Plant Based Diet Thread

[Nobody]

I like Doug, but he is definitely a data driven sensate. Intuitive driven he is not.

I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I prefer to be data driven if possible.

Interestingly, the fatso's used to always be walking into the kitchen to ask the chef for avo.

Would they get the avocado if they asked for it, or was it a bit more controlled?
Doug said something about nuts being left out with a scale. Is this also the case?

I think if you have been grossly overweight, Doug is not the best person to talk to as he has no personal experience with the cravings that take people down that path. Doug is psychologically and physically atypical.

To use a somatotype, he looks more ectomorphic.

AJ has a more relate-able life history for ppl who have struggled with weight, as do I!!!!

Can't say I'm one, since I've demonstrated that I can lose weight quite easily. But with the wrong food I can also put on weight easily.

[Nobody]

Got an interesting set of blood test results today.

The good:

- hsCRP back down to 0.4

- Iron studies ferritin had hardly moved in 6 months (89 to 91) with a single bleed between tests, while saturation was still within limits. The nurse called the specialist for the first time to make sure I should still be bled.
If I try a bit harder (which I'm doing) I might be able to almost cure the symptoms with just diet, while doing the same amount of exercise.

The bad:

- Although most markers had either improved or stayed static, ALT was up a bit. Still well within limits, but something for me to watch. I suppose it could be related to the following problem.

- RCC and protein were both just below limits, suggesting I've taken protein reduction a bit far, even though diet tracking doesn't say so.

Some non-vegans can now cheer. You've now finally found a vegan with a protein deficiency!
But not for long.

There are also the usual low urea and high MCH, which don't mean anything for me.

All the results:

[CKinnard]

N, as long as creatinine is normal, low urea is cool. it's most likely down because total protein is down.
low albumin should be tracked. could be a diet OR absorption issue.

read up on ALT. it is not produced solely by the liver. it comes from damaged muscle too. if you did a heavier ride in the previous 2 days, it is possible ALT could be up. I'd suggest you not exercise strenuously for at least 3 days before a blood test. stay nice and calm and relaxed. that will help maintain a reasonable baseline for each test.

[Nobody]

N, as long as creatinine is normal, low urea is cool. it's most likely down because total protein is down.
low albumin should be tracked. could be a diet OR absorption issue.

Low B12 in the past and now low protein are pointing to an absorption issue. In both cases I'm supposed to be getting enough of each. Maybe I've got low stomach acidity. Nothing I can do about it, even if I have. Just good to be aware of my individual problems. That's why it's worthwhile to get regular blood tests if one gets particularly restrictive about their diet. I can't fix potential problems that I can't see. Actually I think it's worthwhile for everyone to get yearly blood tests to screen for the possible issues like vitamin D, glucose, hsCRP, homocysteine, etc.

read up on ALT. it is not produced solely by the liver. it comes from damaged muscle too. if you did a heavier ride in the previous 2 days, it is possible ALT could be up. I'd suggest you not exercise strenuously for at least 3 days before a blood test. stay nice and calm and relaxed. that will help maintain a reasonable baseline for each test.

OK, thanks.
I did a training ride 2 days before with intervals. I thought 2 days would be enough, but maybe not.
Maybe a lack of protein is slowing recovery too. I haven't been feeling that strong on the bike lately, but put it down to my light weight. I might add some kidney beans back tomorrow to see what happens. It should blow out my WHtR, but that's life I suppose. I need to put overall health above chasing health markers. I'll probably get another biochemistry done next month after upping the protein and give myself 3 days rest before, to see if it makes a difference to ALT.

Getting all this right has been a bit of a juggle for me over the past 3 years. But I hope to get the balance right in the end and hopefully help others in the process by this record.

[Nobody]

I haven't posted this guy's videos before because I won't post videos with poor language, as per the rules of these forums.

I don't agree with everything he says in this video. Particularly the bits about reversing chronic diseases by Esselstyn and Barnard. I would want to have proof before I started saying what he does. But he's young, so he comes across that way. In other words, a bit more strong on opinion and more "black & white" than older people often do. Nonetheless I agree with his overall message.
He's a nutrition professional that works in the field of trying to help people off bad diets in the UK. So he has the perspective of hearing what his clients are thinking in regard to diet change and the messages they perceive from the internet.

[CKinnard]

I like Doug, but he is definitely a data driven sensate. Intuitive driven he is not.

I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I prefer to be data driven if possible.

Interestingly, the fatso's used to always be walking into the kitchen to ask the chef for avo.

Would they get the avocado if they asked for it, or was it a bit more controlled?
Doug said something about nuts being left out with a scale. Is this also the case?

Data driven is appropriate in many circumstances, as long as you realize data has not been produced on every phenomena significant to human health and longevity. If it had, scientists could pack up and go home. At some stage, you have to flesh out the data skeleton with non-data!

Re avos, from what I saw you had to walk into the kitchen and ask for avos, otherwise they were only put out 1-2 times a week.
And when asked for, they averaged being available 6/10 times! It's important to realize overweight people have an abnormal preference for fatty foods, despite the excess of fat they carry around. It wreaks of them having issues mobilizing fat reserves as a preferred energy source.

Nuts and seeds were left out in dishes 24/7. Hard to tell if anyone got stuck into them because the dishes were constantly refilled. I didn't really see ppl piling them on their plates either. What TN proved to me is that there is a set point that can be reached where our appetite does definitely calm down and we can thrive by primarily consuming fat reserves. It happened to me and many others there, even some very obese people. After around 1 week of smashing salad and vege, they'd progressively load their plates less and less.

What bugged me however was the large number of people who stacked a plate, then didn't eat most of it, so it would have to be binned. Really poor form.

[CKinnard]

I haven't posted this guy's videos before because I won't post videos with poor language, as per the rules of these forums.

Never heard of him before, but just watched a few of his vids and read his about stuff. I like him. He's had a very full life (of highs and lows), comes from a medical family, is highly logical and balanced in his advice, communicates extremely well, and appears to have a very good grasp of where current nutritional literature is. Power to him!

[Nobody]

Thanks for the reply CK.

At some stage, you have to flesh out the data skeleton with non-data!

True. Obviously I've already done this enough to believe that eating fish isn't going to improve my health, as long as I sort out my plant fat ratios correctly. That's despite what any Aventist study say about pescetarians having lower mortality.

It wreaks of them having issues mobilizing fat reserves as a preferred energy source.

So this reads like they crave fat because they can't easily process their own for whatever reason. Is that what you meant?

Nuts and seeds were left out in dishes 24/7. Hard to tell if anyone got stuck into them because the dishes were constantly refilled. I didn't really see ppl piling them on their plates either.

Was there a scale there with the nuts?

What bugged me however was the large number of people who stacked a plate, then didn't eat most of it, so it would have to be binned. Really poor form.

Hopefully it got composted or given away as farm food rather than totally wasted in land fill.

[CKinnard]

I did a training ride 2 days before with intervals. I thought 2 days would be enough, but maybe not.
Maybe a lack of protein is slowing recovery too. I haven't been feeling that strong on the bike lately, but put it down to my light weight. I might add some kidney beans back tomorrow to see what happens. It should blow out my WHtR, but that's life I suppose. I need to put overall health above chasing health markers. I'll probably get another biochemistry done next month after upping the protein and give myself 3 days rest before, to see if it makes a difference to ALT.

I just did a search for transaminase levels and exercise. I hadn't realized levels could be elevated for as long as a week, but that's the word!
Muscle trauma drives it so it is more pronounced with resistance rather than endurance loads.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104191/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291230/

[Nobody]

I just did a search for transaminase levels and exercise. I hadn't realized levels could be elevated for as long as a week, but that's the word!
Muscle trauma drives it so it is more pronounced with resistance rather than endurance loads.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104191/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291230/

Thanks.

I may update this post further later, but I just had a look at the first link and found the following:

G&H Do ALT and AST react to hepatic and muscular inflammation similarly?

MS Basically, the reaction between the two is similar. Again, there is a ratio that in healthy individuals is considered normal. AST levels normally measure at approximately 0.8 of ALT levels. A dysregularity of this ratio can also signal hepatic illness but usually inflammation of any kind affects both measures.

Currently my AST of 22 has a ratio of 0.88 of the ALT being 25, which is about right. Maybe it's OK now. Originally when diagnosed in Sept 2014 with haem, with an AST of 33 which was 0.8 of ALT at 41. So the original ratio was OK, then all 5 reading from Nov 2014 to June 2016 were strange and now the ratio is normal again. My diet has changed since June with a lot more veg now, from your advice. Don't know what to think now. I still should get another reading in Jan to confirm though.

But I'm probably not going to stop dead lifting for a week before hand. I'll mainly be looking to see if the ratio is still the same. I want to get some other tests at the same time. So it's not a burden to get this checked again.

[CKinnard]

Thanks for the reply CK.

At some stage, you have to flesh out the data skeleton with non-data!

True. Obviously I've already done this enough to believe that eating fish isn't going to improve my health, as long as I sort out my plant fat ratios correctly. That's despite what any Aventist study say about pescetarians having lower mortality.

It wreaks of them having issues mobilizing fat reserves as a preferred energy source.

So this reads like they crave fat because they can't easily process their own for whatever reason. Is that what you meant?

re fish vs vegan, fleshing out the data skeleton could easily be shown to give vegans the longevity and low morbidity advantage, but I can't take that angle professionally! which is why I promote a small amount of fish to clients who are not already sold on veganism. at least I have the SDA and Blue Zone data to back myself in a court of law.

re fat, I'd like to see more elaboration of what happens to fat mobilization and metabolism in those who struggle with weight.
All the emphasis is put on irregular sugar metabolism. It seems there's a case to make that some ppl struggle to kick over into ketosis.
Ketosis is a very sensitive state to maintain, especially when even small amounts of sugar/carbs are included in the diet.

[Nobody]

re fat, I'd like to see more elaboration of what happens to fat mobilization and metabolism in those who struggle with weight.
All the emphasis is put on irregular sugar metabolism. It seems there's a case to make that some ppl struggle to kick over into ketosis.
Ketosis is a very sensitive state to maintain, especially when even small amounts of sugar/carbs are included in the diet.

From a fasting viewpoint, I understand the interest in ketosis. But I think that otherwise there may be too much emphasis out there on ketosis, considering I lost about 26% of my body weight without using it.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm posting the video below as proof that what I've been saying about (at least some people's) bodies chasing calories before food weight and volume over the long term, is true. AJ has a similar diet to me and although she says at about 02:00 that the average person eats 3 to 5 pounds of food a day, she goes on to contradict herself about 1 minute later by saying she eats 7 to 10 pounds of food a day. Which is about what I also eat a day.


What I've also found is that as calorie density goes down, so the number of calories needed goes up, showing absorption is getting lower. If I eat a large amount of fruit in a day, I can find myself eating well in excess of 3000 Cal, yet I won't necessarily put on weight (that I know of) either.

So what I get from all this is that the mechanism by which we lose weight on this style of diet is by taking the body closer to the limit of what it can process or absorb in a day. Since even when used to the change, it's difficult for the body to physically process more than 10 pounds (4.5 kg) of food a day (for smaller people anyway). That is also probably why the weight loss change is permanent, since the body seems to only be able to adjust so far in this regard. Also with natural whole foods there are probably a number of processes that we may be unaware of that help us to stay at a healthy weight.
Where it appears with long term modern paleo style eaters that the body can adapt easier over the long term to absorb more calories.

Meanwhile most people on western diets are progressively moving in the other direction to higher density, more processed (pre-digested) and insulin spiking foods which are extremely easy for the body to absorb. On top of that they appear to be eating quite often with snacking and/or drinking calories.


On a personal dietary note; I've added beans back into my diet, but taken a different approach this time. I'll be interested to see how much my waist increases. Visceral fat is bound to increase, just the amount is the only unknown.

[CKinnard]

I was at a brekky this morning with a bunch of people, of whom ~30% were significantly overweight. It was interesting watching everyone filling their plate. It's certainly true that heavier people go for the denser food based on watching what everyone brought and put on their plates.

I also lost 20% of my bodyweight on a Calorie restricted diet, in 20 weeks. It wasn't low fat, it was just a Calorie controlled, with heaps of vege.

Nevertheless, my TN time showed it's possible to feel sated eating nothing, or 500 Cals/day, after years of struggling with excessive cravings.

I intuit it isn't all about sugar blocking fat metabolism, but something's also wrong with fat metab.

[Nobody]

Nevertheless, my TN time showed it's possible to feel sated eating nothing, or 500 Cals/day, after years of struggling with excessive cravings.

I only do intermittent feeding from time to time and then only to a minor degree. Other than 18g of nuts last night before bed, this feeding break has been 16 hours.
These days I find I have two defined stages of hunger/satiation. One stage appears to be the period when food is being eaten within a couple of hours after eating and the other period being all other times. During feeding times I can get quite hungry, which starts once I start eating. After say 2 hours from my last meal my body settles into the other mode which doesn't seem to need food until I eat again. These modes depend on how much I ate yesterday and how much I've eaten for the day. If I haven't eaten enough for the day, I may still have a faint lingering hunger, which fades further in the late evening. The more exercise I do, generally the lower the hunger.

I intuit it isn't all about sugar blocking fat metabolism, but something's also wrong with fat metab.

Maybe because they are always pushing food into the system every so many hours, their bodies aren't really used to having to run on any type of reserves (other than when sleeping) to fuel the day's activities. Like others, I've found the more I stress the system, the better it works over the longer term.

[CKinnard]

The lipocentric view on development of metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/424459_2

Of course, this flies in the face of the sugar is the source of all evil brigade.

[Nobody]

The lipocentric view on development of metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/424459_2

Of course, this flies in the face of the sugar is the source of all evil brigade.

Thanks for posting it. Interesting. By comparison with this article, Greger's videos and even Barnard's book on the subject are easy to grasp. I've been reading a bit at a time and I'm probably about half way through.

What I get from it so far is that they can duplicate a condition of raised free fatty acids in the blood in normal people to make them more insulin resistant. Therefore proving the causal condition of insulin resistance.

[CKinnard]

Yes, I've never read deeply into how fat compromises insulin. I've just accepted Barnard's simple answers that excess fat can block insulin receptors on muscle cell membranes, thereby causing insulin resistance.

While at TN, I read about GPR43, a fat cell receptor specific for the SCFA proprionate. It selectively makes fat cells insulin resistant, which not only inhibits glucose uptake, but also fat. This makes it harder for the body to store dietary fat in fat cells....and may be one of the mechanisms that result in variance in people gaining weight when overeating sporadically, or consistently. You might recall that proprionate levels are higher with a very high PBWF diet as it is healthy gut bacteria that produce it in large amounts.
So those who have a microbiome conditioned to PBWF may have an additional advantage in resisting weight gain.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23652017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24926285
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25274213

[Nobody]

While at TN, I read about GPR43...and may be one of the mechanisms that result in variance in people gaining weight when overeating sporadically, or consistently...So those who have a microbiome conditioned to PBWF may have an additional advantage in resisting weight gain.

Yes, there are probably many reasons why approaching the ideal diet for humans is slimming. Micobiome probably being a large part of that. Since on paper, what many eat in Cal, volume, weight etc, versus what they weigh seems to defy logic somewhat otherwise.

[CKinnard]

BTW, as you know I got into the wine somewhat when I got back from the US. about 6 weeks after I got back, the weight was starting to come back. I appreciate we all have different triggers and thresholds, but for me I think alcohol and over-exercising dysregulate my appetite. Anyway, I stopped drinking early October, and rarely even think about booze now. I can look at others drinking, and am not enticed one bit. What used to be a very strong urge, has totally gone.

I also started to crave sugars and salt after getting off a cleaner diet. But despite many goes at pulling back from that, it wasn't until about 3-4 weeks ago that I felt my appetite change dramatically. In that time, I get stuffed full by eating no more than 1200 Cals on sedentary days, and 1500 on ride days. I also have no cravings for snacks or chocolates. I've been through this before and am slowly getting to understand why I can suddenly not crave the wrong foods and too much of the healthy sort. For me, it is very much a mixture of having all bases covered. If I have good social and family relations, and good food in the house, and things are kicking along professionally, then that seems to be the foundation for turning off inappropriate appetite, and having no trouble sticking with very clean PBWF.

So I am back on my way to a sub 22 BMI

Out of left field, if you could measure your bodyfat with hydrostatic weighing (underwater weighing) conveniently every 1-2 months, what would you be prepared to pay for it? I am costing up extended services in a clinic at the moment, and seriously considering this service. (I can build my own weighing unit for less than $1000.) I know DEXA is considered the most accurate, but it is not significantly more accurate than well controlled hydro.

[Nobody]

Anyway, I stopped drinking early October, and rarely even think about booze now. I can look at others drinking, and am not enticed one bit. What used to be a very strong urge, has totally gone.

I'm the same with food. My family eats junk all around me. But it doesn't really tempt me. Most of the time they might as well be eating cardboard for all I care.

But despite many goes at pulling back from that, it wasn't until about 3-4 weeks ago that I felt my appetite change dramatically. In that time, I get stuffed full by eating no more than 1200 Cals on sedentary days, and 1500 on ride days...and having no trouble sticking with very clean PBWF...So I am back on my way to a sub 22 BMI

Good for you. You should get there fast on that meager calorie intake.

Out of left field, if you could measure your bodyfat with hydrostatic weighing (underwater weighing) conveniently every 1-2 months, what would you be prepared to pay for it? I am costing up extended services in a clinic at the moment, and seriously considering this service. (I can build my own weighing unit for less than $1000.) I know DEXA is considered the most accurate, but it is not significantly more accurate than well controlled hydro.

Good question.
The place below charges $40 USD. I'd probably pay that if it was local and I was interested in getting more official numbers to show off with (more than I already do ).
http://www.unomaha.edu/news/2016/12/und ... y-sale.php
I'd say there's a market for it as many of the same type of people that are interested enough in health to get this type of weighing done should be the same type of people that don't want to expose themselves to x-rays just to get a measurement.

I'm not that convinced any of the measurement methods are accurate enough to really matter to me. So at the moment I settle for tape measurements and my appearance in the mirror. I think most of the market is probably in people in a larger state of flux, like that Spud Fit guy.
I've sent you a PM of a video about it that I'd rather not post here.

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

Spud Fit / Andrew Taylor did a blog on food addiction recently.
http://www.spudfit.com/single-post/2016 ... e-and-pain

While on his site I thought about whether I would ever try a mostly sweet potato & potato diet (since he still ate condiments with them). So I did a spreadsheet with mainly sweet potato and potatoes, along with some onion and tomato paste for flavor which didn't significantly effect the diet's makeup. The results are below.



As can be seen, the major problem with the diet - besides is the lack of essential fats, of which negative health effects are debate-able - is the high omega 6 to 3 ratio at about 10. My understanding of this is that this causes inflammation. Whether the rest of the diet can compensate for this inflammation would be unknown until I tried it for some time. Adding 7g of linseed would fix the that imbalance problem though.

I checked it against my current diet and I should lose weight on it since the calorie density is only slightly higher, but it's much lower in fat and a bit in protein. Plus potato is very satiating per calorie. Not that weight loss is the only important criteria to judge a diet, but it was interesting to compare.

[CKinnard]

I think I have commented on Andrew before. His experiment doesn't prove much at all.
Decades of scientific research shows his diet would be inadequate over time for the majority of people, and I think John McDougall needs to pull his head in offering support of such things.

I met a doctor many years ago who conveyed that many healthy babies were born during world war II when their mothers ate nothing else other than condensed milk from the can. Does this mean that's a healthy diet?

Andrew needs to clarify what his mission was - to lose weight comfortably, or to identify a diet that sustains optimal health preferably for life. But he shouldn't confuse the two.

If his doctor was top shelf, he'd have ensured Andrew have much more comprehensive testing before and after. i.e. vision and hearing test, nutrition profiles via blood and hair analysis .

[Nobody]

Decades of scientific research shows his diet would be inadequate over time for the majority of people..

Tend to agree. I've already had some deficiencies or been close to deficiency according to blood tests and I couldn't see myself (at my age) surviving well on that level of fat, long term. I could be wrong, but I'm not willing to test it out.

...and I think John McDougall needs to pull his head in offering support of such things.

McDougall obviously has his own agenda. I'm sure McDougall believes he's following the absolute right path. Probably because he hasn't seen much in the way of deficiency symptoms in his circles. But maybe that's because he's not looking for it hard enough too.
I am yet to be convinced that the level of omega-3 fat in Taylor's potato diet is good for long term brain health (especially if male and getting older like me), amongst other reservations. I'm not totally convinced the level I eat now is good until I get a blood test for omega-3 index.

HHV just released a video on omega-3.


I already supplement with linseed, B12 and zinc. I'm probably going to supplement vitamin D3 this winter and also with EPA & DHA if the test comes back marginal or worse.

Andrew needs to clarify what his mission was - to lose weight comfortably, or to identify a diet that sustains optimal health preferably for life. But he shouldn't confuse the two.

I think he's leaning heavily to the former with a food addiction cure angle. Which he's selling in the form of a book.

A how-to guide to tackling food addiction with the humble spud.

Is 'quitting food' the key to losing 106 pounds (48kgs) in eight months, beating clinical depression and anxiety and discovering the best mental and physical health of your life? For Andrew 'Spud Fit' Taylor, the Aussie father who embarked on a potato-only diet for the entirety of 2016, this has certainly been the case. In this Spud Fit Challenge DIY guide, featuring twelve super simple (and cheap!) recipes and a variety of mindfulness techniques to help you reset your body and mind, he shows you the how's, what's and why's of his unusual regime - the tale of which went viral and captivated people across the globe.

He may be placing some people that don't know any better at risk of longer term deficiencies. I just hope that his book advises to supplement with enough B12. Since my "Active B12" got down to 39 with a minimum of 35 while still supplementing 1000mcg about 3 times a week, before I upped the dose to daily. IMO McDougall's recommendation of weekly B12 supplementation is too low to cover everyone. The recommendation should be to get regular blood tests and make an assessment from that.

If his doctor was top shelf, he'd have ensured Andrew have much more comprehensive testing before and after. i.e. vision and hearing test, nutrition profiles via blood and hair analysis .

Agree. From what I saw of a blood test video of his, it didn't look too well organised.

It would have been better if he started with a battery of tests and specified a set diet for the whole year. Then had the same battery of tests at the end. The impression I got from the videos was vague in regard to testing and specifications of diet.
Having said that, I didn't get any tests done initially either. But then I didn't even know if I would still be eating this way in 3 weeks time, let alone 3 years+ time. But then if we knew our future for certain - even a day in advance - we would be much better off.