Plant Based Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:22 pm

Cronometer again, methionine/protein:
linseed - 2.05
English walnuts - 1.58
sweet potato - 1.91
potato - 1.60
pork steak - 2.69

It will be interesting to see what your reference has.

My further thought on this is that if the methionine ratio of sweet potato is higher than most other plant foods and the Okinawans had 68% of their diet as sweet potato, it may not be a reduction-ism worth worrying about. Maybe there is something in the plant foods that nullifies the effects of methionine in reducing longevity. It may not be just about levels. Similar to why nuts are better for you than oils and certain fruit juices have a lower insulin spike than expected.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:39 pm

Haven't been able to find the paper. Nevertheless, below is a link to an xlsx I made with all USDA food items, with columns for
methionine per 100g
total protein per 100g
meth / total protein as a %

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Z-n ... 1NPc1dWamM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Yes I wouldn't worry about the meth in sweet potato. Meth highlights the folly of focusing on one chemical in constructing a diet.
As I said earlier, the acid effect of a diet is also very important to many sub systems.
The research just hasn't been done to accurately weight various nutrient factors relative to others.
This is why I think the best that can be said currently is it's a good idea to eat a wide variety of plants, and minimize if not eliminate all animal products.
As I've indicated a number of times, as far as optimal health goes, diet is just one of several inputs...another being stress levels, and another activity.
These two are very likely to trump a life time of tweaks to a plant based diet.
One hypothesis I think has a lot of merit is excessive cognitive function compromising brain metabolic waste clearance! thus, meditation and not over analysing stuff might help us avoid dementia, memory deterioration, etc.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:50 pm

Thanks for posting the USDA database and the video.

There are some surprises among those results, especially at the high end.
The video gives a better reason to act on methionine reduction than basic longevity. Since my mother died of leukemia last year, I'm going to continue to assume that I have pre-detectable leukemia. Better than waiting until I'm diagnosed, which could be too late.

As for other factors, I can control my activity, but can't usually control the stress. Not easily in my situation anyway, so that should remain a constant for a number of years.

Barnard's book of "Power Foods For The Brain" goes into mental exercise a bit, saying the more you do mentally, the less chance you have of getting dementia type illnesses. Although I can't remember him mentioning meditation, he did say sleep was also a large factor in memory functionality.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:07 pm

I just found this more concise spreadsheet. The USDA's 5000+ items (mainly processed) underscores how much they accommodate food 'manufacturers'.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Z-n ... 3JUQ3dLeVk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This one clarifies the diff in methionine between legumes and grains.

Regarding brain health, yes I'm familiar with Barnard's take. I think he assumes a difference between stress and distress.
Brain health is also likely related to sleep quality. NREM sleep state is associated with more powerful glymphatic brain flushing.
Regarding your work stress, the external stuff might stay the same, but there's always the potential to evolve your response! ZA

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:53 am

CKinnard wrote:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Z-n ... 3JUQ3dLeVk
This one clarifies the diff in methionine between legumes and grains.
Thanks for that. Yes, much more concise.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:52 am

More from the Diet Thread:

http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/lets-not-sug ... ing-causes
Decades of science confirm that our waistlines would benefit from simply moving the animal products off our plates. Last year, my colleagues and I analyzed 15 major studies and concluded that vegetarian diets consistently lead to weight loss, even without calorie restriction or exercise. And long-term observational studies show that vegetarian—especially vegan—populations are the trimmest and healthiest on the planet.

I thought the video below is empowering to keep in mind. It's about accepting the costs of achieving the benefits desired.


When it comes to diet, it's true that most people have been deceived by the food industries into not knowing what a healthy diet really is. But it's becoming clearer to me that many people around me are now aware of what a healthy diet is. They just don't want the changes required to be healthier.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the will-power to make the changes is mostly needed for the first month or so. After that it becomes part of your routine or habit.



[/quote]
A video on obesogens, which are mainly found in animal products.
This adds evidence to this post on studies as to why avoiding animal products can reduce your body weight.





Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT)

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:22 pm

Always a relevant point that what you want comes with a trade off!
What amazes me clinically, is that most people have no idea how fluid appetite is. They just cannot imagine that they might feel just fine without eating insert your favorite junk food. IME, many food addictions decay within a month once one commits to abstaining. So there's this 4 week hump of unsatisfied craving one has to get through until one feels easy and light. Many won't even try and tough that out.
_____________

I wanted to expand my take on legumes and starches. It is not an either/or matter. Rather it is about ensuring adequate protein comes from legumes . Westerners under-consume legumes relative to their nutrient quality, and over-consume starchy carbs. They associate legumes with flatulence and as a poor source of protein. Flatulence settles when beans are prepared properly, and microbiome health is optimized.

Legumes are excellent protein, not carrying the dirty side effects of animal sourced protein:
- osteoporosis risk due to bone calcium leeching due to high acid effect
- cardiovascular disease risk associated with saturated fat and breakdown of the amino acid carnitine into TMAO
- alzheimers risk associated with excessive iron load and its toxic accumulation in the brain
- diabetes risk increases with beef in particular
- colon cancer risk increases
- higher methionine content = pro-inflammatory and pro-oxidant effect.
- higher acid effect leads to kidney and gall bladder stones/degeneration, joint and tendon degeneration
- higher systemic inflammatory effect

However let me qualify that legumes combined with starches give a more complete protein dose and vegans should aim for getting both. i.e. tofu and rice as is customary in Japan, beans and corn (Mexico), beans and rice , beans and pasta (Italy). It's a matter of proportion. Most westerners favor grain products (bread, pasta, crackers, etc) and consume too many Calories. So their priority is best advised to reduce starchy carbs and aim for Greger's daily 400g. This is more than most vegos I know consume. Most are taking in a higher load of starchy carbs. Legume and starch combining for complete protein has been panned at various times over the last 5o years. However the most recent literature is supportive, though the two sources don't have to be taken at the same meal.

relevant reference on complete vege protein combining
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3081312/

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:18 pm

More from Diet Thread:



I get between 90 and 100g of fibre a day. So it's not hard to do.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:31 pm

I don't worry about tracking fiber because if you eat heaps of fibrous, legumes, and starch, it's a given you'll get enough. It's still possible to undereat fruits, vege, and legumes, and get enough fiber.

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:39 pm

CKinnard wrote:So their priority is best advised to reduce starchy carbs and aim for Greger's daily 400g. This is more than most vegos I know consume. Most are taking in a higher load of starchy carbs. Legume and starch combining for complete protein has been panned at various times over the last 5o years. However the most recent literature is supportive, though the two sources don't have to be taken at the same meal.
I might try it gradually. I like beans, but I don't think they like me. Which could just be me. But I suppose if you never try stuff, you don't learn as much either. Time will tell.
To do that I'm going to have to clean up the rest of my act. I've put on about 0.6 kg over that last month and about 1cm around the waist. I'm still low fat at ~20g/d so it might be too much high density food like dates and rice cakes on some days. I could eat better. I'm also doing a bit more upper body, body weight exercises. So some of it may be muscle, but probably not much. :)

To me it shows food needs to be plant based, low fat and low density to work well.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:35 pm

Nobody, yes the flatulence thing can take a few months to settle down, but it will.

A meal I've enjoyed since my teens when I went ovolactovego is vegetarian chilli, in various iterations over the decades. Here's an example that I am having tonight with a bowl of salad (but made from red kidney beans and a can of corn, tumeric, more cumin and chilli...I sometimes add bulgur wheat, brown rice, or similar to thicken it). Kids and omnivores really like this btw.
http://www.taste.com.au/recipes/5923/vegetarian+chilli

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:37 pm

Sorry, I meant beans gain weight for me. I'm over the flatulence thing mostly. I mainly get it if I eat too much in a single meal. I use it as an indicator of overeating. So I think I'm veg adapted. :lol:

Thanks for the recipe. It looks interesting, but I'm usually content to eat beans straight out of a can, cold. That's why I'll probably never leave a WFV diet. I don't have a passion for taste, which is an advantage. Not that you can't make WFV tasty, but well prepared dishes and lots of variety tends to add weight.

Feeling stronger on the bike since I've gained a bit of weight. Maybe I was a little bit too light for maximum performance. It's a hard thing to gauge.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

More form the Diet Thread:

http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/eat-your-way ... ghts-sleep



https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl ... ycemic.htm

I thought the bit on vegans having one third less cancer risk than meat eaters was interesting.
https://youtu.be/_hB_swKX00o?t=43s


https://youtu.be/WGXjVRk-0-A?t=17m45s
(Part of interest 17:45 to 26:20)
Getting back to the differences of beliefs between plant based authors. Above is McDougall's reasoning as to why a high nutrient diet isn't a good idea. One of his reasons - which I believe Greger has shown evidence to be contrary before - is if artificial vitamins are dangerous, then too much in natural foods could be too. But his other reasoning about increasing protein & fat just to get more vitamins & minerals, and also how RDIs have been influenced by industry, still appear to be valid.
So to be safe, I try to get the WHO RDIs - or at least get close to them - without sacrificing my macros or Cal density too much.



Useful explanation of why some people get fat, while others don't and why it's almost all about the food.


http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-b ... ductivity/

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/foods-i ... happiness/

I'm not convinced raw = happiness considering the number that give it up after some time.


More reasons to avoid oil than I first thought. I also thought the bit on absorbing oil through the skin was interesting.


http://www.cornell.edu/video/playlist/t ... nd-disease

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/longevity/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone
https://www.bluezones.com/

Longevity study
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article ... id=1710093

Finished copying stuff I found interesting from the Diet Thread.
I generally omitted information that wasn't really focused on plant based or was overly critical of other diets.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:39 am

My diet is getting simpler as I age. The majority of the time I have a simple salad +/- pita bread for lunch, made of 6-10 fibrous carbs with legumes. In the last month, I've recommitted to eating more cleanly, and dinner is similar salad or steam vege with legumes and starch (sweet potato,rice,barley,buckwheat, quinoa )....and fish 1-2x/week (though not for the last 2 weeks). Breakfast for the last few weeks has been fruit, unprocessed or as a green smoothie. I am aiming for 100% plant based within a month (and no alcohol), and stay committed to it for the rest of the year. The reason for this is that the literature definitely shows an advantage, I inform people professionally of this advantage, and many of my most respected friends eat this way. I was speaking with a very successful American friend a few weeks ago, and he was surprised I am eating meat at all. We have been friends since our late teens when I was strict ovolactovego. He's been ovolactovego since 18, and strict vegan for the last 6 years. He's 59yo and still works 40+hours a week, much of it on his feet, and has no intentions of retiring although he is wealthy enough not to have to work at all.

Regarding some of the other points you bring up, like McDougall's caution of eating too nutrient densely, I find often in diet debates a lack of respect for pathophysiological states and the ageing process. i.e.

- the majority of humans do not have perfect physiology, even when they make the best lifestyle choices. we all have kinks in our armor. we all have genetic flaws. mine is a poor uric acid clearance by the kidneys and a GIT easily disturbed by stress. Indeed, it is difficult to avoid stress so many people will not have optimal GIT and endocrine function even when eating an optimized diet.
- as one ages, their digestion and absorption weakens. alpha amylase in the mouth, HCl in the stomach, pancreatic lipase, bile production, gut motility, gut mucus production by goblet cells....all these things degenerate along with other body functions and tissue. As one becomes less efficient at digesting and absorbing nutrients, it makes sense to eat a higher nutrient dense diet. Further it makes sense to process the food to aid digestion (eat more cooked food rather than raw). Admittedly, some people may get to 75yo before they notice they do not tolerate raw food as well.

I have respected most of McDougall's ideas through my adult life. Bought one of his books in 1983 and it was the one I lent out to those looking at vegetarianism. However, some of his ideas I now don't agree with. I think he is very wrong to say everyone will attain ideal bodyweight following his plan which involves eating to satisfaction. I know way too many healthy eating vegetarians who are overweight. And the reason I am a big fan of a high fibrous carb intake is because it is the best way to avoid overeating more energy dense foods like starches which is ubiquitous amongst vegetarians and omnivores. McDougall is also wrong about denovo lipogenesis from excess carbohydrate consumption. He has written articles that state excess carbs are not readily converted to fat for which he quotes old studies. He has not stayed abreast of more recent literature that contradict this. I commend him for his lifetime of work moving people towards healthier eating, but I don't consider him to be wise, humble, and intellectually robust. He is too locked in to a paradigm he has developed over a life time, namely that a starch based diet is superior because it is what has always sustained mankind in modern history.

I do respect him also for his support of fasting. True North Health is America's most professionally run fasting center. It's been used by McDougall, Neal Barnard, and Caldwell Esselstyn for decades. The reason I am more respectful of 'some' chiropractors is because of ones like Allan Goldhammer who runs the center. The guy is very professional and in line with the best medical science.

http://www.healthpromoting.com/
http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning ... uenorth-tv




some amazing stories about veganism and fasting.
BTW, Christine in the lower video is a dentist. Very grounded and articulate. Her story continues on more videos on utube.
It's an inspiring story, and one I am familiar with as I have recommended several patients with acquired brain injuries go on extended fasts who actuallly did, and had equally profound resolution of chronic symptoms. It's not a cure all though.






Nobody, someone you might enjoy web cruising is Chef AJ. She is a good mate of John McDougall and relies heavily on Calorie density in her lectures.
http://chefajwebsite.com/index.html
http://www.healthytasteonline.com/chef- ... asses.html
https://youtu.be/v9zWKufDSQg

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:30 am

CKinnard wrote:I am aiming for 100% plant based within a month (and no alcohol), and stay committed to it for the rest of the year. The reason for this is that the literature definitely shows an advantage, I inform people professionally of this advantage, and many of my most respected friends eat this way. I was speaking with a very successful American friend a few weeks ago, and he was surprised I am eating meat at all. We have been friends since our late teens when I was strict ovolactovego. He's been ovolactovego since 18, and strict vegan for the last 6 years. He's 59yo and still works 40+hours a week, much of it on his feet, and has no intentions of retiring although he is wealthy enough not to have to work at all.
Good for you. :)
As you know, although the larger observational studies say a bit of fish/meat is slightly better, the collective smaller studies have pointed to totally vegan as the ideal.
The reason for the noise in the observational studies might be because of lack of knowledge with the vegans being studied. Which is not surprising considering many do it for animal rights or religious reasons. This could lead to:
- Lack of B12
- Lack of essential fatty acids in some cases.
- Overly processed food selection (the old "coke and chips are vegan").
- Over consumption of oils and fats, with many still believing that oils (eg olive oil) and some fats are health promoting. We know a small amount of nuts and seeds can be health promoting, but larger amounts don't usually add anything to a very healthy diet.
- Other factors like, exercise, stress, sense of purpose, etc.
CKinnard wrote:Regarding some of the other points you bring up, like McDougall's caution of eating too nutrient densely, I find often in diet debates a lack of respect for pathophysiological states and the ageing process. i.e...
Fair enough. I'm not a big fan of raw. I'm not a fan of either extreme of the nutrient density philosophy. Other than the basic stuff like B12, PUFA and (maybe) selenium, I'll wait until I have deficiency symptoms or a blood test result problem/trend before worrying.
CKinnard wrote:I have respected most of McDougall's ideas through my adult life. Bought one of his books in 1983 and it was the one I lent out to those looking at vegetarianism. However, some of his ideas I now don't agree with. I think he is very wrong to say everyone will attain ideal bodyweight following his plan which involves eating to satisfaction. I know way too many healthy eating vegetarians who are overweight. And the reason I am a big fan of a high fibrous carb intake is because it is the best way to avoid overeating more energy dense foods like starches which is ubiquitous amongst vegetarians and omnivores.
How much exercise are they doing? Sure, diet and exercise independently may not work, but both together usually make a significant difference. I've heard it said it's an D80:E20 relationship, but it depends on the individual. Some may really need a significant exercise component.

As you would know, there are other questions that can be asked like:
- Are they vegan? I would assume so if you say they are healthy vegetarians. If not, there are many variables in animal products that can cause weight gain.
If vegan:
- How much fat are they eating? As I've found, it doesn't take much to add weight.
- What is their average calorie density of their food?
- How many liquid calories are they taking in daily?
- Any overly processed foods?
- Are they really accurately tracking what they are eating and drinking?

I'd argue that unless all the diet attributes above and exercise are addressed, being a healthy eating vegetarian doesn't mean too much. Considering the amount of time and effort I put into addressing these things, I doubt most of them are doing all of it. It comes down to that old saying of "you get what you pay for". Not saying there aren't exceptions, but there wouldn't be too many once you start to analyze everything above for each individual.

Having said that I agree that fibrous veg is a good way to calorie intake reduce/restrict.

Speaking of diet, I've been trying more beans. I'm currently 1kg over what I started at the beginning of the year so far. I'll give it another 1kg maximum gain before I pull the pin.
CKinnard wrote:McDougall is also wrong about denovo lipogenesis from excess carbohydrate consumption...
Yes, it's proven it can take place and significantly in some deliberate overfeeding cases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11722954
But excess carb consumption is still preferable to excess fat consumption, which is the point once the exaggeration is removed.
CKinnard wrote:I do respect him also for his support of fasting...
Thanks for posting. I've seen the video before, but it's a good reminder of how much damage food could be doing to individuals that are susceptible.
CKinnard wrote:Nobody, someone you might enjoy web cruising is Chef AJ...
Thanks. I recently saw AJ's life story in respect to diet and weight on McDougall's YouTube channel.

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:15 pm

It appears variety in fruit and veg is important.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/1-speci ... egetables/

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:58 pm

yep, varied plant intake is da bomb.

I dont mind AJ's slant. She has 3 secrets for superior weight loss
- don't process your food (don't do smoothies). chewing the food and swallowing and having it sit in your stomach for a while slows down how many Calories you need to feel full.
- smash the veges, even for brekky. totally agree with this so as to fill up on low energy density foods first.
- eat potatoes. if you are going to do starch, potties are the least energy dense, and are quite filling.

She inspired me to go out last night and buy a pressure cooker. She did a good job of selling how quick they are. I made this
http://foodytv.com/healthyliving-ep-1/
which isn't too bad. But by the time the pressure cooker gets up to the right heat then cooks for the required 7 minutes, it would have been quicker to stick the sweet potato in the microwave, then add it to a saucepan to cook with other ingredients.

I used to love vegetarian chilli when a vego in my 20s, but tbh would be just as happy with a can of legumes over steamed vege now.
I get a lot of young people asking for a vegan meal plan....so I want to get together a dozen cheap and nutritious staple meals and build a 2 week meal plan for them. On the short list so far is a vego chilli, italian minestrone, vegan pizza, vegan potato bake, red lentil dahl, vegan rissoles. I'd love to get more SE Asian dishes but they all heavy on the salt.


Alzheimer's, another good reason to go PBWF


PARROT123
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby PARROT123 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:54 pm

Just out of curiosity what brand pressure cooker did you buy? the one in the video not yet available in oz.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:53 pm

Hi Parrot. I web researched the cheaper ones at the Good Guys for 30 minutes...and bought the Kambrook KPR620...cost $93. The reviews are satisfactory. The 600 had an issue i think but Kambrook were quick to correct and make good.

I've never used one before and don't tend to do a lot of cooking (only cook for 1-2 people mostly), so I went cheap. Maybe some of the more expensive ones get up to desired heat quicker, but this one seemed to take at least 7 minutes before it started making steam noises and seal the lid.

I'll probably just use it once every 2-3 weeks to make a big batch of rice and a legume based stew, curry or chilli. These things keep really well in teh freezer and are great for lunch reheated with salad or at dinner with steamed vege. At lunch today I had a salad with a microwaved potato with chilli poured over the top. There was probably 400 Cals in that lunch, and I rode 90km (~1400 Cals), but lunch filled me nicely.

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:10 pm

CKinnard wrote:I dont mind AJ's slant. She has 3 secrets for superior weight loss
- don't process your food (don't do smoothies). chewing the food and swallowing and having it sit in your stomach for a while slows down how many Calories you need to feel full.
- smash the veges, even for brekky. totally agree with this so as to fill up on low energy density foods first.
- eat potatoes. if you are going to do starch, potties are the least energy dense, and are quite filling.
Esselstyn also recommends avoiding smoothies.
Esselstyn prefers those with heart disease to have oats for breakfast. Something about the oats them help with atherosclerosis... Having said that, veg for brekky sounds like a good idea if you can stomach it. I have oats, linseed and canned fruit in one bowl and beans in another. Then finish with bananas if I'm still hungry.
Sweet potatoes are slightly better than potatoes for both lower caloric density (67 to 82 non-fibre Cal) and nutrient density.

Regarding Barnard's Alzheimer's disease presentation. I read the book on it, which really highlighted to me the importance of avoiding iron, copper and saturated fat. Especially considering that I've got an iron loading problem.

As for speed of cooking, another way to speed things up is to boil the water in a fast kettle before adding it to the pot/cooker.

Below is some info on dental health with plant based diets.



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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby elfoam » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:27 am

Don't know if I should get involved here because Ive properly tried all alternative diets and had an incurable condition most of my life. But my experience and learning can be simplified. Grains are word removed up, fructose absolutely inflames the body. Heated starches are useless. Pressure cookers are good, organ meat is good, insects are good. Dairy is dodgy (Goat is OK). Vegetables are nearly always great. Being in ketosis via fasting or via low carb is very important once in a while, over Winter even. Plant based diets are great providing you dont eat grains and limited fruit but essentially thats an impossible diet in the current world. Fruits strip the enamel off your teeth faster than it grows back even grain free, minor problem compared to the ill effects of fructose on kidneys and friends though. Also lifespan has very little to do with diet, you are born that way or not.

CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:45 am

elfoam wrote:Don't know if I should get involved.
Thanks for dropping in. Feel free to say whatever you want, but don't expect anyone here to debate the pros and cons of plant based diets.
That's been done to death elsewhere on this forum.

Speaking for myself, my diet beliefs are in accord with the scientific consensus, which 40 years of personal experimentation and 15 years of clinical experience underwrite.....so others' unqualified anecdote and evolutionary rooted hypothesizing will be wasted on me.

If you want to elaborate your experience with vegan or PBWF diets, I'd be interested. include duration on the diet, breakdown of what you ate, what terminated your experiment with such diets.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:57 pm

Nobody wrote:Esselstyn also recommends avoiding smoothies.
Esselstyn prefers those with heart disease to have oats for breakfast. Something about the oats them help with atherosclerosis... Having said that, veg for brekky sounds like a good idea if you can stomach it. I have oats, linseed and canned fruit in one bowl and beans in another. Then finish with bananas if I'm still hungry.
Sweet potatoes are slightly better than potatoes for both lower caloric density (67 to 82 non-fibre Cal) and nutrient density.

Regarding Barnard's Alzheimer's disease presentation. I read the book on it, which really highlighted to me the importance of avoiding iron, copper and saturated fat. Especially considering that I've got an iron loading problem.

As for speed of cooking, another way to speed things up is to boil the water in a fast kettle before adding it to the pot/cooker.
A few web pages give Esselstyn's brekky recipe thus:
rolled oats, apple juice, berries, banana, cinnamon. all into a bowl and into the microwave til oats are done.
Too much simple sugar imho with that apple juice. Otherwise it seems good.
I do oats, fruit, flax seed, in soy milk but more so during the winter. Currently, I am doing a large soy flat white coffee and a piece of fruit mid morning. I don't get hungry enough to warrant a 2nd bowl with beans.

Sweet potatoes are also significantly better on the glycemic index.

And yes, I always add boiling water to whatever I am cooking.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:59 pm

CKinnard wrote:A few web pages give Esselstyn's brekky recipe thus:
rolled oats, apple juice, berries, banana, cinnamon. all into a bowl and into the microwave til oats are done.
Too much simple sugar imho with that apple juice. Otherwise it seems good.
From his book under "The Esselstyn Breakfast" it says:
Esselstyn wrote:Instead of milk, use oat, almond, or nonfat soy milk. Apple juice, cider and orange or grapefruit juice (include the sections) are also delicious.
Which is the same, but puts into context. So it reads like he primarily promotes substitute milks, but has no problem with the juices. I agree though, I wouldn't be using juices if I could avid it.
CKinnard wrote:I do oats, fruit, flax seed, in soy milk but more so during the winter. Currently, I am doing a large soy flat white coffee and a piece of fruit mid morning. I don't get hungry enough to warrant a 2nd bowl with beans.
I used to use rice milk for breakfast, but ditched it over a year ago in favor of just water. The milks are tasty, but they are just another processed food often with additives like oil. From what I've read, we don't need the added calcium either. You know about these milks, but I'm explaining it for others who might wonder why I don't use them.

The above makes me wonder what the acceptable percentage level for added oils is. McDougall was asked this question and said to the level you find naturally in rice, so 0.7%.
How accurate do the nutritional panels need to be by law? The Turkish dates I occasionally eat are listed as 99% dates in the ingredients, but then only 0.5g of fat/100g in the nutrition panel. So is it 1% or 0.5% oil? Some sultanas I've tried are listed as 2% fat, but feel more than that.

Still believe I'm still putting on visceral fat due to the extra beans. I'll test again in the morning. I'll keep it going for at least a few more days at higher intake (currently more than double my normal intake at 250g/d) but I'd say I'll be ditching the extra beans, long term. I'm not overly worried about extra weight, but increasing WHtR is a greater problem. Time will tell...

I'm reading more of "How Not To Die" and bought some blueberries today. A habit I hope to continue.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:43 pm

yep, I agree processed anything is better got rid of, including substitute milks.
we really only need water once we're off mother's milk. herb teas are ok too, and a good case can be made for home made soup as one ages and their digestion weakens, or when sick.
we definitely don't need calcium supplements if smashing the fibrous carbs.

as for dates, 0.1 g fat/100g fresh dates according to Australian nutrition panel calculator.
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/industr ... ction.aspx

not sure on the accuracy thing. but it's bound to be in the terms and conditions you agree to to use the calculator.

I agree berries are brilliant, based on what the science says. but I am reflecting on seasonality more so these days. and latitude! i.e. probably better choices of fruit to eat when living in Thailand.
anyway, I buy frozen berries from Aldi. Used to use them in green smoothies. but am eating fruit unprocessed these days.

I tend to agree 390g of beans every day is pretty full on. Today I didn't eat any, as I've been doing one of two vego chillis for a solid week, and have tired of them. It was coffee, fruit in the morning, and salad with brown rice for lunch. Dinner was messing around with vegan pancakes - made with rice and corn flour, egg substitute, soy milk, vanilla essence, salt, and a llittle raw sugar. I must admit they turned out pretty good. I haven't messed with anything like that for yonks, but they are a versatile thing to be able to add a savory or sweet filling to. BUTTTTT....after eating pretty clean for a month, they felt heavy and not the healthiest food choice (very refined carb). Years ago I used to throw rolled oats into a blender dry....then use it in place of flour for pancakes. It turns out really good, and has a much coarser less refined consistency than flour.

Anyway, have lost 4kg in the last 4 weeks, and feel like I've broken sweet and alcohol and overfeeding cravings.

elfoam
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby elfoam » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:31 pm

CKinnard wrote:
elfoam wrote:Don't know if I should get involved.
Thanks for dropping in. Feel free to say whatever you want, but don't expect anyone here to debate the pros and cons of plant based diets.
That's been done to death elsewhere on this forum.

Speaking for myself, my diet beliefs are in accord with the scientific consensus, which 40 years of personal experimentation and 15 years of clinical experience underwrite.....so others' unqualified anecdote and evolutionary rooted hypothesizing will be wasted on me.

If you want to elaborate your experience with vegan or PBWF diets, I'd be interested. include duration on the diet, breakdown of what you ate, what terminated your experiment with such diets.
Sure mate, I eased into eating fully plant based in 1991 after 5 years lacto ovo veg, finished up in 2012. My vegan diet of 21 years was absolutely standard nothing fancy, I did a few months here and there of fruitarian and raw the usual experiments but most it was typical salads, fruits, dahl, nuts, grains (I ate bread and his friends).. Same as every other Vegan. I never drank, smoked, I lifted weights and I ran. My heart rate was always 48-52 bpm, blood pressure was never over 105/65. It sounds fine but I never enjoyed good health, I had good natural fitness and held the fitness without doing much sure. However right from the first weeks of being vegan I started to develop sores on my back, put it down to acne. My skin went to crap over the following years, I used to be mystified why some other vegans were glowing with health and I was so beaten up. But you know I was stubborn so I persisted with it, tried to eat better and betrer but by the late 90s I started having pretty constant pretty bad stomach pain to the point of waking up in the night in sweats and pain not knowing I was even human. I had this maddening itching by the mid 2000s that almost completely ruined my sleep and one day came out with blisters every, few days after that I awoke to find a rather large lump in my neck which happily grew to tennis ball size over the following couple years. Worrying to say the least.. I was properly sick by then and was only barely able to walk the 2km to see a doctor for the first time in 20 years. Cue seven years of being poked prodded, drilled and scanned by just about everything, blood tested every 2 weeks (Ive had up to 12 vials taken in a visit) and I finally had a diagnosis. Its a very very rare diease that I somehow managed to select all the right buttons to get, incurable but survivable with drugs. So how did I get there?. Impossible to say for sure but unknown to me I apparently had celiac disease for the entire time which got alot worse once I switched to vegan and increased consumption of wheat and other hard on the gut grains and legumes. This has caused immune system disfunction and here I am..

You can say well that was just genetically unlucky.. But half the white population of Australia carry those same genes and imho we just arent tollerant of a diet with any grains. Back in those days we didnt know high fat diets could be done safely or that you could practically fuel youself with cocconut oil. I could possibly be vegan now grain free, I fact in my last year vegan thats what I did but it was tough and I droped from 62kg to 55kg. These days im not absolutely ripped like I was but Im 66kg, my skin has healed and my gut is OK, itll never be perfect, I have no detectable malformed cells in my bloods where before I was close to being in serious !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!, my kidneys have improved to near normal function. I still have really whacky immune cell counts that a miles out of normal range but thats incurable now, although they have improved 20 fold (Lets say the drugs work). I’m not super fit now but im older and healthier than Ive been since I was 20. These days I eat very little sugars which is hard for me as during my vegan years I planted a garden of some 400 fruit and nut trees, now I leave it all to the birds and possums. I eat a very high fat diet, moderate protiens from meat and Ill eat any very low carb vegetables. I go into and out of a ketogenic state depending on when I feel up to it or when I feel like I need some healing Ill drop into ketosis for a couple of weeks or a few months. For me this is the only way I can eat now. I do know a lot of vegans and like I was they were and mostly still are resistant to accept reality, many of them have developed mental health issues, some still have good health but generally in the very long term even those from a race more suited to the diet they arent doing that great. Might be great if you want to loose weight after living a processed life but its just as fast to loose on a high fat diet in ketosis. When Im eating carbs my entire body becomes stiffer, pinching my skin hurts and I get generally dodgy skin quite quickly, just eating fruit will do it. Yes you can do a vegan version of a high fat diet but man..Unless you have endless cash and slaves its going to be a tough gig. Most of my family live beyond 90, several have gone past 100 just eating nothing special, I really didnt need to be so silly with diets. Its going to be some miricle if I reach old age but at least now Im on a more sustainable patch health wise.

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