Plant Based Diet Thread
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:32 pm
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:58 pm
Thanks.RhapsodyX wrote:Hmmmm... something for you to read, nobody...
Health span over life span IMO.
No point worrying about factors you can't change.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby RhapsodyX » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:14 am
Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre. Although, apparently not the same issue for cyclists as for runners - cyclists reportedly tend not to have the digestive motility that runners do, ie. runners are a lot more anxious about where the next portaloo is located!Nobody wrote:Yes. But I didn't think it was relevant to the thread as they both had the same problem which suggests it's an athlete issue, rather than a significant difference between diets. OT for this thread IMO.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:50 pm
That could also be due to the nature of the exercise as running jars the body more than cycling and therefor waste products are moved more rapidly towards being expelled.RhapsodyX wrote:Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre. Although, apparently not the same issue for cyclists as for runners - cyclists reportedly tend not to have the digestive motility that runners do, ie. runners are a lot more anxious about where the next portaloo is located!Nobody wrote:Yes. But I didn't think it was relevant to the thread as they both had the same problem which suggests it's an athlete issue, rather than a significant difference between diets. OT for this thread IMO.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:13 pm
I think with some of the petty squabbles we get up to the answer is self-evident.
I believe Nobody has posted that a plant-based diet offers improved motility.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:48 pm
Leaning forwards adds to compromised motility, as does not drinking regularly throughout the day or while riding.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:28 pm
Thanks for that
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:17 pm
Yes, a reasonable conclusion which I overlooked at the time. I think my mind was in the "doesn't apply to me or plant based, move on" mode.RhapsodyX wrote:Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre.
As for fibre, long term I've been getting 90+g/d and usually over 100g/d lately. I don't find it a problem and still usually only go once a day. But getting enough calories in may be more challenging if you want to get a lot of calories and fibre as well. I suppose you could easily double the calories with more potatoes or whole grains and halve the fibre. Then you'd still be getting 100g/d of fibre.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:40 pm
This video had a low sound issue for me toward the end.
It looks like the general acceptability of plant based diets is getting better.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:56 pm
Pam Popper's take on it:Nobody wrote:Cardiorespiratory Fitness and Peak Torque Differences between Vegetarian and Omnivore Endurance Athletes: A Cross-Sectional Study
Abstract: In spite of well-documented health benefits of vegetarian diets, less is known regarding the effects of these diets on athletic performance. In this cross-sectional study, we compared elite vegetarian and omnivore adult endurance athletes for maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) and strength. Twenty-seven vegetarian (VEG) and 43 omnivore (OMN) athletes were evaluated using VO2 max testing on the treadmill, and strength assessment using a dynamometer to determine peak torque for leg extensions. Dietary data were assessed using detailed seven-day food logs. Although total protein intake was lower among vegetarians in comparison to omnivores, protein intake as a function of body mass did not differ by group (1.2 ± 0.3 and 1.4 ± 0.5 g/kg body mass for VEG and OMN respectively, p = 0.220). VO2 max differed for females by diet group (53.0 ± 6.9 and 47.1 ± 8.6 mL/kg/min for VEG and OMN respectively, p < 0.05) but not for males (62.6 ± 15.4 and 55.7 ± 8.4 mL/kg/min respectively). Peak torque did not differ significantly between diet groups. Results from this study indicate that vegetarian endurance athletes’ cardiorespiratory fitness was greater than that for their omnivorous counterparts, but that peak torque did not differ between diet groups. These data suggest that vegetarian diets do not compromise performance outcomes and may facilitate aerobic capacity in athletes.(My bold)5. Conclusions
Our cross-sectional comparison of vegetarian and omnivore adult endurance athletes shows higher maximal oxygen uptake values among vegetarians and comparable strength, in spite of anthropometric and dietary differences. This study suggests that following a vegetarian diet may adequately support strength and cardiorespiratory fitness development, and may even be advantageous for supporting cardiorespiratory fitness.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:42 pm
I can't remember where I read or saw it, but more recent research has indicated there is a lower limit for vitamin D which is higher than what is considered the current minimum by authorities. I believe the new level is considered to be 75 nmol/L, at below which your cancer risk increases in at least one study (see below).
To give you some idea, the current lower limit on blood tests is 51 nmol/L. I sun bake briefly, but regularly (like daily, year round) when home and the sun is out. Yet in July my vit D level was 67 nmol/L. In Oct 2015 it was 87.
Anyway, so I did a quick search about it and found this recent article in BMJ which says for cancer:
Another site I stumbled upon that some may find interesting.A meta-analysis of 11 case-control studies from seven countries finds that incidence rates rise rapidly for 25(OH)D concentrations <60 nmol/L [9]. A pair of vitamin D3 plus calcium RCTs conducted on postmenopausal women in Nebraska found significantly reduced risks of cancer by-32 to -35% when 25(OH)D concentrations were increased from ~75 nmol/L to ~100 nmol/L [5,10].
http://www.vitamindsociety.org/
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:39 pm
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/vitamin-d
FWIW,
- True North say reducing sodium intake impacts bone loss more than Vit.D intake. i.e. excess sodium intake drives calcium out of bone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772639
- skin cancer rates are lower in vegans, and on TN's books, many skin lesions disappear after fasting and SOS diet.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:35 am
Thanks for posting.CKinnard wrote:ALways good to contrast anything you read against the nrv site.
https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/vitamin-d
It says about 10 ug/d with a max of 80 ug/d. This converts to 400 and 3200 IU. Some of the lowest intakes you can buy for vegan D3 is 1000 IU, so that is what I'll probably try supplementing from about April to October. The only other solution is an expensive vit D light. A better solution, but not a cost I can easily justify considering the little use and how cheap the supplements are. One reason why it can be better to live in Brisbane than Sydney I suppose.
That seems to correlate with what I've read about different metal ions competing for absorption by the body. That is why I'm supplementing zinc currently as a trial. I don't believe it's necessary for others to do so. I'm supplementing because individually I have on average higher blood iron levels, which may be inhibiting the absorption of other elements like zinc. My spreadsheet shows my zinc intake is also low. I should be getting enough Calcium. I'm going to continue some weight bearing exercises for bone density as it appears certain exercise and vit D intake has more to do with calcium absorption.CKinnard wrote:FWIW,
- True North say reducing sodium intake impacts bone loss more than Vit.D intake. i.e. excess sodium intake drives calcium out of bone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772639
As I'm SOS, the only significantly added sodium intake is from celery which I generally eat after rides to help with recovery from the sodium losses. That is generally < 200 mg, but it helps IMO. That, the nitrates and whatever else celery has. Even with 160g of celery, Cronometer says my sodium intake is only about 420 mg/d.
Thanks. Interesting to know.CKinnard wrote:- skin cancer rates are lower in vegans, and on TN's books, many skin lesions disappear after fasting and SOS diet.
This is why I'm not concerned about sun baking to get most of my vitamin D. As said above, I think I'll still supplement over winter though. I want to stay over 75 nmol/L which I'll probably get blood tested for in August to make sure. Then I'll know what potency of supplements I need to get for future use.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:22 pm
Beans and peas increase fullness more than meat
Study:"It is somewhat contrary to the widespread belief that one ought to consume a large amount of protein because it increases satiety more. Now, something suggests that one can eat a fiber-rich meal, with less protein, and achieve the same sensation of fullness. While more studies are needed for a definitive proof, it appears as if vegetable-based meals – particularly those based on beans and peas – both can serve as a long term basis for weight loss and as a sustainable eating habit", concludes Professor Raben.
http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net ... view/32634
Legumes are a good alternative to meat and should help reduce weight compared to meat. However they are still fairly high in both calorie density and protein. My personal experience is that legumes are not the best food for weight loss when consuming a whole foods plant only diet. Otherwise they are very healthy.
As for plant based authors, McDougall recommends limiting them to about a cup/d (about 165g), where Greger recommends large amounts like 330g+/d.
Might be one reason why Greger is always on the treadmill.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:32 pm
This study highlights the caution required in taking for granted wide held beliefs, such as meat is more filling.Nobody wrote:Legumes are a good alternative to meat and should help reduce weight compared to meat. However they are still fairly high in both calorie density and protein. My personal experience is that legumes are not the best food for weight loss when consuming a whole foods plant only diet. Otherwise they are very healthy.
As for plant based authors, McDougall recommends limiting them to about a cup/d (about 165g), where Greger recommends large amounts like 330g+/d.
Might be one reason why Greger is always on the treadmill.
Before this study, those who argued animal fat and protein is more sating than other food stuffs need to explain why there's a higher level of obesity among animal fat and meat eaters, than vegans and vegos. No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat! However, would heavy meat and fat eaters eat so many carbs if meat and fat were superior in satiety power?!
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:02 pm
Depends what the popular media is saying, or what the latest celebrity diet is. Many tend to be low carb. Many seem compelling and authoritative if you know almost nothing about diet.CKinnard wrote:No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat!
A good OT example below. This woman is a bodybuilder and claims tertiary credentials in diet. Also to be fair, this is assumed to be a bodybuilder's style of diet. Still, if you lose a lot of weight on her "Meal Plan for Fat Loss" it will be a triumph of exercise over diet (which for bodybuilding, can often be the case) and/or calorie restriction over all else. Macros are C33:F21:P46. No, that's not a typo, 46% animal protein. Can't be healthy.
https://youtu.be/9KvQrypADOk?t=19m45s
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby march83 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:36 pm
Now that I'm eating L-O-V I'm eating a light breakfast and 2 very, very large meals (lunch and dinner) a day and I feel uncomfortably bloated long before I feel satisfied and full. I find myself going back to the kitchen to snack between meals all day until bedtime.
In both cases I am/was in a pretty decent calorie deficit which i hope is the culprit. The L-O-V diet has afforded more total weight loss and is allowing me to exercise the way I want to so it's what I'm sticking with for the foreseeable future. When I get to my target weight I will add more calorie dense food and a little more protein and fat and I'm really hoping this will allow me to reach a steady, low weight and also feel satisfied more often.
For me "full" from fibrous veggies + meat + fats feels very different to "full" from fibrous veggies, starchy veggies, grains and fruits. The former is much more satisfying for me.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:35 pm
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:24 pm
Nobody, you should be able to spot naives messing with bro science to make a buck!Nobody wrote:Depends what the popular media is saying, or what the latest celebrity diet is. Many tend to be low carb. Many seem compelling and authoritative if you know almost nothing about diet.CKinnard wrote:No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat!
A good OT example below. This woman is a bodybuilder and claims tertiary credentials in diet. Also to be fair, this is assumed to be a bodybuilder's style of diet. Still, if you lose a lot of weight on her "Meal Plan for Fat Loss" it will be a triumph of exercise over diet (which for bodybuilding, can often be the case) and/or calorie restriction over all else. Macros are C33:F21:P46. No, that's not a typo, 46% animal protein. Can't be healthy.
https://youtu.be/9KvQrypADOk?t=19m45s
This unfortunate young lady has stretched beyond her education, whatever it is, and tried to apply protein and fat recommendations from some dodgy source to a total population. These figures were obviously never meant to apply to a total population because it doesn't take much stress testing to see they fall over very quickly. i.e. they can easily result in negative Calorie recommendations for carbohydrates.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:29 pm
been known about for at least 60 years, which is why you have to be careful how much povidine iodine you take in when traveling in the third world. used to be recommended to treat stream water before drinking or soaking fruit and vege in to kill bugs.Nobody wrote:Sounds like too much iodine can be more dangerous than too little.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:37 pm
sounds like you put weight back on after taking it off via HFLC. getting comfortable on any type of Calorie deficit can vary. it depends on a host of inputs such as sleep quality and mental and emotional stress, water intake, climate, exercise volume and intensity.march83 wrote:I haven't read the studies and I know the term "satiety" is used extensively in literature, but how exactly is it defined and determined? I know that when comparing when I was eating HFLC to now (Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarian), on the HFLC diet I would eat far smaller serves of food in terms of weights of food (obviously due to calorie density) and it was much easier to spend long periods without eating (i rarely ate breakfast, i never snacked after dinner, I often needed to be prompted to eat dinner at a sensible hour).
Now that I'm eating L-O-V I'm eating a light breakfast and 2 very, very large meals (lunch and dinner) a day and I feel uncomfortably bloated long before I feel satisfied and full. I find myself going back to the kitchen to snack between meals all day until bedtime.
In both cases I am/was in a pretty decent calorie deficit which i hope is the culprit. The L-O-V diet has afforded more total weight loss and is allowing me to exercise the way I want to so it's what I'm sticking with for the foreseeable future. When I get to my target weight I will add more calorie dense food and a little more protein and fat and I'm really hoping this will allow me to reach a steady, low weight and also feel satisfied more often.
For me "full" from fibrous veggies + meat + fats feels very different to "full" from fibrous veggies, starchy veggies, grains and fruits. The former is much more satisfying for me.
microbiome can influence what type of diet sates you too.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:47 pm
I hope so.CKinnard wrote:Nobody, you should be able to spot naives messing with bro science to make a buck!
The blind leading the blind IMO.
Interesting observation I didn't think of. Thanks.CKinnard wrote:This unfortunate young lady has stretched beyond her education, whatever it is, and tried to apply protein and fat recommendations from some dodgy source to a total population. These figures were obviously never meant to apply to a total population because it doesn't take much stress testing to see they fall over very quickly. i.e. they can easily result in negative Calorie recommendations for carbohydrates.
Most of the bodybuilding industry appears to be built on over inflated protein requirements so they can sell their brotein supplements.
I fact checked her carb 4.1, prot 4.1, fat 9.3 Cals/g (earlier in video) to find the FAO doesn't use it. If anything, on some measures/foods they can be less than 4.0, 4.0 & 9.0. So the FAO is staying with the standard "metabolizable energy” (ME) standard of 4.0, 4.0 & 9.0.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y5022e/y5022e04.htm
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:31 pm
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:20 pm
________________________________________________________________________________________
I thought the following might make some of us who measure/estimate things question why we do it.
For me, the answer is to get the diet composition - as Doug calls it - correct. So that's primarily calorie density, fat and protein levels. If they are low enough, I usually get good results when I eat to satiation.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread
Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:18 pm
Re Doug's eating tips, let be honest, avocado is rarely on the TN menu. It's a treat once a week if that.
Interestingly, the fatso's used to always be walking into the kitchen to ask the chef for avo.
I think if you have been grossly overweight, Doug is not the best person to talk to as he has no personal experience with the cravings that take people down that path. Doug is psychologically and physically atypical.
AJ has a more relate-able life history for ppl who have struggled with weight, as do I!!!!
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