, must be a nerve there. Might take a while to find the exact right spot. You may like to look up cyclist stretches, there was an article in RideOn magazine recently but I would add a few for the back as well.


Regards,
Ken

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Duck!
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Re: cramping advice needed

Postby Duck! » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:08 pm

kenwstr wrote:I have found applying pressure with thumb on the tight area just above the inner knee is like switching it off, must be a nerve there. Might take a while to find the exact right spot. You may like to look up cyclist stretches, there was an article in RideOn magazine recently but I would add a few for the back as well.
Applying pressure to the cramping muscle is a recognised method of relieving the cramp. However a better method is to contract the opposing muscle. For example, if the calf is cramping, apply resistance to the toes/top of the foot and use your shin muscles to pull your foot against the resistance. Hold for five seconds, release then gently stretch the calf for five seconds. Repeat until the cramp is gone, usually only needs two or three goes. This works because muscles work in opposing pairs, one to flex the joint, the other to extend it. When one muscle is contracted, the natural response is to relax the opposing muscle, so working the muscle opposite the cramping one triggers it to release.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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