Plant Based Diet Thread

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RhapsodyX
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:55 pm

Nobody wrote:... Anti-Oxidant video ...
Hmmmm....

... of course, a high-quality diet is good (and the definition of "quality" in research is usually indicated by a higher consumption of whole food fruit/vegetables), but focusing on "anti-oxidants" might not be a good move.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:05 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
Nobody wrote:... white-rice-brown video ...
So... why does it make a difference, and could the knowledge be applied to other foods?
It's a shame reductionist science is a waste of time and money. (Yes - taking a dig at the previous video).
He mentioned right at the start of the video he had explored it previously;

The protein exacerbation of the effect of refined carbs could help explain the remarkable results achieved by Dr. Kempner with a don’t-try-this-at-home diet composed of mostly white rice and sugar. See Kempner Rice Diet: Whipping Us Into Shape.

Refined grains may also not be good for our blood pressure (Whole Grains May Work As Well As Drugs).


http://nutritionfacts.org/video/if-whit ... out-china/
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:26 pm

warthog1 wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:
Nobody wrote:... white-rice-brown video ...
So... why does it make a difference, and could the knowledge be applied to other foods?
It's a shame reductionist science is a waste of time and money. (Yes - taking a dig at the previous video).
He mentioned right at the start of the video he had explored it previously;

The protein exacerbation of the effect of refined carbs could help explain the remarkable results achieved by Dr. Kempner with a don’t-try-this-at-home diet composed of mostly white rice and sugar. See Kempner Rice Diet: Whipping Us Into Shape.

Refined grains may also not be good for our blood pressure (Whole Grains May Work As Well As Drugs).


http://nutritionfacts.org/video/if-whit ... out-china/
Which goes no way towards explaining the differences observed in the white rice/brown rice random cross-over study. The hypothesis would have to be tested.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:30 pm

It explains it well enough for me together with the rise in insulin resistance in some asian populations coinciding with an increase in white rice consumption.
Ymmv
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:18 am

warthog1 wrote:It explains it well enough for me together with the rise in insulin resistance in some asian populations coinciding with an increase in white rice consumption.
Ymmv
So... you haven't worked out the vegan trick of showing the insulin-to-glucose response of beef (high) rather than the insulin index numbers (moderate), as proof that "animal protein" causes insulin resistance?

The RCT simply substituted white rice and brown rice in crossover calorie restricted, so the Asian diabetes video has almost zero relevance unless you are hypothesizing that brown rice isn't affected by animal protein which would (1) go completely against the nutritionfacts POV that all animal protein is bad and (2) it's still an untested hypothesis and therefore just unsupported speculation.

Which leave us... nowhere, as all that has been shown (via the RCT) is that brown rice is better for health than white rice - which was always a no-brainer anyway. Brown rice is ~15% lower on the insulin index despite only being ~5% lower on the glucose index.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:09 pm

There's a good case to decrease animal flesh due to methionine restriction benefits on aging and cancer (via IGF-1 reduction). In fact, this whole cascade which involves homocysteine, methionine, and IGF-1 is a keystone to the adverse effects of animal proteins.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 13014/full
http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/j ... nd-control

Further, there's leucine, advanced glycation end products, heme iron, mTor, all of which effect health adversely.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:44 pm

CKinnard wrote:There's a good case to decrease animal flesh due to methionine restriction benefits on aging and cancer (via IGF-1 reduction). In fact, this whole cascade which involves homocysteine, methionine, and IGF-1 is a keystone to the adverse effects of animal proteins.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 13014/full
http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/j ... nd-control

Further, there's leucine, advanced glycation end products, heme iron, mTor, all of which effect health adversely.
Yes - but we are talking DIABETES.

And I do believe that methionine was briefly discussed in the other diet thread. Oh yes, that's right - I brought that one up.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:42 pm

IGF-1 has been long associated with insulin resistance and T2D.

And methionine is found in animal proteins most.

If you want to avoid T2D, look at intermittent or alternate day fasting, low bodyfat %, stress management, regular moderate to high intensity activity, and PBWF diet....and stay away from high glycemic simple or processed carbs....fruit is ok though.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:09 am

CKinnard wrote:IGF-1 has been long associated with insulin resistance and T2D.
Scientific proof?
CKinnard wrote:And methionine is found in animal proteins most.
Correct.
CKinnard wrote:If you want to avoid T2D, look at intermittent or alternate day fasting, low bodyfat %, stress management, regular moderate to high intensity activity, and PBWF diet....and stay away from high glycemic simple or processed carbs....fruit is ok though.
How does this relate to the brown rice vs white rice video and warthog1 raising the embedded "china diabetes" video as an explanation as to why there is a difference? It's starting to look like another strawman avoidance tactic to me.

Edit: Fixed quote level error.
Last edited by RhapsodyX on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:09 am

Edit: Double post removed.
Last edited by RhapsodyX on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:07 pm


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:59 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
How does this relate to the brown rice vs white rice video and warthog1 raising the embedded "china diabetes" video as an explanation as to why there is a difference? It's starting to look like another strawman avoidance tactic to me.

Edit: Fixed quote level error.

I may look like alot of things to you. That is irrelevant to the thread.
Wth are you doing on here anyway, given the thread was likely created to separate the discussion from your unfounded fat based ramblings on the other thread? ;
This thread is NOT intended to be a place to discuss/argue about different types of diets. If comparisons are made between different diets - which is inevitable since the science does that - that is not an invitation to defend the other diet. Please start another thread on whatever diet is your preference and defend it there. Or take it to the Diet Thread which was made for that purpose.

If you want to discuss other types of diets, please start another thread.
Last edited by warthog1 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:08 pm

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:44 pm

From that paleo article;
Is a Return to the Paleo Diet Right for You?

During the Paleolithic period, many thousands of years ago, people ate primarily vegetables, fruit, nuts, roots and meat


As we well know there is no evolutionary evidence pointing toward the consumption of large qtys of meat or, as you would advocate, fat.
This is the plant based diet thread, not the paleo or LCHF thread
Last edited by warthog1 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:57 pm

All right kiddies, that'll do.

This thread is meant as a playroom for those wishing to eat plant based. Ideas, support, recipes, whatever. If that's not your thing you have basically two options...

Dietary science chat is HERE

If you wish to promote your own way and discus and support neophytes, start your own thread (which will become your playroom).

I don't come here often but when I do there's always some nasty to deal with. I am highly recommending that recent participants from all schools of thought review their posts with an eye to how appropriate they are to the discussion.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:24 am

Mulger bill wrote:This thread is meant as a playroom for those wishing to eat plant based. Ideas, support, recipes, whatever. If that's not your thing you have basically two options...


Serious question : I eat approximately 1.5kg of plant material a day, but where I get the majority of my calories from I keep as my own business - does that preclude me from being allowed to have an opinion regarding plants?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 am

Back to the topic...
Nobody wrote:... worth-switching-white-rice-brown ...
Not being into rice, I hadn't recently looked into it, but I though I'd do some poking around to see how much resistant starch could be obtained, and came across this recent (2015) review : A systematic review of the influence of rice characteristics and processing methods on postprandial glycaemic and insulinaemic responses. The linked research is also interesting.

I'd never even heard of "parboiled rice", but as it's not likely to be found on the shelves of coles/woolies etc., that would just make me ignorant (yet again). But at the end of the day... even long-grain brown rice is (relatively) lacking in nutrients, and retrograded roasted potato gives significantly better results in terms of resistant starch - which, as we should all know, is severely lacking in first-world diets.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:35 pm

The Brown vs White rice is an interesting discussion. Depending on why you want to change the nutritional balance of the rice, there is middle ground in the selection of white rice, with Jasmine being the worse and Basmati being the best. And if you want to go the full quid there's brown Basmati rice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmati

Another rice I brought a while back was called black rice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_rice I must buy some again
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:50 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:This thread is meant as a playroom for those wishing to eat plant based. Ideas, support, recipes, whatever. If that's not your thing you have basically two options...


Serious question : I eat approximately 1.5kg of plant material a day, but where I get the majority of my calories from I keep as my own business - does that preclude me from being allowed to have an opinion regarding plants?


You would expect being lchf as you have frequently espoused, the correct option for you would be to start your own thread with that as the basis for discussion
This is a wfpb diet thread as you well know.
The impetus for you to post in here appears to be a continuing disagreement with the op's dietary and nutritional choices.
Given you consistently post at odds with what he posts and given you recieve no reply, would it not be logical to conclude that this thread is not the platform for those with a lchf diet.
I don't know how much plainer the op can make it.

[removed unnecessary attack]
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:44 pm

I'm not convinced it's worth worrying about. Plus, the "modern paleo" movement has accepted retrograded white rice, so things have obviously moved along from the original (trademarked) "Paleo Diet".

Physiological stress, exercise and genetics all affect gut permeability (and susceptibility) along with antibiotic use etc. And the effects are probably moderated by eating sufficient fibre along with prebiotics (resistant starches, soluble fibre etc.). Throw in the fact that the research has concentrated on wheat and the other cereal grains have not really been covered - it's probably not worth worrying about unless someone is considering ONLY eating whole grains.

Plus - as Nobody as posted - whole grains are associated with better health.

So... shades of grey, yet again.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:46 pm

warthog1 wrote: [removed]
Thanks for the valuable input. I'm here to talk about plants, not other diets.
And I don't follow "LCHF". Attention to detail, please.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:56 pm

HFLC then. Semantics.

I am sorry that was taken as an attack. It was not intended to be.
It was a question as to the motives of Mr X in posting on this thread.
This thread is NOT intended to be a place to discuss/argue about different types of diets. If comparisons are made between different diets - which is inevitable since the science does that - that is not an invitation to defend the other diet. Please start another thread on whatever diet is your preference and defend it there. Or take it to the Diet Thread which was made for that purpose.

If you want to discuss other types of diets, please start another thread.
That is very straight forward to me.
I suggest you go back and read your recent posts RX, and see how they sit with those sentiments.
Last edited by warthog1 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:02 pm

Admin Says: This is a completely reasonable thread and approach to limit discussion by defining some guides. It very clearly asks participants who want to go off-topic to start a new thread which is also a very reasonable request allowing both this discussion group to continue and similar discussions to be initiated that can go off-topic to discuss pros and cons.

1. It is simply unnecessary to challenge the character of others in your posts. This type of approach reflects the character of person dealing insults... Don't stoop down, simply reach for the report button when you feel that another person is not participating fairly.

2. The mods and myself have been trying not to use heavy-handed moderation, however may need to change tack and remove people from the discussion or other action... let's not go there.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:13 pm

Red and Black rice have higher nutrient quality than white, or brown.

But even moreso, reductionist studies of individual food items prove very little.
Longitudinal studies of large populations are more telling. Why? Because nutritional science is far too complex and unevolved to apply reductionist principles to health outcomes over a life time, or several generations.

Personally, I attach greater weight to observational studies carried out over many generations. And that favors blue zone experience. However, it is very likely that blue zone longevity advantage has as much to do with simple lifestyle and non diet related factors....and developed nations overall, have totally different life stressors to all but Loma Linda seventh day adventists.

So, when clients want my professional opinion, I summarize it thus:

from a reductionist perspective, a very low fat PBWF diet has been shown to reverse atherosclerosis, and most common morbidities are associated with high intake of animal produce and processed carbohydrates. health advantage is associated with a varied intake of unprocessed whole foods, the most important being a high intake of minimally processed fibrous carbohydrates and fruits. Legumes also have strong health advantages. There is much evidence that processed meats in particular, and animal flesh of any type has health disadvantages in moderate to high doses (methionine, homocysteine, IGF-1)

longitudinal studies show a longevity and low morbidity advantage associated with a primarily plant based whole food diet, with animal flesh and dairy/eggs taken more as an accompaniment rather than a staple, and a moderate to high intake of legumes and small intake of nuts and seeds.

On balance, it would seem judicious to make a diet primarily PBWF, and take animal produce as an accompaniment. Teasing out greater detail than this is confounded by race based genetic variation i.e. Asian lactose intolerance.

If one is serious about longevity however, one must also consider the benefits of non nutritional factors such as fasting (alternate day, intermittent, prolonged), managing life stressors, social life, and life meaning. Addressing these issues are very likely to be more important than micromanaging diet.
Last edited by CKinnard on Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:15 pm

Nobody wrote: The regulars to the "Diet Thread" know the context of the initial post of this thread. The purpose of separating this thread from the "Diet Thread" is to try to prevent arguments and diet comparisons which make up the bulk of the Diet Thread. This thread is to promote, encourage and educate in plant based eating. The new are usually welcome if they want to eat more plant based.
(Not in response to CKinnard).

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