Plant Based Diet Thread

[CKinnard]

http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... ard-serves
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... kes#adults

RDI for men 19-50
serves group
6 veg and legumes
2 fruit
6 grains
3 protein
2.5 dairy
0-3 additional serves for taller or more active people.

Estimating the total Cals
veg and legumes : 1/2 cup legumes, 1 cups steamed, 3 cups salad = 220 Calories
fruit : 2 cups of mixed fruit = 120 Calories
grains : 3 cups of various cooked grains = 600 Calories
protein : 1 Cup of legumes 200 Cals, 170g tofu 100 Cals, 30g nuts and seeds 180Cals
dairy alt : 2.5 cups of soy milk or similar = 160 Cals

Total = 1580 Calories

This is not enough for the average 70kg male who has a sedentary job and might walk 5 hours a week at an average 5kph. I would imagine the average weight of males in this group is well beyond the historical 70kg.

Anyway, this highlights why i have issues with the guidelines.

___________________________________

I can be hot and cold with legumes. If I make a chili and eat with lots of salad or vege I don't seem to have an uncomfortable fullness and increased flatulence. If I eat a cup with a couple of cups of bokchoi, I do have those symptoms.

My intuition is though that Greger is probably overplaying legumes, and nuts and seeds while we are at it. Evolutionarily speaking, I just don't see that these would have been plentiful enough to have regularly.

Grains are very much tied to activity levels. Are you sure you are interpreting your intake as 1/2 cups and not cups? i.e. 2 serves of grains a day is one cup of cooked rice.

Re priority order, if I am constructing a Calorie restricted diet, I start with g/kg/day of protein required, then fruits and vege (minimum 8 'serves' vege and 2 fruit), then starch to make up whatever is left.

I am also sceptical about including nuts and seeds as a protein source.
compare 1 serve of each (% of total Calories)
100g raw flesh = 22g protein per 150 Cals 59%
30g nuts and seeds = 5.5g protein per 182 Cals 12%
2 large eggs = 11g protein per 123 Cals 36%
170g tofu = 20g protein per 216 Cals 37%
1 Cup of cooked legumes = 15g protein per 216 Cals 28%

[march83]

My intuition is though that Greger is probably overplaying legumes, and nuts and seeds while we are at it. Evolutionarily speaking, I just don't see that these would have been plentiful enough to have regularly.

Out of interest, how would historical availability be any indication of a food's benefits?

I am also sceptical about including nuts and seeds as a protein source.
compare 1 serve of each (% of total Calories)
100g raw flesh = 22g protein per 150 Cals 59%
30g nuts and seeds = 5.5g protein per 182 Cals 12%
2 large eggs = 11g protein per 123 Cals 36%
170g tofu = 20g protein per 216 Cals 37%
1 Cup of cooked legumes = 15g protein per 216 Cals 28%

What's 1 cup of cooked legumes in grams approximately? By calories, i make that a bit under 200g of chickpeas - does that seem about right?

FWIW, i don't rely on nuts as a protein source nearly so much as i rely on them as a fat source. Calorie density is far too high to get a meaningful amount of protein. Also, my satiety on nuts is very slow and very poor. I can eat 1000 calories of nuts in a sitting before my body starts to tell me that it's a bad idea to do so...

[CKinnard]

Out of interest, how would historical availability be any indication of a food's benefits?

What's 1 cup of cooked legumes in grams approximately? By calories, i make that a bit under 200g of chickpeas - does that seem about right?

1. because whether you believe in evolutionary natural selection theory or not, we have another adaptive ability - our bodies have a significant capacity to adapt via epigenetics over dozens of generations to a climate and available food stuffs....which is why races/ethnic groups have varying capacities for certain foods. i.e. lactose intolerance of Asians and many black Africans; and why if you tried to survive on an Eskimo's traditional diet, you'd probably die before 50yo.

2. a cup of legumes is 170g. that's cooked and the average of at least 5 varieties, including chickpeas.
Actually I have the chickpea measure specifically....180g so you are right.
I did all this stuff quantitatively 15-20 years ago, for a software program.

[Nobody]

http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... ard-serves
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... kes#adults

RDI for men 19-50
serves group
6 veg and legumes
2 fruit
6 grains
3 protein
2.5 dairy
0-3 additional serves for taller or more active people.

...

Total = 1580 Calories

This is not enough for the average 70kg male...
Anyway, this highlights why i have issues with the guidelines.

https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-es ... erve-sizes
Using the same number of serves as above, but I used the govt sites for serving sizes (should be the same) and Cronometer, I put my SAD hat on and thought about what I used to eat and what I might eat if I knew nothing about the dangers of animal products. I got:
Breakfast:
125g dry oats (should be 375g of wet oats)
150g blueberries
1 cup milk

Lunch:
150g apple
4 thin slices of bread
100g tuna in oil, but drained
150g tomato
60g cheddar cheese

Dinner:
160g chicken breast
150g potato boiled
75g broccoli boiled
75g carrot boiled

This gave me 6 serves of veg, 2 serves of fruit, 6 serves of grain by 119.5 Cal/serve, 3 serves of protein, 2.5 serves of dairy.
Cronometer says 1932 Cal.

Although this might be fairly typical to maybe healthier omni diet, Cronometer said it was high in saturated fat and low in folate, vit B1, vit C, vit E, potassium, zinc, omega 3 fats and fibre.
One reason I eat so much fruit and veg is to make sure Cronometer doesn't indicate any deficiencies.

Grains are very much tied to activity levels. Are you sure you are interpreting your intake as 1/2 cups and not cups? i.e. 2 serves of grains a day is one cup of cooked rice.

As indicated above, I use the government's literal 500 kJ or 119.5 Cal. I only eat about 70g of dry oats a day. The rest is usually fruit, veg and nuts/seeds. It might approach 5 serves if I have rice too. But that is rare these days. As the late Harris indicated in a video, grains are lower in vitamins etc. I think Klaper also said he doesn't eat bread anymore. So for me, grains are mainly best for the extra fuel that I don't appear to need.

Re priority order, if I am constructing a Calorie restricted diet, I start with g/kg/day of protein required, then fruits and vege (minimum 8 'serves' vege and 2 fruit), then starch to make up whatever is left.

I'm getting about 1g/kg/day or more of protein. I found lower isn't enough for me. I'm now eating peas (150g/d) rather than beans for the lower Cal density (but about the same total Cal for the same protein intake). They seem OK so far, but still tend to increase my appetite for some reason.

I am also sceptical about including nuts and seeds as a protein source.
compare 1 serve of each (% of total Calories)
100g raw flesh = 22g protein per 150 Cals 59%
30g nuts and seeds = 5.5g protein per 182 Cals 12%
2 large eggs = 11g protein per 123 Cals 36%
170g tofu = 20g protein per 216 Cals 37%
1 Cup of cooked legumes = 15g protein per 216 Cals 28%

Agree. I don't consider them as a protein source with the small amounts I eat. Oats, peas, veg and bananas do better for me.

Which reminds me. I was in Aldi the other day buying about 3 to 4 kg of bananas and the checkout woman asks me if I was making a smoothie. No, I said I was going to eat them whole and said that was enough for two days (turns out it was 2 and a half days worth). Then she started on about "that's a lot of potassium and protein". I just said that we all make our choices, since I didn't want to get into it. I've had comments from other shoppers too. It seems you can't even go shopping without comments from people who can't mind their own business.

[Nobody]

FWIW, i don't rely on nuts as a protein source nearly so much as i rely on them as a fat source.

Same. Like most who are versed in plant nutrition.

Also, my satiety on nuts is very slow and very poor. I can eat 1000 calories of nuts in a sitting before my body starts to tell me that it's a bad idea to do so...

I tried 130 Cal yesterday in a sitting. My body told me that even that was a bad idea. But I'm not used to eating much fat.

[CKinnard]

Bananas are not especially high in potassium. That's such a myth. Normal potatoes have more per 100g and per Calorie. What a lot of people don't realize is how excess salt intake depletes potassium.

Nobody, not having a dig, but I think a lot of people consider talking about food, esp a cashier when there's food between you, safe territory for small chat. I think they'd understand it is an issue for a 150kg person buying coke and chocolate!

I often have the cashiers at my fruit and vege shops comment about what I am buying, how I am going to prepare it, what I am having it with. And you are never going to get anything other than Biggest loser level comments back from people. Most NEVER dig deeper to take personal responsibility. They just tend to trust the doctor, government, and biggest loser....not in that order though!

[Nobody]

Nobody, not having a dig, but I think a lot of people consider talking about food, esp a cashier when there's food between you, safe territory for small chat. I think they'd understand it is an issue for a 150kg person buying coke and chocolate!

It was OK until she took the "I'm a nutritionist" line. I've got that from so many people already that I just shut down the conversation now. In any case, there's no time in a Sydney Aldi checkout queue to give a meaningful reply. I've been through her checkout since with bananas without further comment.

They just tend to trust the doctor, government, and biggest loser....not in that order though!

Just a reflection of a SAD world when there's hardly anyone you can trust. And those that have proved trustworthy by their actions are often painted as having an agenda by deceptive opponents. I must admit it came as a surprise when I found out I couldn't really trust the medical establishment, most nutritionists/dietitians, or governments in dietary matters.

[CKinnard]

Just a reflection of a SAD world when there's hardly anyone you can trust. And those that have proved trustworthy by their actions are often painted as having an agenda by deceptive opponents. I must admit it came as a surprise when I found out I couldn't really trust the medical establishment, most nutritionists/dietitians, or governments in dietary matters.

Yes, well I came into the health care area after 13 years in international advertising agencies, and chronic illness with no diagnosis or cure.
It was a wake up call for me too, because I started to see the very real limits of health care knowledge, and practice.
Worse, I saw the disconnect between the way health care is promoted to the general public, and the calm authoritative reassurances given by govt, AMA, doctors, dietitians....which are WRONG!
And worse again, I saw the contemptuous small minded turf protecting egos controlling the whole show.
And each of those egos seems to wear blinkers to what's happening in a parallel field.

Nevertheless, some GPs are starting to join the dots. but few and far between.
I've been into the importance of nutrition since the early 70s when I got into Eastern philosophy and ayurveda, followed by various American natural hygienists and doctors, and Pritikin.
I still shake my head at the closed mind so many doctors have to the therapeutic benefits of a cleaner diet, weight loss, and fasting.
Some know about it, but only vaguely. They haven't made a study of it, and therefore don't have the passion or commitment to persuasively get convince their patients to change lifestyles.

I get sick of GP's retorts that what people determine with their free will to put in their mouths is not the business of medicine.
I can understand that and think it is partially true, but it is also partially false, once you comprehend the healing power of a nutrition based approach.

My problem is GPs don't like being shown up for where they might be lacking knowledge and clinical effectiveness.
So if I start spouting on to local GPs about a shared client, it's not long before their eyes glaze over.

[Nobody]

Interesting post.

I still shake my head at the closed mind so many doctors have to the therapeutic benefits of a cleaner diet, weight loss, and fasting.
Some know about it, but only vaguely. They haven't made a study of it, and therefore don't have the passion or commitment to persuasively convince their patients to change lifestyles.

My problem is GPs don't like being shown up for where they might be lacking knowledge and clinical effectiveness.
So if I start spouting on to local GPs about a shared client, it's not long before their eyes glaze over.

If there is one thing that seems to resonate with MDs the most, it's a lack of intellectual humility.

I get sick of GP's retorts that what people determine with their free will to put in their mouths is not the business of medicine.

It's a cop out IMO. If they can convince others that it's not their place to help, then their job is easier and more lucrative.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair

[CKinnard]

Yes Nobody, I often draw an analogy with compulsory vaccination.
Health authorities don't feel they have the right to control what people put in their mouths, but they are happy to mandate more invasive injections against an individual's will!

And before someone counters with studies unequivocally showing vaccination doesn't cause autism blah blah blah, let me add that obese people are many times more likely to be a vector for the transmission of infectious diseases due to a much higher level of compromised health, including immunity, as evident in the very much higher rate of sick leave taken by the obese.

So, if the government is consistent and serious about reducing infectious disease, they cannot turn a blind eye to the health issues caused by obesity. As I debated with someone a few weeks ago, obese people should be banned from working in child care and schools! Naturally, there's not many that accept let alone comprehend the association.

[CKinnard]

[Nobody]

Yes Nobody, I often draw an analogy with compulsory vaccination.
Health authorities don't feel they have the right to control what people put in their mouths, but they are happy to mandate more invasive injections against an individual's will!

Don't they just make childcare less affordable for the parents if they don't? I also heard that childcare centres in NSW can now refuse unimmunized children. So if you don't need childcare, you are still free to choose. Probably not too many like that with both parents usually working these days.

As I debated with someone a few weeks ago, obese people should be banned from working in child care and schools! Naturally, there's not many that accept let alone comprehend the association.

Not that this is ever likely due to equal employment opportunity etc, but even less likely at the moment. That's because there is a shortage of childcare workers in NSW since they changed the child ratio regulations. Having said that I heard that the Vic police force do have a maximum BMI specification of 27.5.

Thanks for posting that video CK. Interesting. I think Greger covered some of that before.
I often eat about 9 lb of food a day, which sometimes feels a bit much. I usually get about 15 serves of veg and 16 serves of fruit daily. So not far off the 20 serves of fruit they were talking about and it hasn't killed me yet.

[CKinnard]

Re the video, the other two meal plans, they were very low in f&v (less than 3-4 serves)....but I suppose represent what many people eat.

[CKinnard]

I am continuing on a low Cal diet. Have adapted very well to not eating until midday. Don't have cravings in the A.M. and my appetite is reducing. I am quite full on 1cup of legumes and 2-4 cups of salad/vege for lunch. Ran out of sweet potato a few days ago so no starch. I have 2-3 serves of fruit. Consistently getting under 800 Cals now, and requiring sleep early afternoon.

As mentioned before, I can feel state of my abdomen more so than when I was gaining weight. I can feel the excessive visceral fat. I think this has to do with entering a more relaxed mindset which allows the muscles to relax, blood to flow easier, and better sensory nerve relay of abdominal state. I think this is important because all the fat people I know don't feel particularly uncomfortable, swollen, overweight in the gut, even when they have a BMI over 40.

Naturally though, I tire easily when doing too much active stuff...so I've stopped riding for the time being.

[CKinnard]

Not that this is ever likely due to equal employment opportunity etc, but even less likely at the moment. That's because there is a shortage of childcare workers in NSW since they changed the child ratio regulations.

A large % of staff in child care are heavily overweight or obese. And many suffer with low back pain, and eventually have to move on to other work. The sick leave is amongst the highest of any sector.

Associated resources.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24351899
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v33/n ... 9121a.html
http://www.livescience.com/6819-obese-e ... leave.html

[mikesbytes]

Noticed at the supermarket that they were selling Oat milk along side Rice milk and Soya milk. I've seen some views on Soya milk but not the others. What are your views on these?

[CKinnard]

When compared to dairy milk, any of these is healthier.
Some taste sweeter than others which is due to how short the component oligosaccharides are.
It's a good idea if you don't eat a lot of animal produce to get a milk fortified with B12.

[mikesbytes]

What about the the difference between them?

[CKinnard]

I honestly don't think it matters Mike. Go with whatever flavor you prefer.
I stopped doing dairy flat whites about 6 years ago, changed to soy, didn't like it that much at first but it grew on me over 3 mths. I wouldn't drink a dairy coffee now because I don't like the taste.

Soy is the cheapest though. Aldi have it as a staple for $1.20 a liter from memory.
The other milks can be twice that.
Rice milk is sweeter but a nice flavor. Almond milk is a bit watery to me.

[Nobody]

What about the the difference between them?

Can I safely assume that the starter of a bacon appreciation thread isn't really concerned about which is healthiest?

Some are higher in fat than others. Rice milk is quite low in fat. I think almond is usually the highest. As for taste, I've heard good things about oat milk, especially on oats. But I haven't tried it myself.

As processed foods, they generally aren't the healthiest products and can have additives like sugar and oil. I don't have them anymore. Rather I choose to eat some oranges to bring my calcium up. Calcium supplements have been linked to heart attacks.

[mikesbytes]

Thanks for the feedback on them, its sounding like its as simple as looking at the nutritional labels, ie there isn't anything dodgy to be concerned about.

My milk intake is fairly low so a switch to another product would not make a huge difference to me.

I'm looking at them from the viewpoint of someone else who's issues are different to all of us.

[CKinnard]

Naturally, the ideal diet would be unproccessed stuff and water, with a few herb teas. keeping in mind what gorillas and chimps eat, and the longevity groups.
However, these milks are a good transition from dairy.
There's a lot of noise around about soy being dangerous for cancer, especially breast cancer because of its oestrogen like qualities.
However, this is absolutely unqualified. In fact, human studies show it may reduce breast and prostate cancer risk, and heart disease. Though such associations may be more due to the reduced dairy intake!
http://www.abc.net.au/health/talkinghea ... 017020.htm

[Nobody]

Interesting article is SMH today on a randomised controlled trial with people educated in a low fat WFPB diet and cooking, versus those who weren't.

...while the intervention group demonstrated "dramatic" improvements, with an average of 12.1 kilograms lost at the six-month follow-up and still a steady average of 11.5 kilograms lost at the 12-month mark.

I'm still 19 kg lighter after about 3.5 years, but my diet is most likely less processed and lower fat than most people on this style of diet. It's not because I started heavier. Their average BMI was 34.5 where mine was 27.4.

As for staying away from healthy fats, Wright says a little bit (no more than a handful of nuts a day, for instance) is OK but says it depends on a person's goals.

"Once someone is at a normal weight they can reintroduce these foods without too many problems. The problem arises when people think they are good for weight loss, due to some pretty shoddy science," he explains.

"There was one meta-analysis with nut consumption where they've claimed it helps with weight, but then in the small print they've stated it was using an energy-controlled diet."

That's my experience too. Eat fat, gain weight on this diet. I think Greger was conned with those nut studies saying people didn't gain weight. Some people can eat nuts and not gain weight (since there are people on the SAD doing the same), but I suspect the majority can't.

He also points to the work of Dr Dean Ornish and Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr, who have both found that a low-fat, plant-based diet may be able to reverse heart disease and other chronic diseases.

Wright adds: "This research supports the whole food plant-based diet as safe and effective. We had many significant findings, including weight loss, lowered cholesterol, less medication usage, decreased waist circumference, and increased quality of life, and this was without increased spending on food or changes to exercise levels. This dietary approach can enable people to feel empowered to improve their medical conditions, but can be used outside of this setting too."

Study:
http://www.nature.com/nutd/journal/v7/n ... 0173a.html

[mikesbytes]

At the supermarket you can see a relationship between what's in their trolley and how fat they are. I could probably categorise a high percentage of people into 3 basic categories;
- Do know and do care
- Don't know and do care
- Don't care
The ones that don't know and do care go thru the battle field of reading the nutritional labels on the food and comparing products from different manufacturers. They have stepped on to the path but have a long way to go. The do know people have woken up to that's its a lot more simple than that, simply don't buy manufactured foods, purchase the ingredients and be in control. The don't care group is the biggest of the groups (pun intended)

[RhapsodyX]

Looks like the paleo people are far closer to the truth about ancient diets than the vegans.

But selection pressure means they are wrong about modern man. But so are the vegans.