Plant Based Diet Thread

[CKinnard]

I think medicine could be so much better delivered today. The science is there but the will, systems, and cost benefit analysis not. We could all be getting better blood profiling and tailoring nutrition advice based on that.

I tried to do something similar with musculoskeletal health for the general public. It was essentially using full body MRI to guide people on how to avoid progressing already worn joints, and optimizing exercise regimes to get more mileage out of their bodies. I had difficulty getting several radiologists onto the same page with this, even though they would benefit financially. Their view was it is outside current scope of health care and may raise the ire of Medicare. This is despite me reinforcing multiple times that there was no Medicare rebate involved. Clients were all paying privately 100%. It takes a lot of energy to be a trail blazer, especially when it involves the cooperation of conservative (and arrogant) minded.

[Nobody]

I think medicine could be so much better delivered today. The science is there but the will, systems, and cost benefit analysis not. We could all be getting better blood profiling and tailoring nutrition advice based on that.

Yes it could be, but vested interests and greed will probably prevent it. As you well know, if the medical industry got better results under the current pay for procedure structure, the added efficiency would mean lower pay for medical industry workers. Unfortunately some industries thrive on inefficiency.

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...my "Active B12" got down to 39 with a minimum of 35 while still supplementing 1000 mcg about 3 times a week, before I upped the dose to daily. IMO McDougall's recommendation of weekly B12 supplementation is too low to cover everyone. The recommendation should be to get regular blood tests and make an assessment from that.

Further to this, on page 169 of "The Starch Solution" it recommends methyl B12 of 500 mcg or more pill, weekly. I tried this and it didn't work. So I changed brands and upped the dose to 3 times a week, but still had lowering B12 levels. A daily dose worked well, which I was prompted to do when I noticed I was starting to get tingling in my toes.
Below is a link which shows you probably need at least 1000 mcg daily, and 1500 would be preferable.
http://jacknorrisrd.com/clinical-trial- ... cobalamin/

Cyano B12 requires lower doses and is cheaper. But McDougall says methyl works better for neurological problems.

While seaching for the reference McDougall uses to back his claim of why methyl is better, I came across the link below which suggests that two different forms of B12 are needed by the body to avoid both forms of deficiency (if I read it right) which are methyl and adenosyl. Further digging reveals that for most people, methyl will be converted to adenosyl adequately anyway.

The video below describes the 4 types of B12.
https://seekinghealth.org/resource/4-fo ... tamin-b12/

Study abstract that said both are required.
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v69/ ... 4165a.html

Link that says methyl and be converted to adenosyl adequately by most bodies.
http://veganhealth.org/b12/noncyanob12

A long winded video (which I link starting at 39 min 30 sec) describing B12 absorption and types, foods etc.
https://youtu.be/C4CuwUV0k20?t=39m30s

NIH B12 facts sheet.
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitam ... fessional/

So from all that above I think I'll stay with methyl, but the 1000 mcg a day may be just scraping by. So I may consider finding a slightly higher dose for my next purchase, or taking it twice daily to see if I notice a difference. I'm currently using this one.

[Nobody]

I found the part at 38 minutes particularly interesting where David talks about legumes and that not all calories are equal. I'm still eating the beans this month with some days being more than 300g per day. I'm personally expecting to gain weight and increase waist size, but I'll see what happens.



I'm currently taking linseed, B12 and zinc. There is a good chance I'll be taking vit D this winter too.

[CKinnard]

Gee, I wish Will would have prepared better for the interview. If you know you have isssues articulating, then pre-write the questions! Makes for better viewing. Nevertheless, some good ground covered.

I spent a lot of time with David at TN. He is the most knowledgeable dietitian I've ever engaged, and that includes at least 8 AIS sports dietitians. I'd also rate him as one of the top 3 vegan dietitians in the world currently. We discussed dozens of finer points of physiology and nutrition, and I think we might have disagreed twice! When I left TN David was eating about 4000 Calories a day as he was trying to bulk up for a strength competition. I was surprised at how flabby he got in a few weeks (as in pile on the fat). My view is bulking shouldn't comprise anymore than 250-500 Calories a day above estimated eucaloric needs. Increasing one's bodyfat % significantly in order to increase muscle mass puts unnecessary strain on the digestive, metabolic, and excretory systems, let alone vasculature.

[Nobody]

When I left TN David was eating about 4000 Calories a day as he was trying to bulk up for a strength competition. I was surprised at how flabby he got in a few weeks (as in pile on the fat).

Strength competitions seem like a pointless exercise to me since it usually comes down to a combination of genetics and 'roids/PEDs (training being equal). I'd rather be lean than buff. But I'm probably in a different stage of life and doing an endurance sport.

[march83]

I'm currently taking linseed, B12 and zinc. There is a good chance I'll be taking vit D this winter too.

zinc - OMGosh, my libido tanked until i started supping zinc. I think i also need periods of higher dietary fat, protein and possibly calorie (i've been intentionally low in all 3 for the past few months) to support.

what's the use case for linseed? o3/o6?

[Nobody]

what's the use case for linseed? o3/o6?

As you may already know, Linseed has one of the highest levels of omega-3 (ALA) in a plant food. It is supposed to vastly improve the omega 6:3 ratio which can be as high as 15:1 for those not supplementing on a plant food diet, down to < 4:1 for those who do. It is supposed to reduce inflammation.

ALA is also necessary to convert into the essential fats EPA and DHA. However some (usually older males) won't convert it as well. For them an EPA/DHA supplement is recommended by some experts, while others say it's unnecessary, or even a scam. I want to get my omega-3 index tested soon. If mine is below 4%, I'll likely supplement algae derived EPA/DHA. It's still a grey area since there is not a great enough body of research to say whether harm is being done by having very low blood DHA levels.

[Nobody]

From 17th Dec

On a personal dietary note; I've added beans back into my diet, but taken a different approach this time. I'll be interested to see how much my waist increases. Visceral fat is bound to increase, just the amount is the only unknown.

Post from the Loser Club thread today:

9 days since last measurement.

Waist 75.0 cm, WHtR 0.434
Up 1.5 (0.17cm/d)

62.3 kg, BMI 20.8
Up 0.9 (100g/d)

Well I've already gone past my yearly maintenance goal of 0.43. Weight is still trailing waist, so if I keep on this course I expect it to keep climbing too...

I was almost certain the experiment would go the way it has. But I still need some legumes for their protein, so I'll have to reduce the amount and try to find a balance I'm happier with. Currently eating about 300+ g/d of kidney beans. Probably bring that back to about 100 g/d in time. Either that, and/or try to increase my protein from other (lesser) sources like broccoli.

[CKinnard]

I was almost certain the experiment would go the way it has. But I still need some legumes for their protein, so I'll have to reduce the amount and try to find a balance I'm happier with. Currently eating about 300+ g/d of kidney beans. Probably bring that back to about 100 g/d in time. Either that, and/or try to increase my protein from other (lesser) sources like broccoli.

What did the beans replace in your diet, and how certain are you the change was eucaloric?

Have you considered your waist circumference increase may not be all visceral fat increase, but due to changes in intestinal gas or fiber?
You may even have increased your microbiome mass.

[Nobody]

Thanks for the reply CK.

What did the beans replace in your diet, and how certain are you the change was eucaloric?

I wasn't tracking hard at that time, but it looks to be additive.
From my spreadsheet, 300 g/d:
Incl fibre 101 Cal/100g = 303 Cal.
No fibre 73 Cal/100g = 219 Cal.
So at 9 Cal/g of added fat:
301/9 = 34 g
219/9 = 24 g

Not only are the beans pressure cooked, so almost pre-digested (high absorption) but I think they must be stimulating appetite. Whenever I've added other foods to my diet, I still let hunger dictate satiation, so usually an eucaloric balance of kinds is restored. This has worked in the past, but it doesn't appear to happen with beans. It's not only additive, but appears to be hunger stimulating. I seem to put on more weight than the beans should even add. That's why I think I'll move more to broccoli with just 100g of beans before my next blood test and see how I go with that. Either that, or figure out a way to change the intake timing that is less hunger stimulating. It seems to be an individual problem for me.

I may get my blood tests done sooner after exercise to see what the blood protein gap is really like.

Have you considered your waist circumference increase may not be all visceral fat increase, but due to changes in intestinal gas or fiber?
You may even have increased your microbiome mass.

Yes, true and I have considered it. But from looking in the mirror, my subcutaneous fat appears to be getting thicker around my middle though.

As much as this experiment was interesting, it takes me months to lose what I can gain in weeks. So I'll wind it back before my waist blows out further.

[CKinnard]

If you want to pull all the tricks out of the bag to reach satiation on less Cals, recall:
- relax before meals for 5-10 minutes, or do a bit of light exercise to get fatty acids mobilized more so. Going straight from moderately stressful sedentary work to a main meal can result in overeating.
- drink at least 500mls before meals.
- eat slower and preferably in a social setting so you can converse between mouthfuls!
- increase the portion of raw food on your plate. i.e. more salad and less steamed vege. raw broccoli not cooked, raw spinach and lettuce rather than steamed.
- add a little fruit to your salads to help ease sweet cravings that often kick in after a meal.
- avoid fatty plant foods (avocado,
- consider the TN philosophy and avoid salt, sugars, added fat. make salads nicer by adding vinegars and citrus juices.
- to bed earlier (before 9:30p if arising at 6-7am)

[Nobody]

If you want to pull all the tricks out of the bag to reach satiation on less Cals, recall:
- relax before meals for 5-10 minutes, or do a bit of light exercise to get fatty acids mobilized more so. Going straight from moderately stressful sedentary work to a main meal can result in overeating.
- drink at least 500mls before meals.
- eat slower and preferably in a social setting so you can converse between mouthfuls!
- increase the portion of raw food on your plate. i.e. more salad and less steamed vege. raw broccoli not cooked, raw spinach and lettuce rather than steamed.
- add a little fruit to your salads to help ease sweet cravings that often kick in after a meal.
- avoid fatty plant foods (avocado,
- consider the TN philosophy and avoid salt, sugars, added fat. make salads nicer by adding vinegars and citrus juices.
- to bed earlier (before 9:30p if arising at 6-7am)

Interesting. Thanks for the pointers. I'll try to keep mindful of them.

Don't eat avocado, salt, sugar and have only had the minimum of nuts & seeds. 10g linseed, a brazil nut and 11 almonds at most. I've just cut back to the 10g linseed and a brazil as of today for a while.

[CKinnard]

Yet another one for cherry picking Paleos to ponder, after they brush up on chylomicrons, triglycerides, VLDL, IDL, LDL, and their contribution to atherosclerosis.

[Nobody]

I must be stressed out.

[CKinnard]

I find this girl interesting. She is projecting educated intellectually rigorous serious type, with the well groomed and dressed look, and the oversized glasses....and just the right amount of insouciance in tone and deliberated delivery.

Nevertheless, when you drill down into why she thinks this study is worth considering it's because her experience with a low fat vegan diet is that she can eat without restriction and monitoring, and lose weight....and that whenever she has counted/monitored Calories, she gets stressed!

The holes in her perspective are:
- Calorie monitoring isn't necessary on a Calorie restricted diet. The study demonstrated that with the group who were GIVEN a 1200 Cal diet prepared by someone else. This is called a prescriptive diet, and is readily accessible via Lite n Easy, Jenny Craig, and similar, in addition to some dietitians (though dietitians prefer to give non prescriptive diet advice, as in educate you about general/vague portions required).
- Just because she can eat without restriction on a low fat vegan diet, and lose weight, that doesn't transfer to everyone else i.e. Andrew Perlot and many others proved that trying to follow Durian Rider's advice. She is still young. Invariably, middle aged and older people who have weight issues do need to restrict their portions until such time as inappropriate cravings dissipate, even on low fat vegan. This can be as little as 2 weeks but is rarely longer than 3 months.

My view is stress has a lot to do with inappropriate cravings. I've seen people lose weight time and again, and cruise along nicely not gaining weight until some life stressor disrupts the psychoneuroendocrine soup.

Anyway, I think until populist media 'educate' the masses into realizing stress and maladaptive lifestyle impact food choices powerfully, many won't make progress who otherwise might.

[Nobody]

Double post

[Nobody]

The holes in her perspective are:
- Calorie monitoring isn't necessary on a Calorie restricted diet. The study demonstrated that with the group who were GIVEN a 1200 Cal diet prepared by someone else. This is called a prescriptive diet, and is readily accessible via Lite n Easy, Jenny Craig, and similar, in addition to some dietitians (though dietitians prefer to give non prescriptive diet advice, as in educate you about general/vague portions required).

Calorie restricted or prescriptive diets obviously work, at least for the short term. But long term adherence appears to be poor. I noticed there is an actor on the AU TV soap Neighbours that was the face of Lite n Easy (I think) for a while. He was reasonably slim at one stage, but years later it's obvious his weight has ballooned out again. Oprah and Kirstie Alley are some other faces of weight loss companies that struggles with stability after these diets. Either they didn't learn enough (which is expected) and/or the commitment gets worn down over the long term.

- Just because she can eat without restriction on a low fat vegan diet, and lose weight, that doesn't transfer to everyone else i.e. Andrew Perlot and many others proved that trying to follow Durian Rider's advice. She is still young. Invariably, middle aged and older people who have weight issues do need to restrict their portions until such time as inappropriate cravings dissipate, even on low fat vegan. This can be as little as 2 weeks but is rarely longer than 3 months.

I think you said in the past that about a third of the population can do this though. So it's worth it as a first try. Getting most of the excess fat and protein out of the diet can only help. I can't get as lean as I would ideally like by doing it, so it still takes some extra planning and commitment to get the extra few kilos off. But since I'm 49yo and can still get fairly close, I must be one of the third.

My view is stress has a lot to do with inappropriate cravings. I've seen people lose weight time and again, and cruise along nicely not gaining weight until some life stressor disrupts the psychoneuroendocrine soup.

Anyway, I think until populist media 'educate' the masses into realizing stress and maladaptive lifestyle impact food choices powerfully, many won't make progress who otherwise might.

One of a number of reasons why the general population won't succeed with weight loss. The populist media under the manipulation of the food industries has been largely to blame for the misinformation.

[CKinnard]

Yes I realize populist media confound things, but they are also THE primary vector for the masses getting information....and getting confused! Where's the confusion coming from? Media using click bait tactics to draw readers, such as "new diet means you can lose weight while eating bacon and eggs and chocolate!"

Re what I said about 1/3 of the population being able to 'overfeed' and not gain weight, that's somewhat supported by the fact that 2/3's of the population are overweight. However, as you age, that 1/3 would drop as the % of overweight people increases above 2/3's.

You might be interested in the fact that obesity diminishes as one ages beyond 60 years of age (for men). Presumably it's to do with a higher attrition rate of obese men, and possibly study design. People lose a lot of lean tissue with age so that will confound BMI definition of obesity.

An interesting fact is that abdominal obesity rate continues to go up with age, for both men and women. This supports the use of waist circumference as the metric most pertinent to disease risk.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/Downloa ... 6442453233

"Older Australians are bigger around the waist
The data show that abdominal fatness increased markedly during the 1990s including among older Australians. Based on waist circumference, over 30% of older men and 44% of older women are currently at substantially increased risk of disease because of abdominal obesity (Figures 8 and 9). These proportions increase steadily over the adult lifespan, with rates highest during older age. Unlike body weight and obesity, the crosssectional prevalence of abdominal obesity continues to increase past late middle age. This is consistent with a redistribution of body fat more into the abdominal area as age increases (Seidell & Visscher 2000)."

[Nobody]

Re what I said about 1/3 of the population being able to 'overfeed' and not gain weight, that's somewhat supported by the fact that 2/3's of the population are overweight. However, as you age, that 1/3 would drop as the % of overweight people increases above 2/3's.

My example confounds that statement to some degree, since I was one of the 2/3 overweight group.

You might be interested in the fact that obesity diminishes as one ages beyond 60 years of age (for men). Presumably it's to do with a higher attrition rate of obese men, and possibly study design. People lose a lot of lean tissue with age so that will confound BMI definition of obesity.

An interesting fact is that abdominal obesity rate continues to go up with age, for both men and women. This supports the use of waist circumference as the metric most pertinent to disease risk.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/Downloa ... 6442453233

"Older Australians are bigger around the waist
The data show that abdominal fatness increased markedly during the 1990s including among older Australians. Based on waist circumference, over 30% of older men and 44% of older women are currently at substantially increased risk of disease because of abdominal obesity (Figures 8 and 9). These proportions increase steadily over the adult lifespan, with rates highest during older age. Unlike body weight and obesity, the crosssectional prevalence of abdominal obesity continues to increase past late middle age. This is consistent with a redistribution of body fat more into the abdominal area as age increases (Seidell & Visscher 2000)."

Yes, I agree that people are being deceived by BMI as they get older. I have a friend who is over 90 yo. He appears to have excessive abdominal fat by his appearance. He's about 168cm and he said he was 70 kg, so a BMI of about 24.8. He seems pretty happy with his weight and that is why I believe he told me what it was. Another is example is a guy I know who is about 70 yo. He looks young for his age and told me he had a lower BMI than me which may have been around 22 at the time. Yet he also had excessive abdominal fat.

This post is related to what I'm describing above.

Also I wonder if the obesity going up with age for the elderly is just following the general trend of society to do the same over recent decades.

[Nobody]

Power is no problem for vegan athletes - SMH

You could argue the title depending on what kind of power you are talking about, or what kind of vegan diet it is.

"I've never met a patient who has had a protein deficiency," said sports dietitian Susan Levin, who is also a vegan and recreational runner. "It's really a nonissue."

Yes very rare. But I had a mild one at the last blood test in December (65 with a min of 68). But then I deliberately minimized my protein intake to help reduce body fat to underweight levels for summer. I've since increased my protein intake about 30% since the test. I may do another blood test this month to confirm all is well again.

It recommends that about 10 per cent of total daily calories be protein, meaning roughly 200 kilojoules in an ideal diet.

This should have been Cal or kcal. So that should be 837 kJ, or 50g of protein per day. Since I had a deficiency on about 63g/d, I'd say some are going to need more than that. But if you include beans and whole grains, it should be fine. I'm getting about 84g/d currently, but I may back off into the 70s like previous years soon.

The feared loss of indulgent food is a topic that seems to come up often among both vegan athletes and curious omnivores.

Although the article argues against this fear, I would say if you want to be fairly lean, then indulgent food - whether vegan or not - should be avoided. Especially if like me, you aren't doing an extreme amount of exercise.

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Another one from SMH.

A diet rich in fruits and vegetables outweighs the risks of pesticides

Even though the Dirty Dozen foods do have pesticides, Winter says "actual exposure levels are typically millions of times lower than those that are of health concern."

"The methodology used to rank produce items on the Dirty Dozen list was seriously flawed as it failed to consider the three most important factors used in authentic risk assessments - the amounts of pesticides found, the amounts of the foods consumed, and the toxicity of the pesticides," says Winter. "When we consider these factors, foods on the Dirty Dozen list are clearly safe to consume."

[Nobody]

I lost 5% of my body weight and waist from Aug to Nov, then put it back on again. I did this just by removing beans and limiting higher protein foods like grains. I put the weight back on by adding 200 to 300+ grams of beans per day. Losing the beans worked for me for weight loss, but pushed me into a mild protein deficiency by blood test, which I wasn't expecting. According to Chronometer, I was getting enough protein, but I obviously wasn't absorbing enough relative to my usage. After all, you are what you absorb, rather than eat.

As said before, this appears to be more of a personal problem, since most people are OK with beans and they are encouraged as very healthy and slimming. I'm also still at least 4 kg under ideal weight for height, with a WHtR of 0.434, so beans aren't making me overweight as such. Just something to keep in mind for those who do want to pull out all the stops in weight loss. That is relative to a diet of mainly fruit and fibrous veg. Which brings up another point which I think is relevant. As Greger would say, a food is healthy or unhealthy relative to each other. If you were to ask him about a particular food in regard to health, he would ask "Relative to what?".

[Patt0]

Try sprouting your beans as the first processing step.

Beans never worked for me as a macro food. Lentils were ok once a week.

[Nobody]

Try sprouting your beans as the first processing step.

Thanks. Good idea, but I'm probably too lazy to try it at the moment. I already shop for and prepare my meals. Cooking the beans is enough for me at the moment.

Beans never worked for me as a macro food. Lentils were ok once a week.

Thanks. Good to know I'm not the only one.

[Nobody]

The most common excuse I hear from middle age people about their illnesses is that they are genetic. The implication being that they are the victim and all they can do about it is take their pills and go on with their normal lives. Even when I've presented the evidence that they can minimize/halt/reverse their symptoms, they're still not interested. Food addict behavior IMO.

[Nobody]

Interesting to see the popular media encourage a plant based diet for health more with each passing year.

There are still recommendations in the article I disagree with, which I have listed below. But otherwise a reasonable article.

Eating for better health: The power of plant-based diets - ABC

I would remove the "dairy" label in the image below. Since dairy - or as some call it, "calf growth fluid" - is not a health food and the alternatives are easy enough to find.

Professor Jennings says statins are generally prescribed to people who have had a heart attack or other vascular disease, or who are at a very high risk.

"The evidence for benefit with statins is so strong that I would consider a healthy diet and statins to be complementary rather than alternatives."

Statins are a patch for an unhealthy diet, have side effects and don't work for everyone. On an ideal diet for CVD one should not need to be on statins long term.

Sicilian orange and fennel salad
...
Ingredients (serves four)

2 very large oranges, peeled with the pith removed
250 g (9 oz) fresh fennel, trimmed of stalks
2 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil
flat parsley leaves pulled from stalks, for garnish

Avoid all oils, including olive oil.
https://www.pritikin.com/your-health/he ... e-oil.html

The Pritikin article above does a good job in explaining what's wrong with olive oil. However I disagree with Dr Vogel's advice of:

...“feast on fish”...instead of olive oil...

Since fish has its own problems.