Plant Based Diet Thread

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warthog1
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Nobody wrote: Introverted. Quite disagreeable by nature, but I've learnt some social skills over the years. Quite high in personality stability.
:lol:
That would be me too, apart from the stability. When it's 3 am in the morning during a long night shift and I'm attending yet another malingerer or time wasting drunk I'm on the edge :x
Very hard to bite my tongue at times. I don't always succeed.
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:30 pm

Re personality, one tends to have a fixed average point on trait dimension (say extravert/introvert), however with time and circumstance, one can extend the range of variability they are capable of.

Extravert/introvert dimension in my experience and education (double psych major and specialized in neuroscience), is highly influenced by health and how stimulating one finds their environment. i.e. you can get very nerdy guys who prefer to lock themselves away with books while attending a typical high school. However, if they get into a university department with lots of like minded nerd types, they thrive on the intellectual companionship and become much more balanced socially. So I tend to qualify that dimension in terms of how resonant one's environment is. If it is full of sensate bogans who are just into heavy metal and heavy drinking and testosterone driven activities, then a more intellectually curious person is likely to withdraw.

I think it would be a very interesting study to investigate diet preference and personality. Personality is very much hard wired by physiology, and no doubt food preference is similar. If I had to guess, I'd say extraverts on average prefer heavier foods (animal flesh and dairy), while introverts prefer grains which offer some neurochemical comfort via serotonin and dopamine pathways, when the world impinges uncomfortably. I also find extraverts tend to be more mesomorphic or endomorphic in body type, while endurance athletes tend to be more introverted. If I had to put money on who would prefer a whole foods plant based diet, it would be introverts every time! Obviously these are tendencies, not hard rules. There's always exceptions, like the ectomorphic acne faced teens who seem permanent fixations at Maccas.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:46 pm

warthog1 wrote:That would be me too, apart from the stability.
I thought that would go without saying, just by reading centain WH1 posts. :P
warthog1 wrote:Very hard to bite my tongue at times. I don't always succeed.
Yes. You and I both know strange things can and does happen at 3am as we aren't ourselves under pressure.
CKinnard wrote:If I had to guess, I'd say extraverts on average prefer heavier foods (animal flesh and dairy), while introverts prefer grains which offer some neurochemical comfort via serotonin and dopamine pathways, when the world impinges uncomfortably. I also find extraverts tend to be more mesomorphic or endomorphic in body type, while endurance athletes tend to be more introverted.
Assuming the link between extroverts with medium to heavier set people. Then part of their identity would tied up with being bigger/stronger which would lead them to a tendency to eat to try to keep body mass up. Also extroverts are more likely to go with the crowd and we all know what the crowd eats in western countries.
CKinnard wrote:If I had to put money on who would prefer a whole foods plant based diet, it would be introverts every time! Obviously these are tendencies, not hard rules.
As Doug suggested, it usually takes more of a thinker (he said intelligence) to link health with diet and so I agree with you both. Far more likely to be an introvert. The feelers are more likely to be lined up at fast food places for their next hit. Whether feelers are more likely to be extroverts, I don't know. My observations of people so far suggest they are.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:13 pm

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to- ... ecosystem/

This video's subject is more about TMAO production (or lack of) than the title as a subject IMO.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Incidentally, the history of introvert extraversion is interesting, and something I studied in depth at uni as part of my B.Sc. What makes it so attractive to me is it is heavily rooted in psychophysiology. That is, measures of involuntary physical reactions to stimuli were originally used to define the dimension.
i.e. stimuli such as loud music, sudden bangs, aggressive people interactions, peaceful/boring situations were all used, while measures were taken of responses such as eye pupil dilation/constriction, blood pressure, galvanic skin response, heart rate, respiratory rate. The dimension found people could be grouped according to these autonomic responses.

Introverts tended to be more autonomically distressed by more invasive stimuli, and more comfortable with quiet. Extraverts had a higher threshold for invasive stimuli, and would get distressed with 'boring' stimuli, or lack thereof.

This was an important finding as it was evidence personality has a physiological basis, and might not change considerably with environs. Later twins studies bore this out. This had enormous practical applications in vocational guidance and clinical psychology in guiding people towards where they might find greater happiness.

The dimension was first explored by two Russian psychs called Teplov and Nebilitsyn, then followed one of my favorites, Hans Eysenck who did a lot of work on personality and intelligence....and suffered a lot of professional and public persecution for it. But the guy was the consummate scientist.

Eysenck came up with an excellent theory which resonates deeply with me on the differences between intro and extra verts.
He believes intros are more complex cognitive processors of information (deeper thinkers), and external stimuli can interrupt this process.
However, they can tend to overthink things, and are not as skilled at thinking on their feet and acting quickly when that offers a survival advantage.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:52 am



In fact, most people eat way too much protein and it ends up getting converted to fat.
That appears to be my experience, even with whole plant foods. Something for people to consider who already eat plant based, but may still be struggling to lose weight.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:52 pm

what's new

Back to intermittent fasting (16 hour daily fast)

I've gone the last 2 weeks not eating before midday.
Took 3-4 days to get very comfortable. I am not having cravings of any sort really (sugar, alcohol, salt).
But I have also backed off the bicycle, just a 2-3 sub 90 minute lighter rides a week.

Am eating really simple and repetitively for convenience - lunch and dinner are made together = 3-4 cups of salad, 1 cup of mashed sweet potato, 1 cup of a legume chili. fruit for snacks. Am sated on less than 1000 Calories a day now, with some days around 800 Cals. no salt, oil, or sugar added. Pretty much the True North SOS diet with an 8 hour eating window. In my case, I think it has helped to cut back from too much socializing and hanging with un-like mindeds! Am feeling calmer though a little tired. In the past I have found the fatigue of a very low Calorie diet or fasting passes in 2-3 weeks. This has been a reminder to me how plastic our cravings are. A month ago, I was having cravings for bread, sultana scones, refined starches in the morning, and wine in the early evening, and was putting on weight again. Took 7/10 will power for 3-4 days before the cravings eased++.

What turned the cravings on in the first instance?
At the beginning of the year, I ramped up my riding volume and was socializing heavily. I think maybe both together was perceived as distress, which possibly led to a cortisol storm.

Incidentally I had bloods a few weeks ago before getting back on course and my A1c, hsCRP, Vit.D, B12, uric acid were all great. LDL/HDL ratio was great but both could be lower. BP had also began to rise 140/85, 55bpm mid morning, but is now back to 110/70, 47bpm.

Perineal or Bladder Issues

For the last few weeks I've been liaising with celebrated Brisbane physio Peter Dornan who has an international reputation for treating disorders involving the perineum, especially bladder and repro organ dysfunction (pain, numbness or paresthesia anywhere there, erectile dysfunction, urinary frequency or urgency, incontinence. He has made a study of the nerve supplies (pudendal, ilioinguinal, genitofemoral nerves) and entrapment neuropathies of such. He is getting excellent results and is taken seriously by Australia's urologists. Peter doesn't think about a possible role of fluid and pH balance and how visceral obesity might stress these nerves and their sheaths, but he did mention very few of his patients would have a BMI under 23.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:27 pm

CK your tired because your not eating enough calories.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:07 pm

Baalzamon wrote:CK your tired because your not eating enough calories.
Yes but it passes when you kick more efficiently into ketosis.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:29 pm

Hope your having enough fats then and testing blood ketones to show that you are producing ketones.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:01 pm

CKinnard wrote:what's new

Back to intermittent fasting (16 hour daily fast)

I've gone the last 2 weeks not eating before midday.
It's got to be the easiest way to lose weight. Easier than portion control IMO. As you know, I effectively used intermittent feeding last year, but I'm gaining at the moment. Trying to add a bit of strength and weight before winter. Hopefully I won't gain too much visceral fat, but from what I've read/seen it doesn't work that way. I should expect to gain fat if I'm eating enough to gain muscle. We'll see what happens I suppose.

I occasionally get reminded of what peoples' preconceived ideas are about lean people. I was doing an equipment training course yesterday and one of my colleagues says to me out of the blue "this power supply is 53kg, are you OK with that?" to which I said yes and that I should be able to lift it by myself. Obviously if you're thin, you must also be a weakling. He probably wouldn't have asked me back when I was 82 kg. But I know I could only lift the same or less than I do now, back then.
CKinnard wrote:...In my case, I think it has helped to cut back from too much socializing and hanging with un-like mindeds!
Yeah, as you know, socializing is poison for healthy eating. Something I rarely do. Usually the ideology of the lowest common denominator reigns.
CKinnard wrote:Incidentally I had bloods a few weeks ago before getting back on course and my A1c, hsCRP, Vit.D, B12, uric acid were all great. LDL/HDL ratio was great but both could be lower. BP had also began to rise 140/85, 55bpm mid morning, but is now back to 110/70, 47bpm.
Good news then. Does intermittent feeding cause BP to rise? Mine seems to be pretty consistent at around 115/65. I really should get another checkup done with bloods and BP, but I'm waiting for some things to stabilize first. Maybe in a two or three weeks.
CKinnard wrote:Perineal or Bladder Issues
... but he did mention very few of his patients would have a BMI under 23.
Reminds me of the graphs I posted in the loser thread which showed all is well with BMI for men between about 20 and 23. However I seem to find many when losing weight aim for a BMI of around 23 -25, but the graph suggests they should be aiming lower. It would be better if mortality/morbidity research was done with WHtR instead of BMI. A BMI of 23 is probably going to be a WHtR of around 0.47 at a guess.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:08 am

Baalzamon wrote:Hope your having enough fats then and testing blood ketones to show that you are producing ketones.
I went through 6 consecutive weeks of ketosis last year, 3 weeks on a water only fast, and 3 on 3x juices a day.
Bloods were taken at least once a week, and urine was tracked daily. In a medically supervised water fast, ketones in urine are used to monitor transition to ketosis, after which they are monitored to see if the patient is cheating by eating; in which case urine
ketones drop.

The fats I am 'having' are my fat stores!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:11 am

Nobody, I tried IF in October last year and only lasted a week. I was getting too hungry and weak.
But this time I've had a smoother transition. I think it probably comes down to total stress score and sleep quality! Incidentally, I am finding I am wide awake at midnight. Same thing happened at TN last year and is common for most who water fast, at least the first 1-2 weeks.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:36 am

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, I tried IF in October last year and only lasted a week. I was getting too hungry and weak.
But this time I've had a smoother transition. I think it probably comes down to total stress score and sleep quality! Incidentally, I am finding I am wide awake at midnight. Same thing happened at TN last year and is common for most who water fast, at least the first 1-2 weeks.
The bodybuilders who do a lot of this as part of their lifestyle suggest to reduce to around 75% of one's usual intake and expect to take months for results. They argue if you go too hard, you get too much of a starvation response from the body. I was on about 1800 Cal/d. I usually eat about 2800 to 3200 Cal/d in adlib mode at the moment, which is slightly weight gaining for me. I'm usually a fairly good sleeper (it's very difficult to be a shift worker if not) yet I have more difficulty getting to, or staying asleep if I stop eating earlier in the afternoon.

I'm fortunate in that I appear to switch over to fat burning quite easily and don't seem to get very hungry when not eating. But I'm probably less stressed than you, as I only work a fixed hours job. As I showed last year, I could get down to an unhealthy weight without too much effort. Even at my recent heaviest at winter last year, my BMI was still under 22.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:00 am

CKinnard wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:Hope your having enough fats then and testing blood ketones to show that you are producing ketones.
I went through 6 consecutive weeks of ketosis last year, 3 weeks on a water only fast, and 3 on 3x juices a day.
Bloods were taken at least once a week, and urine was tracked daily. In a medically supervised water fast, ketones in urine are used to monitor transition to ketosis, after which they are monitored to see if the patient is cheating by eating; in which case urine
ketones drop.

The fats I am 'having' are my fat stores!
Ketostix riiiight. :roll:
Urine ketone bodies are expelled ketones and not ones used by the body. So in the beginning you will get strong results. As you get into ketosis they will start to show less and less ketones and all of a sudden you will only be registering traces of ketones. Blood ketones doesn't have that problem, nor does breath analysers.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:52 am

Baalzamon wrote:Ketostix riiiight. :roll:
Urine ketone bodies are expelled ketones and not ones used by the body. So in the beginning you will get strong results. As you get into ketosis they will start to show less and less ketones and all of a sudden you will only be registering traces of ketones. Blood ketones doesn't have that problem, nor does breath analysers.
Urine ketones don't reduce to immeasurable levels when water fasting.
Sounds like you only read low carb diet sources.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:14 pm

Try a 30 day water fast and see what happens.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:50 pm

Fasting I see as something that works for some and not for others. Its a topic that often spouts a lot of debate and its suitability depends very much on your objectives.

The prime of objective in modern society is weight loss and what I see with fasting is a period when the only source of energy is from storage and so in theory is should result in fat loss. However I am seeing two potential challenges with the approach;
1. Metabolism. Does the mind decide that there is a lack of food available and to survive it needs to reduce the energy output of the body.
2. What can't be provided from storage. If your body needs a significant repair such as what happens when you have done some heavy exercise, then the material is not available as storage and it needs to be sourced from the working components of the body. The end result may be some weight loss for the wrong reason.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:10 pm

Baalzamon wrote:Try a 30 day water fast and see what happens.
Try running a medically supervised water fasting center for 25 years, and collating the data into a clinical algorithm.

My fast was around 19 days strictly water, and 23 days on less than 400 Cals/day of juice.
Even with the juice, I still had measurable urine ketones until day 42, and for two weeks after as I gradually ramped Calorie intake to 1200 Cals.

Presuming your experience is personal anecdote,
1. your ketostix may have been compromised (past expiry date or stored inappropriately)
2. your water intake so high as to dilute concentration.
3. you were active prior to taking urine sample, and your muscles used a higher level of plasma ketones.

Either way, I'd like to know the source of your view that ketone levels drop in the urine to unmonitorable levels as a prolonged fast progresses.

Once renal threshold is exceeded (which occurs when plasma levels rise above normal), plasma and urine ketone levels are linearly correlated, despite high levels of ketone reabsorption. That means as plasma levels go up, so does filtered amount, reasborbed amount, and excreted amount.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:57 am


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:30 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:Try a 30 day water fast and see what happens.
Try running a medically supervised water fasting center for 25 years, and collating the data into a clinical algorithm.

My fast was around 19 days strictly water, and 23 days on less than 400 Cals/day of juice.
Even with the juice, I still had measurable urine ketones until day 42, and for two weeks after as I gradually ramped Calorie intake to 1200 Cals.

Presuming your experience is personal anecdote,
1. your ketostix may have been compromised (past expiry date or stored inappropriately)
2. your water intake so high as to dilute concentration.
3. you were active prior to taking urine sample, and your muscles used a higher level of plasma ketones.

Either way, I'd like to know the source of your view that ketone levels drop in the urine to unmonitorable levels as a prolonged fast progresses.
Steve Phinny & Volek who have numerous years studying ketosis and how to test for it.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:47 pm

Nobody wrote:Another meta-analysis nut study.

http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/ar ... 016-0730-3
I often wonder about the precision of such studies, how they control diet and lifestyle variables that are also strong modifiers of disease risk.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:04 pm

CKinnard wrote:I often wonder about the precision of such studies, how they control diet and lifestyle variables that are also strong modifiers of disease risk.
Me too and probably many people who bother to read or glance over study results. Other than peer reviewed, published and possibly finding out who funded them, we're relying on the honesty or the scientists. Which in itself is hazardous.

Unless stated otherwise, I assume a poor western diet as the control or diet base. Jeff Novick said that the better your diet gets, the less nuts make a difference. Still, some improvement should be better than none. So I still consume linseed daily and nuts somewhere between weekly to daily.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:24 pm

Yes I agree it's an issue when a diet is compared as superior to the SAD! It isn't saying much.
I often think it is a fool's journey to seek an 'optimal' diet, that we have evolved for.
I suppose I get cynical about studies that are written up as this food item is very good for you.
And then you are expected to get all these good foods into you without eating too much.
It's a pretty silly approach, as there's no prioritization of what is more important.
Ultimately the most important dietary principal in my books is don't overeat! cos that's the one compromising Western civilization's health most. and the journey to achieving that should see ppl avoid too Calorie dense a diet.

Incidentally, today is a 500 Cal day. Am feeling more and more comfortable and functional every day. No exercise. Lots of talking this morning with mates which tired me, a short sleep this arvo. And feeling very relaxed. Blood glucose was 4.8 today and ketones approx 30mg/dL.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:48 pm

CKinnard wrote:I often think it is a fool's journey to seek an 'optimal' diet...
Agree. As much I respect Greger's effort, I think he pushes this line too hard with his "How Not to Die" book.
CKinnard wrote:I suppose I get cynical about studies that are written up as this food item is very good for you.
Probably because we wonder how much is truth and how much is industry marketing behind the scenes. I'm particularly like that when I get different results to the studies. Both nuts and beans come to mind. They may be slimming in the studies (compared to SAD?), but they're not slimming for me.
CKinnard wrote:And then you are expected to get all these good foods into you without eating too much.
I still don't follow the recommended intake of whole grains, getting 2 serves instead of 6. And I doubt I ever will without adding more weight. It's too much IMO unless you're doing copious amounts of exercise. No dairy alternatives either which I've proven unnecessary in my case.
CKinnard wrote:It's a pretty silly approach, as there's no prioritization of what is more important.
Agree. I've got a mental priority list in descending order of importance which goes something like:
Linseed, fibrous veg, fruit, starchy veg, legumes & grains, nuts.
For all the hype on legumes I'm not sold on large amounts of them like Greger recommends. Similar with grains and nuts.
CKinnard wrote:Ultimately the most important dietary principal in my books is don't overeat! cos that's the one compromising Western civilization's health most. and the journey to achieving that should see ppl avoid too Calorie dense a diet.
Agree with Cal density being a key player in diet. I believe Doug Lisle was onto something when he explained that the problem with humans and their pets being the only species that were (unexplainably) overweight was about the wrong diet for species. Assuming the exclusion of all the psych/stress issues that modern humans have. Although most pets probably aren't under significant mental stress.
CKinnard wrote:Blood glucose was 4.8 today and ketones approx 30mg/dL.
Personally, I hope I never have to worry about BG and/or ketones. :)

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