Plant Based Diet Thread

Forum rules
The information / discussion in the Cycling Health Forum is not qualified medical advice. Please consult your doctor.
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22159
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:34 am

That's a good easy to read article. Thanks for posting
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

big booty
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:40 am

Yep, I have a big bowl of berries with my yogurt every morning. If youre going to have fruit, berries are the way to go.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:40 pm

big booty wrote:This will happen in a very controlled (atypical) lab setting environment and will blow out even more in studies where external variables can not be monitored as closely. So why should a person's response to a particular diet be any different?
It's a relativity matter. You are overplaying variance, and disrespecting what the bell curve of human responses looks like.
Pharmaceutical companies do larger studies because the consequences can be fatal for a small percentage of younger people, and a variable percentage of frail elderly, who tend to take pharmaceuticals more so. Hence, it is important for pharmas to stress test frail physiologies with new products.

The majority of people fall within 2 std deviations re risk of adverse effects.

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:37 pm

The next paragraph is about personal health stuff, so you may want to skip it.

I've been helping my elderly father (88yo) lately while he's been in hospital and learnt something about my genetics. It seems I've been misled (for whatever reason) to believe that my father didn't have any atherosclerosis problems and that I mainly needed to worry about leukemia. But I spoke to my father's doctor on the phone about his health to learn that his CT brain scan show he's had multiple stokes in the past. When I inform my father of this, he said his father died of a stroke. So it appears I now have another potential genetic problem to keep me focused on diet. The doctor also said his ferritin was 583 :shock: (30 - 300), which is about the same as mine was when they diagnosed me with hemochromatosis. Although his saturation is in_range at 30 (10 - 45) where mine was 60. He told me he likes to eat meat and I can see the results of it. I advised him to stay away from beef which is particularly high in iron.

http://www.nature.com/nutd/journal/v6/n ... 1620a.html
Conclusions: As a traditional component of MeD, pasta consumption was negatively associated with BMI, waist circumference and waist-to-hip ratio and with a lower prevalence of overweight and obesity.
I had some doubts about avoiding added salt in the past. But thanks to this video, I don't anymore.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/sodium- ... dothelium/
A salted meal can impair artery function within 30 minutes by suppressing a key detoxifying antioxidant enzyme in our body.
The study in the video below shows the ideal calcium intake for plant based eaters is between 275 and 778 for men and slightly less for women. Looks like my daily intake falls within that. Today it was approx 530mg.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:19 am

Eat enough animal produce and live long enough, and you'll get atherosclerosis....that's a given.

The one thing my True North experience convincingly changed my mind about was the dangers of salt.
I have been more liberal on salt than most due to my heavy sweat rate when in the saddle, but as my BP tends to rise when I get stressed, I am cutting back on that, well at least when I eat at home.

Last night, I baked a mixture of sweet potatoes and yams, made oil free humus and salsa....enough for a week. Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22159
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:24 am

Nobody, you are sensible to adapt your diet to your personal circumstances. Probably 2/3's of the population also need to do that.

What's your issue with high iron content? I'm not understanding
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:45 pm

CKinnard wrote:The one thing my True North experience convincingly changed my mind about was the dangers of salt.
I have been more liberal on salt than most due to my heavy sweat rate when in the saddle, but as my BP tends to rise when I get stressed, I am cutting back on that, well at least when I eat at home.
I used to sweat more when I was overweight than I do now. I've had plenty of biochemistry panels done in recent years and none have been low for sodium so far.
CKinnard wrote:Last night, I baked a mixture of sweet potatoes and yams, made oil free humus and salsa....enough for a week. Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.
Good idea about pre-cooking. Looks like you're on track to keeping it off then. I'm fortunate enough to be able to cook at work.
mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, you are sensible to adapt your diet to your personal circumstances. Probably 2/3's of the population also need to do that.
Thanks. For atherosclerosis only, you are probably right. But by the time you factor in cancer/leukemia, auto-immune diseases, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, NAFLD, kidney disease etc, etc, not many people escape dietary related chronic diseases in the long term.
mikesbytes wrote:What's your issue with high iron content? I'm not understanding
My issue is hemochromatosis which is a genetic mistake (H63D in my case) which prevents the reduction of iron absorption when you've had too much. So the body acts like it's deficient in iron, regardless of what level is already stored. It leads to cirrhosis of the liver and death if untreated. You can still get iron loading without it as my father has shown and it is linked to many illnesses. More on this in link below. Levels of ferritin over as little as 100 have been shown to inhibit cognitive ability, with many more symptoms at higher levels.
http://www.irondisorders.org/iron-overload

Meanwhile I know people who take iron supplements because they think they need it without knowing their iron levels. Early last century a person would have to get a prescription from a GP to get supplements like vitamins. A return to this form of regulation may be in the interest of the general public IMO. People are worried about being deficient in many things because the commercial media tells them it's a problem. Yet an overdose can be more dangerous in many cases.
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

big booty
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:47 pm

CKinnard wrote: Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.
Hmmm steamed veggies or cardboard?? Both are plant based and both have about the same taste appeal. Why not just chop up the veggies and have them raw in a salad with some apple cider vinegar and a splash of olive oil? At least it will taste like something.

ball bearing
Posts: 951
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Watching the ships on the Southern Ocean

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby ball bearing » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:46 pm

big booty wrote:
CKinnard wrote: Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.
Hmmm steamed veggies or cardboard?? Both are plant based and both have about the same taste appeal. Why not just chop up the veggies and have them raw in a salad with some apple cider vinegar and a splash of olive oil? At least it will taste like something.
No taste? Which veggies are you referring to? The veggies I eat have heaps of flavour.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:39 am

big booty wrote:
CKinnard wrote: Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.
Hmmm steamed veggies or cardboard?? Both are plant based and both have about the same taste appeal. Why not just chop up the veggies and have them raw in a salad with some apple cider vinegar and a splash of olive oil? At least it will taste like something.
taste is highly adaptable, and taste appeal highly individual.
yes there's a case for eating vege primarily raw, and I usually do have a salad at lunch, and steamed vege for dinner.
however, many dark green leafys do provide more nutrients when lightly steamed.

the weather is colder and yesterday I did an 80km ride before lunch which left me even colder and desirous of a warm lunch.
I don't find steamed vege taste like cardboard. I am happy usually to squirt lemon juice on mine.
Maybe you need to change food providores if you find your vege taste like cardboard.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22159
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:05 am

Yes I agree with Ckinnard, taste is about adaption. For many its a case of taking steps between ones current position and the position you want to be in
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:33 pm

Agree with both comments above, taste is about adaption.

Got a blood test today for vitamins B12 & D, glucose and homocysteine. B12 was getting lower 9 months ago with supplementation, so I expect the trend may continue, even though I've increased the supplementation. That's why I also got homocysteine tested since it relies on B12 and can effect inflammation. My hsCRP was up to 0.6 last month. So other than less exercise, I'm looking for other possible causes. I may need to start B12 injections depending on the results.

Vitamin D was just a check to make sure it's still OK during winter. Glucose is my first fasting measurement, since my last one was random in 2014. I though I may as well get these others while I was there. I didn't bother with the lipid panel (cholesterol) since I'm not a big believer in it anymore and the other usual tests were only done a month ago for my hemochromatosis (which are posted).

big booty
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:47 pm

CKinnard wrote:
big booty wrote:
CKinnard wrote: Lunch and dinner today will be potato, humus, salsa, and a big stack of steamed vege.
Hmmm steamed veggies or cardboard?? Both are plant based and both have about the same taste appeal. Why not just chop up the veggies and have them raw in a salad with some apple cider vinegar and a splash of olive oil? At least it will taste like something.
taste is highly adaptable, and taste appeal highly individual.
yes there's a case for eating vege primarily raw, and I usually do have a salad at lunch, and steamed vege for dinner.
however, many dark green leafys do provide more nutrients when lightly steamed.

the weather is colder and yesterday I did an 80km ride before lunch which left me even colder and desirous of a warm lunch.
I don't find steamed vege taste like cardboard. I am happy usually to squirt lemon juice on mine.
Maybe you need to change food providores if you find your vege taste like cardboard.
Mixing my metaphors, taste is in the eye of the beholder. Most of the time I have my veggies raw (with skin). I just chop them up and usually have them in salad type dishes. On the occasions that I (actually my wife) has grown some veggies there is a world of difference in the taste. I suspect taste has been substituted for storage life and transportation ease with most commercially grown veggies. If I was more time rich Id grow my own or visit local markets but I do not have that luxury.

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:35 pm

Spud Fit's latest blood test results.


CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:50 pm

big booty wrote:If I was more time rich Id grow my own or visit local markets but I do not have that luxury.
I'd encourage you to find a way to get better veges and fruit into your life.
I spent my last few days in the US in San Francisco with a friend I made at True North. he and his wife and I did a few touristy things. We also stumbled across a farmer's market in the financial center of SF on a week day. Without doubt I tasted and bought the best strawberries I have tasted in my adult life. They were organic and ripe. They reminded me of what a real strawberry tastes like....like the ones I helped grow in my parents' back yard when I was in primary school.

I think the consumer needs to kick back against the commercial forces that are undermining the quality of what we put in our mouths.
I have decided to spend more on fruit and vege from now, the best organic I can get.
Organic is so commonly available in the US, and very good quality.....well this was so where I was staying.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:58 am

Nobody wrote:Spud Fit's latest blood test results.
I am not a great fan of what Spud Fit is doing here, nutritionally. Nevertheless, it is an interesting challenge to much dogma.

His bloods are looking great because they were rubbish before from eating a fast food staples diet.
The body has well over a year's worth of many nutrients in store. If he wanted to prove something, let him eat potatoes for 20 years and see what happens. This is more in accord with his interpretation of history that the Irish thrived for centuries on a diet primarily of potatoes.

As I wrote to him, would he feed a pregnant wife this diet? would he raise his kids on this diet?

He has a very naive/wrong view of why the Irish thrived on potatoes...which they didn't. It was just that an abundance of potatoes were better than the alternative available to Irish peasants.

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:19 pm

Last I heard he is going to terminate the diet after the year and go to a more general plant based diet. I was looking at his DEXA scan video and to find that even after 6 months he still has a way to go.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


From this video I found out I'm hard-core. :mrgreen: Not really as it took me years to progress to the diet style I have now. :oops:

Anyway, I think the video explains calorie density quite well, which can be the last piece of the puzzle for many plant based eaters who struggle with weight. And even if that doesn't work, then a small calorie restriction on top of following all the other advice should work. Although most should never need to do that.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:07 am

I think I've implied before the Calories per pound thing is enlightening for comparative energy density for those ignorant of the definition of 'processed' food.

However, once one has absorbed that simple lesson, then Calorie density via volume (not mass) becomes more practically beneficial. Why? because most don't know what a pound of various foods looks like on a plate. But they can quickly learn what a cup measure of any food looks like, and thereby guestimate the Calories on a plate.

The trouble many people at TN had was in not losing weight, or actually gaining weight, once they returned to refeeding. They were constantly told they could eat to satiation or 80% of satiation (depending on the doctor), and not gain weight. The woman Anthony is talking about at 18:55 is soooo typical. But TN has an autocratic method in place, that will not be changed easily.

There's this intellectual blindness and arrogance that one doesn't need to count Calories when eating PBWF. This is BS in my view. Many people who struggle with weight or chronic illness have dysregulated physiology that impairs normal satiety signals. Allan Goldhammer told me 60% of residents of True North are return guests. It is not unreasonable to conclude from that that 60% are not learning the True North message well the first time. Personally, I wouldn't be happy with a program with that level of success. And I was floored more than once to realize how little had been absorbed/remembered by repeat guests.

As for Anthony, he is the first to admit he differs in view to the TN founding medical team on many issues. Nevertheless, in my many talks with him, I found he is the least insightful and the most rigid, He is also the least experienced of TN staff, having been a lawyer before developing an interest in health and going back to school.

Finally, in my many frank conversations with TN residents, I must have given the following table to at least 30.....most of whom queried why such a simple thing was not included in the formal material.

Calories per cup
Legumes and grains 200
Potato 100
Vegetables 25
Fruit 60

With those 4 numbers, one has the knowledge to build a plate with a known Calorie content.
With those 4 numbers, and a quick energy expenditure estimate, one has no reason for overfeeding, and therefore not presenting to their Doctor with the most common TN complaint "Doctor, i am eating what you tell me to, but the weight just isn't shifting".
With those 4 numbers, one doesn't need to revisit TN every year for 15+ years as several I met had been doing.


Not meaning to sound like a grouch, but Gustavo did a fast on my shift, so I had several lengthy conversations with him. He is a concert pianist by profession....and has the nutritional knowledge of one! I've been around long enough to know whenever you get a facility like TN and McDougall's operation, personality gets in the way of progressing the knowledge and its clear efficient communication to as many as is possible. I am keepign in touch with over 20 residents from TN, and 5 interns. All feel the experience could have been improved markedly. The biggest complaint is in not having clearer guidelines and support once leaving the passive protected confines of TN. It saddened me that syncophantism was so ubiquitous at TN, and residents' issues too often came second.

Nevertheless, I am grateful for the pioneers who started TN, but feel they need some stiff scientifically rooted competition.

big booty
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:24 am

I suspect that TN is not taking into account the psychology of most of these people and theyre treating the problem as a very simplistic mechanical one. On another forum it is very easy to spot how distorted some people's view of what a normal portion of food is. Also many do not treat food as a simply a source of nutrients. Its their drug of addiction. Hence your cup reference might be useful for some, but not those with an addiction problem. I also think that for some of these people their satiety feedback system isn't working as intended. The "Im full" signal just doesnt work.

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:50 am

Thanks for the insightful post CK. It should clarify food density further for those who need more clarification.
CKinnard wrote:I think I've implied before the Calories per pound thing is enlightening for comparative energy density for those ignorant of the definition of 'processed' food.

However, once one has absorbed that simple lesson, then Calorie density via volume (not mass) becomes more practically beneficial. Why? because most don't know what a pound of various foods looks like on a plate. But they can quickly learn what a cup measure of any food looks like, and thereby guestimate the Calories on a plate.
That's why I converted their recommendations to Cal/100g or no_fibre_Cal/100g. As you know, I usually weigh everything but fruit at home. I estimate the fruit from previous average weighing.
CKinnard wrote:The trouble many people at TN had was in not losing weight, or actually gaining weight, once they returned to refeeding. They were constantly told they could eat to satiation or 80% of satiation (depending on the doctor), and not gain weight. The woman Anthony is talking about at 18:55 is soooo typical. But TN has an autocratic method in place, that will not be changed easily.

There's this intellectual blindness and arrogance that one doesn't need to count Calories when eating PBWF. This is BS in my view. Many people who struggle with weight or chronic illness have dysregulated physiology that impairs normal satiety signals. Allan Goldhammer told me 60% of residents of True North are return guests. It is not unreasonable to conclude from that that 60% are not learning the True North message well the first time. Personally, I wouldn't be happy with a program with that level of success. And I was floored more than once to realize how little had been absorbed/remembered by repeat guests.
From what you've written, I think one of the problems lie with the staff being more technically minded, while many of the customers aren't. So the staff get it and seem to not understand why the non-technical customers aren't getting it. 60% failure rate sounds pretty poor, but they are likely working with people with psychological issues at the core of their problems like you've explained in the past.
CKinnard wrote:Finally, in my many frank conversations with TN residents, I must have given the following table to at least 30.....most of whom queried why such a simple thing was not included in the formal material.

Calories per cup
Legumes and grains 200
Potato 100
Vegetables 25
Fruit 60

With those 4 numbers, one has the knowledge to build a plate with a known Calorie content.
With those 4 numbers, and a quick energy expenditure estimate, one has no reason for overfeeding, and therefore not presenting to their Doctor with the most common TN complaint "Doctor, i am eating what you tell me to, but the weight just isn't shifting".
Thanks for posting this again. A good reminder of how simple it can be. But of course people eat more variety than that and it's probably those foods that get them into trouble.
CKinnard wrote: With those 4 numbers, one doesn't need to revisit TN every year for 15+ years as several I met had been doing.
These people sound like they actually like their lifestyle, or have self control issues. I doubt it could be lack of knowledge after 15 years.
CKinnard wrote:...All feel the experience could have been improved markedly. The biggest complaint is in not having clearer guidelines and support once leaving the passive protected confines of TN. It saddened me that syncophantism was so ubiquitous at TN, and residents' issues too often came second.

Nevertheless, I am grateful for the pioneers who started TN, but feel they need some stiff scientifically rooted competition.
Well it's a business first and from what you say it measures up that way. Many businesses thrive on repeat business from inefficiency. The general medical system (business) comes to mind. To be totally cynical, if they gave plenty of after stay support, it would cost them more and they would get less repeat business. But hopefully your visit will help them think about the way they do things, since it seems you were fairly vocal during your stay.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:57 pm

big booty wrote:I suspect that TN is not taking into account the psychology of most of these people and theyre treating the problem as a very simplistic mechanical one. On another forum it is very easy to spot how distorted some people's view of what a normal portion of food is. Also many do not treat food as a simply a source of nutrients. Its their drug of addiction. Hence your cup reference might be useful for some, but not those with an addiction problem. I also think that for some of these people their satiety feedback system isn't working as intended. The "Im full" signal just doesnt work.
When considering overfeeding, I think we all need to think more carefully about the terms we use, that science uses.
When is a satiety issue physiological, and when is it psychological?

I read and read and read when I was at TN, and I got more out of that than the lectures and discussions with original founders. I am not dismissing them, at all, because I think they were ground breakers over the last 20 odd years. THey have done a lot to bring credibility to something that was very fringe prior. However, the science is moving quickly in this field, and the original medical team at TN is resting on its laurels. I don't judge them too harshly for that as the crp they have been through with government trying to shut them down would have exhausted me and my enthusiasm.

No doubt there are some dietary behaviors that are fundamentally rooted in a less than serious commitment to overcoming serious chronic health issues. There were many beached whales at TN who were more into the social side of it than the therapeutic side. That's cool for them. They are wealthy and are used to money being able to buy privilege. But they are naive in believing health can be bought.

As I read the literature more and more, I find it difficult to distinguish whether dysregulation of satiety and cravings are primarily psychoemotional or pathophysiological. There's good evidence that hydration state, sleep quantity and quality, microbiome composition, depression/anxiety, allergies, and even viral infections, can dysregulate appetite, and have one craving inappropriate foods and food volume. This soup of things that can go wrong re appetite is not given a lot of airplay at TN, sadly. In the face of this, i think it is appropriate to teach people what science is discovering....and it makes it even more important to educate people about energy balance (calories in/out). because many cannot rely on their appetite or satiety signals to work effectively most of the time.

The one constant in weight management is energy in/out. If one gains a reasonable understanding of how much food is on a plate, and what their energy expenditure is, they can gain insight into whether their appetite is dysfunctional on any particular day.
When I was at TN my appetite settled right down. I honestly felt comfortably sated on as little as 500 Calories when refeeding. When I left TN, I continued to eat 500-1500 Calories and not get hungry. Within a few days of arriving back in Brisbane, that changed. Was it the colder weather? more k's on the roadie and CX? anxiety about work/personal life issues, missing the protective peaceful uncomplicated environs of TN? getting back into a morning coffee habit? who knows. But the cravings are now there more regularly to be dealt with.

I shall be doing a lot of self experimentation over the coming 3 months. I have 2 TNers coming out to stay with me for extended personal consults and holidays, and we'll all be keeping each other honest! :) A goal that is important to me now is to maintain a low bodyfat %, <12%. From my readings, doing so covers a lot of the advantages of PBWF eating. In addition, I'll am embarking on several commercial adventures, which I will not share until realized! But they will help me focus my time and energy into more positive pursuits.

CKinnard
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:19 pm

Nobody wrote:But hopefully your visit will help them think about the way they do things, since it seems you were fairly vocal during your stay.
There's vocal and vocal Nobody. I am actually very measured when it comes to stepping into established social systems such as TN. I realize things are not going to change because some bloke from Australia thinks it would be a good idea. What I did more of was subtly drawing out the deeper views of many of the staff, individually. That gave me very good insight into whether everyone was on the same page, and who had what vision on how things might be improved. Nothing I heard surprised me. Now I should say that most of the TN staff also work with John McDougall when he has his 10 day events. So anything I say about TN also applies to McDougall. Also, Chef AJ is in thick with both facilities and comes up several times a year to do demos etc.

I tested the waters oh so subtly on vocalizing some of the directions I think TN might go in the future, but what I got back made me realize my insights are based on a many nights of obsessing over the literature, more than anyone else I know. The people who resonated with me most were several of the interns, 2 Aussie student doctors, 1 recently graduated US doctor, and 1 US med student. They could see TN was not keeping up to date with the literature, and some things being taught emphatically by the old school were just no longer considered true in the lit.

I must say too that no one knows everything. A surprising number of TNers have confided in me that the medication advice they got from TN doctors led to complications which their usual doctors have had to spend weeks sorting out. Now, of course, this is a really loaded gun, with emotion and person's perception of whether they got their expectations met by their TN experience clouding objectivity. When people pay a lot of money and invest a lot of time in something, and their health doesn't miraculously get better, then the chances are they are going to feel hoodwinked almost. That's certainly the case for several who have written to me. Anyway, time moves on....and my view remains that diet is only one aspect of health. We need to address all aspects, and even then, we may need to change ourselves more than is comfortable, before we find the happiness and health we seek.

OK, 75km ride done...now time for lunch....pita bread with half an avo, a can of beans mixed with home made salsa, and a couple of cups of steamed greens....a banana and 1/4 pawpaw were had for brekky, post ride!

Regarding the 4 numbers (legumes/grains, potato, vege, fruit), the only thing I have left out of a PBWF diet is nuts and seeds.
One could also argue at a stretch I am not accounting for avocado.
However, anyone who takes PBWF diet seriously for weight loss would not consume nuts, seeds, and avocado as daily staples.
Rather these would be discretionary items, and taken 1-2 times a week while attemping to lose weight.
Missing richer sources of Omega 3 EFA during a weight loss program is not going to have dire consequences.

Once one hits their goal weight, and begins a eucaloric diet, higher fat items can be introduced sparingly (Nuts average 6.5Cals/g and seeds 5.5Cals/g)
As I've said before, the most important PBWF dietary principle in my books is not to overeat. Excess energy intake contributes to degeneration of the human body more than any other single factor, as evident from studies into intermittent and alternate day fasting, and cron studies. A strong case can be made for the kidney being the most critical organ when considering longevity. The liver can rebuild itself to a degree, the kidney cannot. The most potent dietary habits one can adopt to reduce load on the kidney is to stop overfeeding and ensure adequate fluid intake. Particularly, one should maintain a lean bodyweight, not eat excess protein or sodium, and keep blood glucose stable. Once kidney function is compromised, it does not return.

big booty
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:08 am

Hmmm PBWF and you eat pita bread but treat nuts with caution? I eat almonds and walnuts like there is no tomorrow and eat any grain based foods with caution. I treat all (processed) grains with caution. Personally I think calories in/calories out is to simplistic. Calories in = calories out + calories to storage. With this you can then see that reducing calories in does not necessarily equate to weight loss.

Nobody
Posts: 10316
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:13 am

CKinnard wrote:Regarding the 4 numbers (legumes/grains, potato, vege, fruit), the only thing I have left out of a PBWF diet is nuts and seeds.
One could also argue at a stretch I am not accounting for avocado.
Other things that come to mind are sugars, breads & processed grains (~60% of US diet), coconut, oil, salt and juices. WFPB means different things to different people.
CKinnard wrote:Missing richer sources of Omega 3 EFA during a weight loss program is not going to have dire consequences.
Agree. For the first 6 months I didn't have any nut & seeds IIRC and I didn't appear to have any problem. These days I find I do better if I get the minimum WHO spec for PUFA.
CKinnard wrote:The most potent dietary habits one can adopt to reduce load on the kidney is to stop overfeeding and ensure adequate fluid intake. Particularly, one should maintain a lean bodyweight, not eat excess protein or sodium, and keep blood glucose stable. Once kidney function is compromised, it does not return.
Good point. Over-anything can often be damaging. It makes me wonder at times whether I should eliminate beans from my diet (~100g+/d) since they are some of the highest in protein and acidity. However there are studies that associate bean intake with longevity.
Fortunately for me, my eGFR consistently comes in at "> 90".
For those interested, Gregor did 6 videos on kidney health and diet which are listed in the link below.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/treatin ... with-food/
The main thing I got from them is that eliminating animal protein was necessary to improve kidney health, which is a given. But it also said that you can get similar poor results with highly processed vegan junk food.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6605
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:13 am

big booty wrote:taste is highly adaptable, and taste appeal highly individual.
Hell, if strict Jains can produce tasty food there's no excuse for the rest of us. Crack out the herbs and spices!

Although high quality ingredients make for a good start....
big booty wrote: On the occasions that I (actually my wife) has grown some veggies there is a world of difference in the taste. I suspect taste has been substituted for storage life and transportation ease with most commercially grown veggies.
There's an old saw about this bloke who wanders up to a couple of old Italian market gardeners and asks: "What sort tomatos should I grow?" The old fellas look at each other quizzically and then one responds: "To sell or to eat?"
big booty wrote:If I was more time rich Id grow my own or visit local markets but I do not have that luxury.
A little homework can go a long way: finding non-corporate food vendors in your area is step #1. It might be some ethnic grocer or hippy "organic" shop or upmarket "foodie" outlet.

But I agree that there's a huge opportunity for a delivery service for minimal storage, minimal miles, organic (for a bunch of reasons) foodstuffs.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users