Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:32 pm

From what I've seen many elite athletes fail to adapt their diet in accordance with the change in their activity when they retire from elite sport.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:58 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:Hmmmm... something for you to read, nobody...
Thanks.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:14 am

Nobody wrote:Yes. But I didn't think it was relevant to the thread as they both had the same problem which suggests it's an athlete issue, rather than a significant difference between diets. OT for this thread IMO.
Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre. Although, apparently not the same issue for cyclists as for runners - cyclists reportedly tend not to have the digestive motility that runners do, ie. runners are a lot more anxious about where the next portaloo is located!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:50 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
Nobody wrote:Yes. But I didn't think it was relevant to the thread as they both had the same problem which suggests it's an athlete issue, rather than a significant difference between diets. OT for this thread IMO.
Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre. Although, apparently not the same issue for cyclists as for runners - cyclists reportedly tend not to have the digestive motility that runners do, ie. runners are a lot more anxious about where the next portaloo is located!
That could also be due to the nature of the exercise as running jars the body more than cycling and therefor waste products are moved more rapidly towards being expelled.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:13 pm

^^ Does that mean us bike riders comparitively, are full of it?

I think with some of the petty squabbles we get up to the answer is self-evident. :)

I believe Nobody has posted that a plant-based diet offers improved motility.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:48 pm

Cyclists are inclined to be less regular because they exercise longer than runners, in which time they are shunting fluid out of their viscera and into muscles.That compromises stool formation and motility.

Leaning forwards adds to compromised motility, as does not drinking regularly throughout the day or while riding.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:28 pm

We are full of it :lol:

Thanks for that :oops: :)
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:17 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:Actually, I saw it as reinforcement that whole-foods should be preferred whenever possible as a away of avoiding fat-storing insulin spikes. Downside being... fibre.
Yes, a reasonable conclusion which I overlooked at the time. I think my mind was in the "doesn't apply to me or plant based, move on" mode.
As for fibre, long term I've been getting 90+g/d and usually over 100g/d lately. I don't find it a problem and still usually only go once a day. But getting enough calories in may be more challenging if you want to get a lot of calories and fibre as well. I suppose you could easily double the calories with more potatoes or whole grains and halve the fibre. Then you'd still be getting 100g/d of fibre.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:40 pm

The below video highlight a recent article from the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics about vegetarian and vegan diets.

This video had a low sound issue for me toward the end.


It looks like the general acceptability of plant based diets is getting better.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:56 pm

From page 20:
Nobody wrote:Cardiorespiratory Fitness and Peak Torque Differences between Vegetarian and Omnivore Endurance Athletes: A Cross-Sectional Study
Abstract: In spite of well-documented health benefits of vegetarian diets, less is known regarding the effects of these diets on athletic performance. In this cross-sectional study, we compared elite vegetarian and omnivore adult endurance athletes for maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) and strength. Twenty-seven vegetarian (VEG) and 43 omnivore (OMN) athletes were evaluated using VO2 max testing on the treadmill, and strength assessment using a dynamometer to determine peak torque for leg extensions. Dietary data were assessed using detailed seven-day food logs. Although total protein intake was lower among vegetarians in comparison to omnivores, protein intake as a function of body mass did not differ by group (1.2 ± 0.3 and 1.4 ± 0.5 g/kg body mass for VEG and OMN respectively, p = 0.220). VO2 max differed for females by diet group (53.0 ± 6.9 and 47.1 ± 8.6 mL/kg/min for VEG and OMN respectively, p < 0.05) but not for males (62.6 ± 15.4 and 55.7 ± 8.4 mL/kg/min respectively). Peak torque did not differ significantly between diet groups. Results from this study indicate that vegetarian endurance athletes’ cardiorespiratory fitness was greater than that for their omnivorous counterparts, but that peak torque did not differ between diet groups. These data suggest that vegetarian diets do not compromise performance outcomes and may facilitate aerobic capacity in athletes.
5. Conclusions
Our cross-sectional comparison of vegetarian and omnivore adult endurance athletes shows higher maximal oxygen uptake values among vegetarians and comparable strength, in spite of anthropometric and dietary differences. This study suggests that following a vegetarian diet may adequately support strength and cardiorespiratory fitness development, and may even be advantageous for supporting cardiorespiratory fitness.
(My bold)
Pam Popper's take on it:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:42 pm

IMO, vitamin D is something most should keep an eye on with regular blood tests considering how little time we collectively seems to spend outside these days. Especially if not eating animal products as omnis get a small amount from them. Also the "slip, slop slap" campaign seems to be harming vit D levels of Australians in particular.

I can't remember where I read or saw it, but more recent research has indicated there is a lower limit for vitamin D which is higher than what is considered the current minimum by authorities. I believe the new level is considered to be 75 nmol/L, at below which your cancer risk increases in at least one study (see below).
To give you some idea, the current lower limit on blood tests is 51 nmol/L. I sun bake briefly, but regularly (like daily, year round) when home and the sun is out. Yet in July my vit D level was 67 nmol/L. In Oct 2015 it was 87.

Anyway, so I did a quick search about it and found this recent article in BMJ which says for cancer:
A meta-analysis of 11 case-control studies from seven countries finds that incidence rates rise rapidly for 25(OH)D concentrations <60 nmol/L [9]. A pair of vitamin D3 plus calcium RCTs conducted on postmenopausal women in Nebraska found significantly reduced risks of cancer by-32 to -35% when 25(OH)D concentrations were increased from ~75 nmol/L to ~100 nmol/L [5,10].
Another site I stumbled upon that some may find interesting.
http://www.vitamindsociety.org/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:39 pm

ALways good to contrast anything you read against the nrv site.

https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/vitamin-d

FWIW,

- True North say reducing sodium intake impacts bone loss more than Vit.D intake. i.e. excess sodium intake drives calcium out of bone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772639


- skin cancer rates are lower in vegans, and on TN's books, many skin lesions disappear after fasting and SOS diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:35 am

CKinnard wrote:ALways good to contrast anything you read against the nrv site.

https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/vitamin-d
Thanks for posting.

It says about 10 ug/d with a max of 80 ug/d. This converts to 400 and 3200 IU. Some of the lowest intakes you can buy for vegan D3 is 1000 IU, so that is what I'll probably try supplementing from about April to October. The only other solution is an expensive vit D light. A better solution, but not a cost I can easily justify considering the little use and how cheap the supplements are. One reason why it can be better to live in Brisbane than Sydney I suppose.
CKinnard wrote:FWIW,

- True North say reducing sodium intake impacts bone loss more than Vit.D intake. i.e. excess sodium intake drives calcium out of bone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772639
That seems to correlate with what I've read about different metal ions competing for absorption by the body. That is why I'm supplementing zinc currently as a trial. I don't believe it's necessary for others to do so. I'm supplementing because individually I have on average higher blood iron levels, which may be inhibiting the absorption of other elements like zinc. My spreadsheet shows my zinc intake is also low. I should be getting enough Calcium. I'm going to continue some weight bearing exercises for bone density as it appears certain exercise and vit D intake has more to do with calcium absorption.

As I'm SOS, the only significantly added sodium intake is from celery which I generally eat after rides to help with recovery from the sodium losses. That is generally < 200 mg, but it helps IMO. That, the nitrates and whatever else celery has. Even with 160g of celery, Cronometer says my sodium intake is only about 420 mg/d.

CKinnard wrote:- skin cancer rates are lower in vegans, and on TN's books, many skin lesions disappear after fasting and SOS diet.
Thanks. Interesting to know.
This is why I'm not concerned about sun baking to get most of my vitamin D. As said above, I think I'll still supplement over winter though. I want to stay over 75 nmol/L which I'll probably get blood tested for in August to make sure. Then I'll know what potency of supplements I need to get for future use.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:22 pm

Article
Beans and peas increase fullness more than meat
"It is somewhat contrary to the widespread belief that one ought to consume a large amount of protein because it increases satiety more. Now, something suggests that one can eat a fiber-rich meal, with less protein, and achieve the same sensation of fullness. While more studies are needed for a definitive proof, it appears as if vegetable-based meals – particularly those based on beans and peas – both can serve as a long term basis for weight loss and as a sustainable eating habit", concludes Professor Raben.
Study:
http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net ... view/32634

Legumes are a good alternative to meat and should help reduce weight compared to meat. However they are still fairly high in both calorie density and protein. My personal experience is that legumes are not the best food for weight loss when consuming a whole foods plant only diet. Otherwise they are very healthy.
As for plant based authors, McDougall recommends limiting them to about a cup/d (about 165g), where Greger recommends large amounts like 330g+/d.
Might be one reason why Greger is always on the treadmill. :mrgreen:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:32 pm

Nobody wrote:Legumes are a good alternative to meat and should help reduce weight compared to meat. However they are still fairly high in both calorie density and protein. My personal experience is that legumes are not the best food for weight loss when consuming a whole foods plant only diet. Otherwise they are very healthy.
As for plant based authors, McDougall recommends limiting them to about a cup/d (about 165g), where Greger recommends large amounts like 330g+/d.
Might be one reason why Greger is always on the treadmill. :mrgreen:
This study highlights the caution required in taking for granted wide held beliefs, such as meat is more filling.

Before this study, those who argued animal fat and protein is more sating than other food stuffs need to explain why there's a higher level of obesity among animal fat and meat eaters, than vegans and vegos. No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat! :roll: However, would heavy meat and fat eaters eat so many carbs if meat and fat were superior in satiety power?!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:02 pm

CKinnard wrote:No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat! :roll:
Depends what the popular media is saying, or what the latest celebrity diet is. Many tend to be low carb. Many seem compelling and authoritative if you know almost nothing about diet.
A good OT example below. This woman is a bodybuilder and claims tertiary credentials in diet. Also to be fair, this is assumed to be a bodybuilder's style of diet. Still, if you lose a lot of weight on her "Meal Plan for Fat Loss" it will be a triumph of exercise over diet (which for bodybuilding, can often be the case) and/or calorie restriction over all else. Macros are C33:F21:P46. No, that's not a typo, 46% animal protein. Can't be healthy.
https://youtu.be/9KvQrypADOk?t=19m45s

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:36 pm

I haven't read the studies and I know the term "satiety" is used extensively in literature, but how exactly is it defined and determined? I know that when comparing when I was eating HFLC to now (Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarian), on the HFLC diet I would eat far smaller serves of food in terms of weights of food (obviously due to calorie density) and it was much easier to spend long periods without eating (i rarely ate breakfast, i never snacked after dinner, I often needed to be prompted to eat dinner at a sensible hour).

Now that I'm eating L-O-V I'm eating a light breakfast and 2 very, very large meals (lunch and dinner) a day and I feel uncomfortably bloated long before I feel satisfied and full. I find myself going back to the kitchen to snack between meals all day until bedtime.

In both cases I am/was in a pretty decent calorie deficit which i hope is the culprit. The L-O-V diet has afforded more total weight loss and is allowing me to exercise the way I want to so it's what I'm sticking with for the foreseeable future. When I get to my target weight I will add more calorie dense food and a little more protein and fat and I'm really hoping this will allow me to reach a steady, low weight and also feel satisfied more often.

For me "full" from fibrous veggies + meat + fats feels very different to "full" from fibrous veggies, starchy veggies, grains and fruits. The former is much more satisfying for me.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:35 pm

Sounds like too much iodine can be more dangerous than too little.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:24 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:No doubt the wags will say it's due to the sugar and other refined carbs they also eat! :roll:
Depends what the popular media is saying, or what the latest celebrity diet is. Many tend to be low carb. Many seem compelling and authoritative if you know almost nothing about diet.
A good OT example below. This woman is a bodybuilder and claims tertiary credentials in diet. Also to be fair, this is assumed to be a bodybuilder's style of diet. Still, if you lose a lot of weight on her "Meal Plan for Fat Loss" it will be a triumph of exercise over diet (which for bodybuilding, can often be the case) and/or calorie restriction over all else. Macros are C33:F21:P46. No, that's not a typo, 46% animal protein. Can't be healthy.
https://youtu.be/9KvQrypADOk?t=19m45s
Nobody, you should be able to spot naives messing with bro science to make a buck! :)

This unfortunate young lady has stretched beyond her education, whatever it is, and tried to apply protein and fat recommendations from some dodgy source to a total population. These figures were obviously never meant to apply to a total population because it doesn't take much stress testing to see they fall over very quickly. i.e. they can easily result in negative Calorie recommendations for carbohydrates.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:29 pm

Nobody wrote:Sounds like too much iodine can be more dangerous than too little.
been known about for at least 60 years, which is why you have to be careful how much povidine iodine you take in when traveling in the third world. used to be recommended to treat stream water before drinking or soaking fruit and vege in to kill bugs.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:37 pm

march83 wrote:I haven't read the studies and I know the term "satiety" is used extensively in literature, but how exactly is it defined and determined? I know that when comparing when I was eating HFLC to now (Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarian), on the HFLC diet I would eat far smaller serves of food in terms of weights of food (obviously due to calorie density) and it was much easier to spend long periods without eating (i rarely ate breakfast, i never snacked after dinner, I often needed to be prompted to eat dinner at a sensible hour).

Now that I'm eating L-O-V I'm eating a light breakfast and 2 very, very large meals (lunch and dinner) a day and I feel uncomfortably bloated long before I feel satisfied and full. I find myself going back to the kitchen to snack between meals all day until bedtime.

In both cases I am/was in a pretty decent calorie deficit which i hope is the culprit. The L-O-V diet has afforded more total weight loss and is allowing me to exercise the way I want to so it's what I'm sticking with for the foreseeable future. When I get to my target weight I will add more calorie dense food and a little more protein and fat and I'm really hoping this will allow me to reach a steady, low weight and also feel satisfied more often.

For me "full" from fibrous veggies + meat + fats feels very different to "full" from fibrous veggies, starchy veggies, grains and fruits. The former is much more satisfying for me.
sounds like you put weight back on after taking it off via HFLC. getting comfortable on any type of Calorie deficit can vary. it depends on a host of inputs such as sleep quality and mental and emotional stress, water intake, climate, exercise volume and intensity.
microbiome can influence what type of diet sates you too.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, you should be able to spot naives messing with bro science to make a buck! :)
I hope so. :)
The blind leading the blind IMO.
CKinnard wrote:This unfortunate young lady has stretched beyond her education, whatever it is, and tried to apply protein and fat recommendations from some dodgy source to a total population. These figures were obviously never meant to apply to a total population because it doesn't take much stress testing to see they fall over very quickly. i.e. they can easily result in negative Calorie recommendations for carbohydrates.
Interesting observation I didn't think of. Thanks.

Most of the bodybuilding industry appears to be built on over inflated protein requirements so they can sell their brotein supplements.

I fact checked her carb 4.1, prot 4.1, fat 9.3 Cals/g (earlier in video) to find the FAO doesn't use it. If anything, on some measures/foods they can be less than 4.0, 4.0 & 9.0. So the FAO is staying with the standard "metabolizable energy” (ME) standard of 4.0, 4.0 & 9.0.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y5022e/y5022e04.htm

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:31 pm

I wouldn't bother trying to work out anything she says. She hasn't made public her education or professional record. She's just a kid into lifting to look good. There's nothing in her video that goes beyond freshman biology. plus she screwed some of her calculations, so obviously doesn't do them as a matter of course. And her website is essentially anonymous.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Thanks CK. She's just another example of people misleading the majority.

________________________________________________________________________________________

I thought the following might make some of us who measure/estimate things question why we do it.



For me, the answer is to get the diet composition - as Doug calls it - correct. So that's primarily calorie density, fat and protein levels. If they are low enough, I usually get good results when I eat to satiation.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:18 pm

I like Doug, but he is definitely a data driven sensate. Intuitive driven he is not. Klaper is the total opposite, makes you feel like you are talking to someone with 500 years of rich life experience.

Re Doug's eating tips, let be honest, avocado is rarely on the TN menu. It's a treat once a week if that.
Interestingly, the fatso's used to always be walking into the kitchen to ask the chef for avo.

I think if you have been grossly overweight, Doug is not the best person to talk to as he has no personal experience with the cravings that take people down that path. Doug is psychologically and physically atypical.

AJ has a more relate-able life history for ppl who have struggled with weight, as do I!!!!

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