Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:05 pm

CKinnard wrote:If they were Chinese nationals, yes they are really big into supplements. Blackmores, Swisse, and Nature's Own are killing it over there at the moment. For as long as the Chinese remain comparatively uneducated, there will enormous potential to exploit that ignorance.
Yip, they had no idea what vitamins they needed, the quantities etc and this is recoginised by the vitamin companies, evident in the way they market the products.

I didn't get to see if they were buying a fibre supplement...
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:08 pm

CKinnard wrote:Here's the chart re Aussie eating habits. Not good.

Image
That's a shocker and at the same time I'm not surprised

What is the Govt. recommending for daily serves?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:06 pm

5 and 2 minimum (vege and fruit)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:41 pm

5 and 2? If a serve is a cup I doubt I have that much. And Im not meaning I have other food stuffs to compensate, just saying I think that's an awful lot of food. I might have 2 or 3 cups of veggies and 1/2 cup of fruit. Is this based on the food pyramid that advocates 6 serves of grains a day? If I had 6 serves of grain a day id be the size of a house.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:21 pm

CKinnard wrote:5 and 2 minimum (vege and fruit)
I'm definitely doing the Govt vege recommendation but I'm probably about 1.5 on the fruit
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:58 am

big booty wrote:5 and 2? If a serve is a cup I doubt I have that much. And Im not meaning I have other food stuffs to compensate, just saying I think that's an awful lot of food. I might have 2 or 3 cups of veggies and 1/2 cup of fruit. Is this based on the food pyramid that advocates 6 serves of grains a day? If I had 6 serves of grain a day id be the size of a house.
recommended number of average serves of each food group:
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... ly-intakes

size of each serve
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/natio ... ard-serves

I think I have alluded before these serve sizes are too variable. i.e. the serve size for raw vege is 1 cup, while cooked vege is 1/2 cup. This is an anachronistic hangover from 50+ years ago when most people boiled their vege, to death. If you lightly steam or microwave your vege, they don't shrink in size, so there's no need to reduce by 50% the size of a serve of cooked vege. The majority of sports dietitians I have dealings with use 1 cup for both raw and cooked. If you look at the other food groups, there is enormous variation in the energy content of individual items. Dietitians assume this broad spread averages to the mean as people vary what they eat. But this doesn't work as well for people who restrict their diet, such as vegans.

re grains, a serve is a cooked half cup. that equals ~100 Calories. if you add up the total Cals for all food groups for adult men:
vege 6 = 150 Cals
fruit 2 = 130 Cals
grains 6 = 600 Cals
protein 3 = 450 Cals
dairy/alts 2.5 = 375 Cals

Total = 1700 Calories

That's the average BMI for the majority of non overweight men. So not a lot of food unless you weigh much less than 75kg.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:09 am

mikesbytes wrote:
CKinnard wrote:5 and 2 minimum (vege and fruit)
I'm definitely doing the Govt vege recommendation but I'm probably about 1.5 on the fruit
AU govt rec for men:
6 veg (75g serve) for < 51yo
2 fruit (150g serve)
6 grain (119.5 Cal serve) for < 71yo.
https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-es ... ves-adults
https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-es ... erve-sizes

I believe the veg and fruit is too low and grains is possibly too high for the average person. For people who avoid all animal products and keep grains low, it's reasonably easy to get double of the rec for fruit and veg.
CKinnard wrote:That's the average BMI for the majority of non overweight men.
BMR?
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:24 am

how does a normal person allocate their 6 serves of grains into their day? 2 serves per meal? wow, seems crazy high. anyone care to offer examples of a daily meal plan that includes 6 serves of grains?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:39 am

march83 wrote:how does a normal person allocate their 6 serves of grains into their day? 2 serves per meal? wow, seems crazy high. anyone care to offer examples of a daily meal plan that includes 6 serves of grains?
Regular breakfast, sometimes lunch for me.

Breakfast:
75g of dried oats which is 217g once water has absorbed. This is 266 Cal, or 2.1 serves for breakfast (plus fruit and linseed).

Lunch:
150g dry brown rice, or 600g cooked. This is 492 Cal, or 4.1 serves (plus about 400 - 500g of veg).

Total is 6.3 serves.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:20 pm

Nobody wrote:brown rice, or 600g cooked
falling asleep at my desk just reading that...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:06 pm

Nobody wrote:AU govt rec for men:
6 veg (75g serve) for < 51yo
2 fruit (150g serve)
Recommending as gms is a little easier to understand than serves

When they are giving an age range, in this case < 51yo, what are they suggesting for those older?

march83 wrote:
Nobody wrote:brown rice, or 600g cooked
falling asleep at my desk just reading that...
Have you had your serves of coffee :)

I too would struggle with 600gms of cooked brown rice, is that about 3/4 cup uncooked?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:43 pm

march83 wrote:how does a normal person allocate their 6 serves of grains into their day? 2 serves per meal? wow, seems crazy high. anyone care to offer examples of a daily meal plan that includes 6 serves of grains?
cereal for breakfast, 2 slices bread for lunch, at least 1 cup rice/pasta for dinner. and that's without considering muesli bars or such for snacks.

I'd like to know how anyone not totally sedentary struggles NOT to get 6 serves of grains.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:00 pm

Breakfast, I get 1 serve: berries with yoghurt and a small scoop of oats.
Lunch is salad, typically lettuce, tomato, cucumber, onion, salmon, a serve of legumes (chickpeas, lentils, beans) and sweet potato.
We basically never eat rice or pasta for dinner. Normally it's lots and lots of vegies (brocc, zucc, peas, potato) with a small serve of protein (fish or meat).

We buy bread maybe once a week so i might have toast on the weekend and I typically eat sushi twice a week so i'm maybe reaching 6 serves a week...

that's on 8-12hrs a week training...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:32 pm

march83 wrote:Breakfast, I get 1 serve: berries with yoghurt and a small scoop of oats.
Lunch is salad, typically lettuce, tomato, cucumber, onion, salmon, a serve of legumes (chickpeas, lentils, beans) and sweet potato.
We basically never eat rice or pasta for dinner. Normally it's lots and lots of vegies (brocc, zucc, peas, potato) with a small serve of protein (fish or meat).

We buy bread maybe once a week so i might have toast on the weekend and I typically eat sushi twice a week so i'm maybe reaching 6 serves a week...

that's on 8-12hrs a week training...
that's a good diet, but I query whether that's all you are eating to sustain 10hrs a week of training.
i.e.
Bfast : berries 60 Calories, yogurt (say half a cup (AT) 80 Calories), 1/4 cup oats = 30g = 110 Cals ......250 Calories
Lunch : vege 2 cups 50 Cals, salmon 100g 140Cals, legumes 1/2 cup 100 Cals, sweet potato 1? cup 50 Cals......340 Calories
Dinner : 100 g protein 125 Cals, 4 cups vege 100 Cals .......225 Cals.
Total Cals = 815 Calories.

how about snacks, gels, alcohol, etc.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:44 pm

those servings are too small and don't account for condiments like cooking oils or snacks, etc

breakfast, double the berries, add more yoghurt, 100g = 125cal. muesli includes nuts and dried fruits, 50g = 200cal.
double the size of the lunch and dinner. more salmon, more sweet potato. sweet potato is cooked in coconut oil, etc
dinner, veggies are cooked in an oil (olive, coconut or butter)
for snacks, add 1-1.5kg per week of berries, ~1kg of raw veg (cherry toms, carrots, cucumber), 3-4 cups of milk tea a day, 1 milk coffee, occasional spoon of nut butter or handful of nuts. I don't drink.

during exercise over 1hr i eat ~1 "piece" of food per hour where 1 piece may be banana or perpetuem bar and drink about 1 scoop of hammer. for exercise under an hour i make no intentional changes.

When I'm inactive i put on weight eating over 1800cals and I'm 186cm, 90kg so I figure my BMR is at the lower end of the normal range. fwiw, i'm trying to drop weight at the moment to get into the low 80s before the audax alpine next january and i'm dropping weight at the rate of about 1kg every 2 weeks.

If i were to eat 6 servings of grain a day I'd be fighting to stay awake after every meal. I already avoid bread, cereals, rice etc if i need to drive anywhere because i get drowsy otherwise.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:56 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I too would struggle with 600gms of cooked brown rice, is that about 3/4 cup uncooked?
Because it's too much or too boring?

Yes it's 3/4 cup dry.

If it's because it's too much, then you may not think that way once you get get more used to a lower Cal density diet.
If it's because it too firm, then you need to cook it for longer, or use a pressure cooker. I cook mine using absorption method for over an hour, or 30 mins cooking time in a pressure cooker. Either way is OK for me.
If too bland, then you can get used to it. Yesterday I ate 480g of boiled potatos with 220 broccoli, 200 cauliflower, 110g of beans and 2g of turmeric. No other flavorings. It was OK, although I thought it wouldn't be. But then after nearly 3 years I'm getting very used to it. Since my diet is fairly basic, my taste is now OK with bland. That's an advantage. I even ate plain iceberg lettuce for a snack yesterday. Nothing with it.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:05 pm

march83 wrote:If i were to eat 6 servings of grain a day I'd be fighting to stay awake after every meal. I already avoid bread, cereals, rice etc if i need to drive anywhere because i get drowsy otherwise.
Keep in mind that adding animal products to the above doubles your insulin spike.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:49 pm

Nobody wrote:
march83 wrote:If i were to eat 6 servings of grain a day I'd be fighting to stay awake after every meal. I already avoid bread, cereals, rice etc if i need to drive anywhere because i get drowsy otherwise.
Keep in mind that adding animal products to the above doubles your insulin spike.
prove it
Masi Speciale CX 2008 - Brooks B17 special saddle, Garmin Edge 810
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:24 pm

Genuinely interested: animal products increasing insulin spike, is that really a thing? If so I'm interested to hear worst offenders so I can avoid them.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:07 pm

march83 wrote:Genuinely interested...
Posted a reply in the Diet Thread here.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:57 am

march83 wrote:those servings are too small and don't account for condiments like cooking oils or snacks, etc

during exercise over 1hr i eat ~1 "piece" of food per hour where 1 piece may be banana or perpetuem bar and drink about 1 scoop of hammer. for exercise under an hour i make no intentional changes.

When I'm inactive i put on weight eating over 1800cals and I'm 186cm, 90kg so I figure my BMR is at the lower end of the normal range. fwiw, i'm trying to drop weight at the moment to get into the low 80s before the audax alpine next january and i'm dropping weight at the rate of about 1kg every 2 weeks.

If i were to eat 6 servings of grain a day I'd be fighting to stay awake after every meal. I already avoid bread, cereals, rice etc if i need to drive anywhere because i get drowsy otherwise.
I think the confusion created by your original diet report and the latter is rooted in

1.
comprehension of serve sizes.
i.e.
a serve of fruit is 1 cup, and a cup of mixed berries weighs ~150grams. and 150g = 71 Calories (from Calorie King - McCain Season's Choice 4 Berry Frozen Mix)


2.
appreciation of the additional Calories in processed foods
i.e.
- plain yogurt is never over 1 Cal/ml (or gram). if it is, it is not plain, but has other products added, such as sugars. yogurt generally has the same Calorie content as the milk it is made from. bacteria just convert some of the Calories into different forms of energy.
- muesli might have oats in it, but it is wrong to refer to it as oats, other ingredients like nuts and dried fruit blow its Calorie density out to a much higher level.


Regarding your going to sleep if you eat carbs, it sounds to me like you are taking 5 caffeine drinks a day to stave off fatigue anyway. This is often a symptom of insulin resistance and compromised ability to mobilize fatty acids stored in your fat cells. This is explained physiologically by having adrenal insufficiency, whereby your adrenal glands and sympathetic nerves do not stimulate fat cells to release fatty acids when needed. This is commonly seen with chronic stress when adrenalin pathways are countered by stress hormones like cortisol, and the autonomic nervous system is dysregulated.

In the old days, diet pills were sold that stimulated the adrenals and sympathetics. they were essentially amphetamines, and work like a strong dose of caffeine. But over time, they are no good for your nerves or endocrine function.

I just spent 3 months in the USA doing an internship at a specialist health center that deals with this stuff. And their solution for reliance on stimulants such as caffeine, salt, oil, and sugar is to remove them from your diet totally, preferably beginning with a water fast of 7-21 days duration. You'll go through 5-10 days of withdrawal, but then begin to stabilize. Unfortunately, most health care professionals have no education in the profound therapeutic effects of such simple interventions, nor personal experience even if they are chronically obese.

Finally, I think one of the points the low carb advocates are ill informed about is that fat is a comfort food used to quell psycho-emotional stress. Our closest genetic relatives, chimps and bonobos, thrive on a diet with trivial levels of high fat % foods. So, a high fat diet masks deeper chronic stressors that have dysregulated fat and glucose metabolism, and therefore will never restore someone to optimal long term health.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:58 am

CKinnard wrote:Our closest genetic relatives, chimps and bonobos, thrive on a diet with trivial levels of high fat % foods.
They also don't ride a bicycle 300+ km a week.
I *choose* to be low-carb, it works for me.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:28 pm

So CK have you bitten the bullet and started fasting as part of your regimen? Its good for the mind, and soul as well as the body. Get that liver of yours functioning like it should be. Six months from now you'll be wondering why you didn't do it years ago.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:54 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Our closest genetic relatives, chimps and bonobos, thrive on a diet with trivial levels of high fat % foods.
They also don't ride a bicycle 300+ km a week.
I *choose* to be low-carb, it works for me.
I also spent a few days with Team Sky on my last trip....and shared a few meals. News flash. The riders don't do low carb. It doesn't work for them. And who knows, maybe you'd perform better on their diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:48 pm

big booty wrote:So CK have you bitten the bullet and started fasting as part of your regimen? Its good for the mind, and soul as well as the body. Get that liver of yours functioning like it should be. Six months from now you'll be wondering why you didn't do it years ago.
I did 7 weeks of fasting totally on Mondays. That was a bit hard. So I have spent the last 3 weeks not eating anything before midday, so giving myself a window of 2 meals between 12p and 8p. That seemed to work better for a few weeks, but then I noted I was getting a bit binge-y in the evenings. My primary 'issue' is I have been quite busy with fingers in several pies, which has meant more socializing over meals (and less riding)...and wine has featured regularly in that. Some very good wines. As well as a lot of cooking on my part for guests. In the last few months, I was enjoying baked vege (sweet potato, pumpkin, onion, etc), salmon 3 times, and a small serve of red meat twice.

But....as my trousers and shirts have started to get tighter again, I am firming on the commitment to not drink Sun-Thu!

So as usual, for me diet and weight are correlated with stressors. But at least I know and have no excuses. I know it is possible to have no cravings when not eating anything for over 2 weeks.

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