Do you have a set of scales that measure body water %, body fat %, visceral fat %, etc If you don't you are simply guessing that it is fat, when it could be body water. And the only way to be positively sure is to get a DEXA scan.Nobody wrote:
Still believe I'm still putting on visceral fat due to the extra beans. I'll test again in the morning. I'll keep it going for at least a few more days at higher intake (currently more than double my normal intake at 250g/d) but I'd say I'll be ditching the extra beans, long term. I'm not overly worried about extra weight, but increasing WHtR is a greater problem. Time will tell...
Plant Based Diet Thread
The information / discussion in the Cycling Health Forum is not qualified medical advice. Please consult your doctor.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Baalzamon » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:45 am
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:21 am
Yeah, Aldi is where I got my frozen blueberries from.CKinnard wrote:...anyway, I buy frozen berries from Aldi. Used to use them in green smoothies. but am eating fruit unprocessed these days.
From memory I think McDougall said a cup a day (164g) and PCRM says about the same. My anecdote so far is I feel stronger on the bike on the flats. Hill climbing seems as hard as before. In general I feel more tired at times during the day though. My weight has increased in the last few weeks, but not a lot, about 0.5kg to approx. 64kg. More worrying is my waist has increased about 1cm to 75.5cm or WHtR 0.436. Not a trend I want to continue. So after the current large cooked batch of beans is finished, I'm going to reduce it again. Like nuts, I've proven to myself again that more beans doesn't work well for me. However I may have weaker kidneys and liver due to the iron loading problems. Like you've said before, we've all have our individual problems. Maybe I'm in the minority on this.CKinnard wrote:I tend to agree 390g of beans every day is pretty full on.
I know Greger has our best interests at heart, but I don't think that all the current nutritional science can be trusted (mainly due to industry funding and manipulation). McDougall and Jeff Novick are more skeptical.
Good one.CKinnard wrote:Anyway, have lost 4kg in the last 4 weeks, and feel like I've broken sweet and alcohol and overfeeding cravings.
My big weaknesses are dried fruit and general overeating. But like you I can beat the sweet if I put my mind to it, which I've had to do during this beans experiment.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:21 pm
Oh well that's me out then.....CKinnard wrote:.....so others' unqualified anecdote and evolutionary rooted hypothesizing will be wasted on me.
Shuffles off to sit in the corner.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:41 pm
interesting story elfoam. thanks for spending the time to relay.elfoam wrote: Sure mate, .
I've also had a sensitive gut which I first noticed when I left school. I've never had biopsies or advanced bloods for coeliacs, crohns etc but have gone gluten free with no significant change.
My ex also had a long history of gut issues. It took her 25 years of suffering, then nearly dying from blood loss, before the doctors cottoned onto what it was....by then she needed emergency large intestine surgery to remove heavily scarred wall tissue. Her management drove home to me how ill informed GPs and some specialists are. All of the ones who missed narrowing the diagnosis should have been able to refine it with a comprehensive algorithm. Her journey is the reason I think people should expect more from GPs and if one feels they are being treated casually, don't hesitate to get a 2nd opinion. And read up yourself so you can at least ask smarter questions of your GP.
Your symptoms and history certainly sound like a severe case of coeliacs to me. I'm amazed at the severity of your skin reaction as soon as you went vegan. I can only take it you must have really ramped up the grains, but not the fibrous carbs. Can you elaborate.
You mentioned that you have another disease on top of coeliacs.
You also mention half the popn have genes for coeliacs. Interestingly, 5% of coeliacs don't have either of the genes that are supposed to make it a purely genetic disease. And 30% of the population who have either gene don't have coeliacs. So that means the overwhelming majority of people with the genes don't get the diseae!
In my clinical experience, a significant life or health stressor triggers coeliacs, including surgery, marijuana use, binge drinking, viral infection of any type but especially STIs and meningitis.
And the rate of coeliacs has gone up alarmingly in the last 30 years, well beyond any simplistic explanation based on refined medical definitions. This is why I am suspicious of any medical intervention that messes with the immune system, including vaccinations. We just don't know enough about their long term effects.
I think a lot of diet controversy stems from the fact that many people have compromised health, and seek a dietary solution. But proponents of various diets are not adequately informed on pathology states, and how various foods may exacerbate a pre-existing disease. And that works in reverse too. Even though you have had a bad run with legume and gluten starch, that doesn't mean it is an issue for all. What I find interesting about your hx is you didn't have trouble with gluten until you went vegan. Surely you were eating gluten before you went vegan. That makes me wonder why you went vegan and whether there was some significant stress you went through at the time (to trigger coeliacs). I had more trouble with bowel symptoms when I went back to university while still suffering with chronic fatigue. It was stress knocking my gut around. I had not changed my diet.
I have also seen people so sick that eating anything irritates their gut. They need to fast and be put on high doses of prednisone, then gradually have IV feeds. Should their experience be used in considering national dietary guidelines????
You mention many of your old vegan friends have mental health issues now. I think it is common that people with vague feelings of unwellness experiment with diet more. Therefore, it is likely within vegan popn, there are many who have health conditions that have not been diagnosed correctly or science just not understand. However, I also know a lot of vegans who don't eat a balanced diet. They eat heaps of rubbish refined carbs, never enough wholesome home cooked meals, never enough fibrous carbs and fruit....and they have failed to supplement with B12. why so? well there's a lot of young and idealistic people attracted to veganism purely because they don't want to see animals hurt. And they never take the nutrition side of veganism seriously.
Re ketosis, I don't have an issue with it. In fact, I'm starting a prolonged water fast in a few weeks.....to rest my gut, and flush out rubbish from joints, tendons, brain, etc. Have you ever fasted?
Your experience highlights to my mind that diet is only one dimension of health. Others include healthy immune systems and avoiding infections and lifestyle choices that mess with the immune system. Science just does not know enough about the immune system and what can throw it off balance.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:43 pm
warthog1 wrote:Oh well that's me out then.....CKinnard wrote:.....so others' unqualified anecdote and evolutionary rooted hypothesizing will be wasted on me.
Shuffles off to sit in the corner.
qualify your anecdotes wartie, and they won't be wasted on moi.
I just don't need to read yet another vegan bashing story such as Ido Portal or Joe Rogan would spew.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:52 pm
I was posting them in support of a WFPB diet but really only contributing 'cause a few other contributors were getting up my nose.CKinnard wrote:warthog1 wrote:Oh well that's me out then.....CKinnard wrote:.....so others' unqualified anecdote and evolutionary rooted hypothesizing will be wasted on me.
Shuffles off to sit in the corner.
qualify your anecdotes wartie, and they won't be wasted on moi.
I just don't need to read yet another vegan bashing story such as Ido Portal or Joe Rogan would spew.
Let's face it, I don't have much of worth to add but I enjoy reading about what I should be eating more of
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:09 pm
yep, I gathered you have an interest in improving your diet. I am not perfect or committed PBWF recently, but am moving that way. I was doing too much clinic last year and went right off the rails. and put on way too much weight. ANyway, it was a defining time in my life and set me up not to compromise over the next 15 years of clinic. It made me realize stress messes with my insulin and glucose too much, and I need to really prioritize a healthier lifestyle over everything else. So in a few weeks, I'm off to a health retreat for intensive cleansing! May give the occasional report from there. It will be interesting. I've never fasted beyond 4 days, but this is going to be wayyyy longer, but will be determined by daily blood tests. so don't go too far away. things are going to get interesting!warthog1 wrote:
I was posting them in support of a WFPB diet but really only contributing 'cause a few other contributors were getting up my nose.
Let's face it, I don't have much of worth to add but I enjoy reading about what I should be eating more of
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:14 pm
I get away with a bit through exercise, and it's far better than the average 'Strayan.
Could cut back on processed foods like breads and cereals, oils etc
I look forward to reading how you go.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Baalzamon » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:36 pm
You "should" be in ketosis when fasted. Look up Jimmy Moore, he did a 30 day fast back in January and has got daily videos of it.CKinnard wrote:
Re ketosis, I don't have an issue with it. In fact, I'm starting a prolonged water fast in a few weeks.....to rest my gut, and flush out rubbish from joints, tendons, brain, etc. Have you ever fasted?
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby elfoam » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:59 am
My wife has generally been very hardy and never sick but these days shes even starting to get upset from gluten. Shes not Australian and blames our dodgy bread..
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:00 am
Have you tried retrograded potato?elfoam wrote:... Ive been in for a few weeks. Im planing on moderating it with raw potato.. Long story but just an experiment.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:54 am
I've got nothing against the natural ketosis one enters when fasting. It's a given to me that there is a healing effect for most. When you consider that the greater percentage of basal metabolic rate is to do with GUT function and body household duties, it's apparent the body expends an enormous amount of energy just dealing with getting energy to cells and metabolic waste away. Whatever tissue repair is trying to happen will take a backseat to getting energy in and waste out. To let the body rest adequately by fasting and resting for a prolonged period, should be trialed by everyone with chronic disease. Very few people rest properly these days, even on holidays, sensory stimulation persists or is elevated. In the west with our focus on doing stuff and keeping our minds entertained, we keep our nervous system out of rest mode and in hyperstimulation. Prolonged fasting enforces quality rest and shutting down of interaction with the external world.
As I said earlier, a lot of junk accumulates in the body over time, even on the healthiest diet. Salts and metabolic waste settle out of solution in tendons, joints, and even the brain. Scar tissue from soft tissue tears, adhesions, arthritic bony remodeling, joint stiffness, poor revascularization of old trauma....all these things can be reversed to some degree with fasting. Inflammatory states settle profoundly, GUT issues settle and the gut given time to heal. All these things are being documented in the integrative medicine journals more and more
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684131/
....but this stuff is still not known well by conventional medicos.
It certainly seems like you have an agitated immune system elfoam. As I said, this is why I think we need to tread more wearily with vaccinations. There's just so much we don't know about the long term kindling effects caused by vaccination. And the stance currently taken by public health authorities towards compulsory vaccination are not underwritten by science. There just isn't the scientific understanding of the immune system to evaluate the risks adequately. My view is universal hygiene measures and healthy diet and bodyweight should be promoted much more aggressively until vaccination risks are understood (and the growing rate of autoimmune disease), and the vax schedule should be wound back to the most critical shots. Indeed, Veterinary science vax schedules have been wound back in recent years due to the growing number of adverse vax events.
On the other hand, poor lifestyle choices, lives lived out of balance, etc etc, all this needs to be addressed. Westerners stay overstimulated for most of their lives now, compared to our ancestors. television, internet, sedentary lifestyles, the noise and stimulation of urban environs....in my experience, an agitated overstimulated mind represents an agitated overstimulated immune system. And if one is experiencing any form of inflammation in the body, then a period of mind and body rest is warranted.
BTW, I do accept that the wheat used in most breads these days is very different to that of 50+ years ago. I know many people who react badly to it, and when they try a less manipulated bread sold by a specialist baker, they don't have anywhere near the same reaction.
This interview with John McDougall's doctor son is worth a skim to see how PBWF is making inroads in US health insurance and integrative health centers.
Below is an interview by John McDougall of Nathan Pritikin. This is the first time I've seen him on video, and I find him even more impressive than the guy I imagined. He was a courageous and intelligent methodical thinker to have attempted what he did. He was amongst the first to turn doctors onto the benefits of diet, en masse. Prior to his efforts, vegetarian low fat eating was very fringe, restricted to odd vegetarian societies and Indian religious folk.
People younger than me won't have much of an idea about Nathan, but during the 70s, he was at the forefront of healthy nutrition in the western world. His book was highly influential in turning me onto an ovolactovegetarian diet with minimum eggs and dairy, in addition to various Yogi's I had investigated. Many athletes especially long distance runners followed his recommendations.
Another guy I have an instinctive resonance with is Dr Michael Klaper who has been a vegan for over 30 years.
He discusses his diet starting at 15:20 in the video below, but essentially
breakfast :
a bowl of 4-5 types of fruit (watermelon, rockmelon, mango, grapes, etc) with a little oatmeal
lunch and dinner are similar :
SSS (salad, soup, steamed greens)
- salads
- hearty soups (bean and barley and vege)
- plate of steamed greens (i.e. kale, swiss chard, collard, broccoli, bok choy...with lemon juice over it) with quinoa on the side
desserts = cherry pie! (vegan of course)
He doesn't touch breads and pasta and refined flour products anymore.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:52 am
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Z-n ... 1ZHWGlDQWM
What do you think?
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:40 pm
http://plantbaseddietitian.com/around-t ... in-dishes/
Below is the most informative and convincing presentation I've seen for the preventive and reversal power of PBWF diet on cardiovascular disease. Interestingly, Dr Esselstyn showed the following list of foods that compromise endothelial cells, endothelial progenitor cells, and HDL. The full list
- all oils
- any animal flesh
- dairy
- caffeinated coffee
- fruit juices, the fructose gets into your blood stream too quick and spikes insulin (Dr Esselstyn is against having smoothies)
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:01 pm
CKinnard wrote:I mentioned above that US health insurance has begun to accept unconditionally the science on PBWF diets. Kaiser Permanente is from my research at the forefront of this trend. I found this PBWF diet guide on their website. I actually think they've done a very good job of dumbing down how to eat this way.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Z-n ... 1ZHWGlDQWM
What do you think?
“Eat food” is a redundant statement.“Eat food. Not too much. Mainly plants” – Michael Pollan
“Not too much” is probably the worst thing to tell a person going to plant based as that person will need to eat more food (in weight, volume and calories) to get the same number of available calories as he/she was getting before.
“Mainly plants” is better than nothing, but you can still be eating mainly plant foods and have a pretty poor diet.
Obviously a simple slogan is not the best idea for a brochure like this, but if it had to be done then I'd say:
Eat whole plant foods, limiting those high in fat.
Not catchy, but more accurate for a healthy diet.
I think better general advice would be to “Lower the amount of overt fats and higher density foods.” Although this requires the person to get to know the composition of food and/or food types and their calorie densities, it avoids vague generalisations. For example, should we lower the amount of sweet potato? It has a fairly low calorie density and higher nutrient density than many other plant foods.Tips
If you want to lose weight, choose the lower number of servings of nuts, seeds, starchy vegetables and whole grains.
Which whole grains to reduce depends on the processing and preparation. This gives an indicator of its final calorie density, which is what they are really getting at, since there is nothing wrong with whole grains in general.
Missed the point. People should be avoiding all oils for arterial health, not just choosing other fats more often.Choose fats from whole foods (avocado or olives) more often than processed oils (olive or canola oil).
Again, missed the point by being too general or vague.If you have heart disease, you may want to avoid or limit nuts, seeds and other fats and oils.
Generally most would benefit from 10g or walnuts and 10g of linseed daily for essential fats. Avoid all oils. Limit all other overt fat plant foods like nuts, coconut and avocado.
Esselstyn says if you have heart disease, avoid the nuts too.
Barnard in his book on diabetes says only to limit high GI fruit. I think the statement above is incorrect according to the fruit studies I've seen so far.If you have diabetes or high triglycerides, limit fruit to 3 servings a day.
On pages 3 & 4 they have a list of protein. This only panders to the false fear of protein deficiency IMO.
Pages 10 to 12 go into specific nutrients. The only ones really worth mentioning are B12 and PUFAs. Even mentioning PUFAs is debatable. Everything else is just trying to address the fear of nutrient deficiency. But most people on their current diets likely already have many deficiencies which will increase the risk of cancer without knowing it. A lack of fibre, anti-oxidants and other cancer fighting phytonutrients for example. Better to be positive and mention that people would be less likely to have deficiencies if they go on a well structured plant based diet.
Structuring a diet well (if that is important to one) really requires a tool like Cronometer and/or using a spreadsheet and food data sheets IMO. I use all of them, but most people would probably do fine just eating whatever and getting annual blood tests done. If you want to keep your weight low however, that requires more effort.
I think they are dumbing it down too much, making compromises to the biases of the audience and wasting space pandering to fears. In the process they are missing important messages, like the dangers of oil, getting too much fat, protein and calcium.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:27 pm
all good points Nobody.Nobody wrote: I think they are dumbing it down too much, making compromises to the biases of the audience and wasting space pandering to fears. In the process they are missing important messages, like the dangers of oil, getting too much fat, protein and calcium.
I suppose I focused on the portion table and the fact a large health insurer dared to promote plant based, at all!
Anyway, it is a start.
I've got a mate in Los Angeles at the moment, who I'll be catching up with in a few weeks.
He had a recent scare when cycling in the Santa Monica Mountains. After he spent 15 hours in A&E having every test known to man for cardiovascular health, he was told no abnormality was detected. Anyway, he asked me for advice and I told him to do a 60 day low fat vegan diet. This opened up a new dimension for him. He's a big shot and is used to doing French meals in the best restaurants. But he has been surprised how many of his peers are also heavily plant based.
Another mate I am catching up with lives in Las Vegas, and has been ovolactovego for 30+ years, and 100% vegan for 8. I've mentioned before his health is outstanding for a 60 year old. He also said veganism is gaining traction across the US.
I note DurianRider is over in L.A. at the moment too, and is stunned how big vegan is there. My mate is finding the same thing. It does seem veganism is on trend currently. Though who knows....it may just be a passing fad for many. I am always amazed the left side of politics who are so concerned with global warming are not aggressively promoting veganism. It's hypocritical that they don't broadcast the contribution of animal farming to global warming and how veganism is the only solution for that.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:53 pm
That would be because they actually need to get elected to try and implement any policy.CKinnard wrote: I am always amazed the left side of politics who are so concerned with global warming are not aggressively promoting veganism. It's hypocritical that they don't broadcast the contribution of animal farming to global warming and how veganism is the only solution for that.
As you know it would be political suicide to come between the masses and their beef hamburgers, T-bone steaks and iced coffees.
We could contrast it with the R side of politics and their stance that is at odds with the overwhelming consensus of climate science, however that would probably get us in trouble
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:08 pm
Warty, they should be living by their convictions (and rhetoric) and lead by example, if they really think climate change is the biggest threat to mankind.warthog1 wrote:That would be because they actually need to get elected to try and implement any policy.
As you know it would be political suicide to come between the masses and their beef hamburgers, T-bone steaks and iced coffees.
We could contrast it with the R side of politics and their stance that is at odds with the overwhelming consensus of climate science, however that would probably get us in trouble
What percentage of Labor Greens polies are vegans!?
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:31 pm
How much of their money is invested in petrochemical stocks?
How much party political funding comes from the fossil fuel industry, from the meat and dairy industry?
It is a multifactorial issue, politically and economically.
I personally prefer a party that attempts to implement policy that shifts us from our reliance on fossil fuels but given political discussion is verboten it's better left alone.
I would say we have opposing views on the subject in any case and doubt either of us would sway much, so that'll do from me.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:44 pm
But it is weak when climate change and obesity are possibly the two greatest moral challenges of civilization....and there is a lack of moral leadership on both. I suppose that's what first world entitlement is all about - no individual courage or responsibility.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Abby » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:20 am
I believe the 'eat food' part is actually meant to mean "eat 'actual food', as opposed to powders, sachets, meal replacements, etc". Which makes more sense anyway in the context of the message...Nobody wrote:CKinnard wrote:“Eat food” is a redundant statement.“Eat food. Not too much. Mainly plants” – Michael Pollan
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:56 am
Mine is down 43% (no meds) from my overweight, omnivore days.
https://youtu.be/cfYICz1fF3A?t=4m58s
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby softy » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:47 pm
when on the project show.......Nobody wrote:"Spud Fit" guy who has been eating potatoes since the beginning of the year, got his blood tests after 3 months. Main difference was a drop in total cholesterol of 32% with no meds. It should drop a bit more as his weight drops.
Mine is down 43% (no meds) from my overweight, omnivore days.
https://youtu.be/cfYICz1fF3A?t=4m58s
interesting how they get a fat adapter guru on to be the expert to critique a potato diet.
what is more interesting she doesn't even give factual comments.
i'm with Andrew, lets see where this goes.........
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:03 pm
I've never heard him confirm it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the idea came from the movie "The Martian". and incidentally, the first manned space expedition to Mars is supposed to be fueled by a vegan diet.
Incidentally, in 3 weeks, I'm starting an internship under Michael Klaper and Allan Goldhammer at True North Health Center in Santa Rosa, Northern California.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby softy » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:43 pm
Potatoes only can be criticised but at least it is far better than what he did previously.
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