Plant Based Diet Thread

[big booty]

7 weeks is a good effort, Im a little surprised it wasn't becoming easier by that stage. It took me about a month before I was "comfortable" with fasting. It wasn't easy but it was do-able. I noticed a big shift at about the 6 month mark. All of a sudden it was easy, like riding a bike. Didn't have to think about it, wasn't a chore anymore.

Bingey. What are you having for lunch? For me I avoid now any grain based food including rice. You may be fighting 10 thousand years of Darwinian selection CK. I think we are hard wired to binge, it gave us a survival advantage. The feast or famine scenario. Fast forward 10,000 years and it now works against us. For me eating grain based foods plays havoc with my satiety signals.

Luckily I have very simple tastes in food. I just sit down with my raw veggie salad for dinner most nights. Sometimes I'll add tuna or cheese or tofu. Some salad dressing and a big dose of apple cider vinegar for zest. My wife pays me out saying how can you eat that.....every night.

[march83]

@CK, Sorry i wasn't clearer, I was just trying to demonstrate that i do typically get a serve of grain in the form of oats. Since we're getting down to fine details, my breakfast contains 1 serve of grains made up of oats which is contained in muesli/granola. i make the "muesli" myself by mixing nuts, raw oats and dried fruit which totals up to somewhere around 3-400cal/100g i think.

idk about processed yoghurt. I'm eating aldi pot set, the ingredients say skim milk, cream and cultures, so... It's like 120cals/100g: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calori ... -334170956

I drink 2 coffees a day, black, pretty small. decaf tea, never caffeinated soft drinks. idk, seems like a pretty average intake to me. I'm definitely not low carb, but. I eat heaps of starchy tubers (mostly potato and sweet potato) and legumes and they don't leave my energy levels plummeting after a meal like sandwiches and bowls of rice do. going back to the original point i was trying to make i just don't see how i would fit 5 more serves of grain into my diet without displacing a whole lot of "better" stuff like veggies. by extension, i wonder the same about other people.

FWIW, i did about a year of 16hr fasts per day every day and for energy levels and mental acuity it was wonderful. I would eat lunch a 12, dinner at 7 and then fast the rest of the time. In reality I was just skipping breakfast and I didn't miss it after a few weeks. Eventually I stopped because it was too much of a hassle to get a ~1000cal lunch together every day for work when i was moving between different offices but i still make a habit of eating breakfast as late as possible because eating early just seems unnecessary.

[Nobody]

..i just don't see how i would fit 5 more serves of grain into my diet without displacing a whole lot of "better" stuff like veggies. by extension, i wonder the same about other people.

Like you, I really don't see why anyone has to get 6 serves of grains if they are eating everything else plant based and healthy. I only got 2.2 serves of grains today because I got 13.9 serves of veg (6.8 cruciferous) and 14.7 serves of fruit. I didn't get any serves of the protein or dairy groups, so not getting enough grains is the least of my problems. After reading enough of Jeff Novick's posts on these subjects on the McDougall forum, you probably won't care either. Most national guidelines are misguided anyway. The only ones I take remotely seriously are WHO and I don't think they have all the answers either. Most nutritional studies only really relate to people on western diets and are often funded by industry, or are too reductionist to matter.

[RhapsodyX]

Our closest genetic relatives, chimps and bonobos, thrive on a diet with trivial levels of high fat % foods.

They also don't ride a bicycle 300+ km a week.
I *choose* to be low-carb, it works for me.

I also spent a few days with Team Sky on my last trip....and shared a few meals. News flash. The riders don't do low carb. It doesn't work for them. And who knows, maybe you'd perform better on their diet.

You seriously need to work out what the point is that you are trying to make. First of all you make an anti-LCHF statement and say we (LCHF cyclists) should look to chimps and bonobos, and then suddenly it's "follow Team Sky" - when elite cyclists in their 20's and 30's are almost as relevant to "Mr Average Cyclist" as the chimps and bonobos.

Seriously - I can't be bothered getting into the discussion, but telling people they should just follow what others do because it works for them is completely absurd. Especially when you have recently admitted in this thread that you are putting on weight again. Given you are presenting yourself (whether you recognise it or not) as being an expert in this field - what is that saying about the efficacy of your personal holistic approach?

Must be off - I have a four hour ride to complete.

[CKinnard]

You seriously need to work out what the point is that you are trying to make. First of all you make an anti-LCHF statement and say we (LCHF cyclists) should look to chimps and bonobos, and then suddenly it's "follow Team Sky" - when elite cyclists in their 20's and 30's are almost as relevant to "Mr Average Cyclist" as the chimps and bonobos.

Seriously - I can't be bothered getting into the discussion, but telling people they should just follow what others do because it works for them is completely absurd. Especially when you have recently admitted in this thread that you are putting on weight again. Given you are presenting yourself (whether you recognise it or not) as being an expert in this field - what is that saying about the efficacy of your personal holistic approach?

Must be off - I have a four hour ride to complete.

Seriously, what does the literature report is a chimpanzee's peak and average fat intake?

Team Sky, like all pro teams, ride 300+ km a week. But then, they ride to optimize professional competitiveness.
For all I know, you ride at leisurely touring pace, which one can do on pretty much any diet.

Regarding my holistic approach, are you posing that LCHF is superior to HCLF, or just being condescending because you 'can't be bothered getting into the discussion' and have no facts to back your evidence based belief?

[RhapsodyX]

Regarding my holistic approach, are you posing that LCHF is superior to HCLF, or just being condescending because you 'can't be bothered getting into the discussion' and have no facts to back your evidence based belief?

No, I'm posing that your approach is probably no better than mine (when adhered to), and I'm happy to admit mine isn't mainstream.

Re. the diet of chimps and bonobos - zero relevance to me. Team Sky - well... I'd love to know what Froome & Wiggins actually eat, but the team dietician is a whole foods advocate and reportedly the team members have at least 100g of fat per day.

And that four hours (3:57:39 to be precise) was 3,403 Kj at the cranks (Power2Max Type S standard), including 4 x 15 at SS (3.8W/kg) with the last interval completed at 03:02 of ride time. The rest of the ride was > 2W/kg. The day was 'just' low carb, not keto, 40g of UCan superstarch in one bidon, no other food consumed on the bike. No bonk. Backed up by lunch at The Paleo Cafe in Canberra before the 16km ride home - another 477Kj at the cranks.

[CKinnard]

Regarding my holistic approach, are you posing that LCHF is superior to HCLF, or just being condescending because you 'can't be bothered getting into the discussion' and have no facts to back your evidence based belief?

No, I'm posing that your approach is probably no better than mine (when adhered to), and I'm happy to admit mine isn't mainstream.

Re. the diet of chimps and bonobos - zero relevance to me. Team Sky - well... I'd love to know what Froome & Wiggins actually eat, but the team dietician is a whole foods advocate and reportedly the team members have at least 100g of fat per day.

And that four hours (3:57:39 to be precise) was 3,403 Kj at the cranks (Power2Max Type S standard), including 4 x 15 at SS (3.8W/kg) with the last interval completed at 03:02 of ride time. The rest of the ride was > 2W/kg. The day was 'just' low carb, not keto, 40g of UCan superstarch in one bidon, no other food consumed on the bike. No bonk. Backed up by lunch at The Paleo Cafe in Canberra before the 16km ride home - another 477Kj at the cranks.

1. my approach is no better than yours for what? cycling performance? ok, over what period of time? this year, or the rest of your life?
if you consider the latter, you have to abide by the published literature, if you are into the science, and accept the longevity advantage rests with plant based whole food high carb low fat. there are no studies showing a LCHF diet matches HCLF for longevity advantage.

2. and cycling performance for turbos or diesels?

3. you implied or stated, I can't work out which, my chimps/bonobos comment is an anti-LCHF, but then you can't work out its relevance to your diet. Huh? You follow a Paleo diet because you buy into the myth that it is superior for our genes. Here's some reading to help clarify why chimp diet is relevant.

Cerling TE, Chritz KL, Jablonski NG, Leakey MG, Manthi FK. Diet of theropithecus from 4 to 1 ma in kenya. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Jun 25;110(26):10507-12. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1222571110. Epub 2013 Jun 3. PubMed PMID: 23733967; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3696767.
Cerling TE, Manthi FK, Mbua EN, Leakey LN, Leakey MG, Leakey RE, Brown FH, Grine FE, Hart JA, Kaleme P, Roche H, Uno KT, Wood BA. Stable isotope-based diet reconstructions of Turkana Basin hominins. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Jun 25;110(26):10501-6. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1222568110. Epub 2013 Jun 3. PubMed PMID: 23733966; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3696807.
Katz DL. Pandemic obesity and the contagion of nutritional nonsense. Public Health Rev. 2003;31(1):33-44. PubMed PMID: 14656042.
Manheimer EW, van Zuuren EJ, Fedorowicz Z, Pijl H. Paleolithic nutrition for metabolic syndrome: systematic review and meta-analysis. Am J Clin Nutr. 2015 Oct;102(4):922-32. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.115.113613. Epub 2015 Aug 12. PubMed PMID: 26269362; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC4588744.
Pickering TR, Domínguez-Rodrigo M. Chimpanzee referents and the emergence of human hunting. Open Anthropology Journal. 2010;3:107–113.
Sayers K, Lovejoy CO. Blood, bulbs, and bunodonts: on evolutionary ecology and the diets of Ardipithecus, Australopithecus, and early Homo. Q Rev Biol. 2014 Dec;89(4):319-57. Review. PubMed PMID: 25510078; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC4350785.
Sponheimer M, Alemseged Z, Cerling TE, Grine FE, Kimbel WH, Leakey MG, Lee-Thorp JA, Manthi FK, Reed KE, Wood BA, Wynn JG. Isotopic evidence of early hominin diets. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Jun 25;110(26):10513-8. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1222579110. Epub 2013 Jun 3. PubMed PMID: 23733964; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3696771.
Tarantino G, Citro V, Finelli C. Hype or Reality: Should Patients with Metabolic Syndrome-related NAFLD be on the Hunter-Gatherer (Paleo) Diet to Decrease Morbidity? J Gastrointestin Liver Dis. 2015 Sep;24(3):359-68. doi: 10.15403/jgld.2014.1121.243.gta. Review. PubMed PMID: 26405708.
Watts DP, Potts KB, Lwanga JS, Mitani JC. Diet of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii) at Ngogo, Kibale National Park, Uganda, 1. Diet composition and diversity. Am J Primatol. 2012 Feb;74(2):114-29. doi: 10.1002/ajp.21016. Epub 2011 Nov 22. PubMed PMID: 22109938.
Wynn JG, Sponheimer M, Kimbel WH, Alemseged Z, Reed K, Bedaso ZK, Wilson JN. Diet of Australopithecus afarensis from the Pliocene Hadar Formation, Ethiopia. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Jun 25;110(26):10495-500. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1222559110. Epub 2013 Jun 3. PubMed PMID: 23733965; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3696813.[/i]


4.
Regarding the 100g of fat you read is eaten by Team Sky, they average at least 4-6 hours a day in the saddle (on a typical training day) which leads to a minimal energy expenditure of 4500-5000 Calories/day....so 100g of fat represent < 20% of their total daily Calories.
By definition, a LCHF diet according to the literature aims for carbs <100g, or <20% of total Calories.... and fat >=30% of total Calories.

5.
Re your energy expenditure on the bike, that's typical Chris Carmichael stuff. If you are a seasoned cyclist which you no doubt are if you can ride during the week for 4 hours, then you have no doubt increased your glycogen storage capacity significantly over the years, especially in cycling muscles. Two years ago, I was riding 4+ hour rides at least twice a month, and comfortably did so by eating no more than 2 bananas in the saddle = 45-55 grams of carb (I weighed 85-90kg at the time). Something the Paleo crowd forget is one can keto adapt on a HCLF diet simply by intermittently fasting. i.e. ride 1-2 hours early in the morning and skip breakfast most days. And the whole science of keto adaptation is not well controlled for alternative explanations. i.e. take a cyclist who gradually increases their ride time over several months on on very low carb high fat diet. The other change that is happening simultaneously is stress hormone cortisol gradually drops over the same period, and adrenalin and sympathetic nerve impulses may increase or be less compromised (by cortisol). Adrenalin and sympathetics are essential for mobilizing fatty acids, and metabolizing them. So, keto adaptation may have less to do with the level of carbs one eats, and more to do with reduced stress response, adrenal sufficiency, and healthy autonomic nerve function.

[big booty]

sorry double post

[big booty]

I thought Froome trained on a keto diet which to me makes sense from a competitive viewpoint. If two riders are equally matched running on glucose/glycogen, then the one that is able to convert stored fats and run on ketones to my way of thinking has an advantage. On the assumption that both riders run out of stored glycogen.

I have no idea what my diet is with regards C/F/P percentage but you can keto adapt by doing intermittent fasting. Probably not as effective as going full keto diet but IF will help you get there. Ive been doing it for 11 months now. Initially it was two consecutive days (60 hours) per week. I noticed a distinct change after 6 months. Fasting became easy. I continue to fast one day a week (36 hours) as I do not want to lose any more weight but wish to maintain the benefits it brings.

[warthog1]

I also spent a few days with Team Sky on my last trip....and shared a few meals. News flash. The riders don't do low carb. It doesn't work for them. And who knows, maybe you'd perform better on their diet.

Thanks for clearing that up

[RhapsodyX]

...

1. You really need to work on that thread amnesia. That point was clearly about weight management.
2. See 1.
3. Paleo? Me? Not quite. Your original statement was clearly anti-LC, the "follow the primates" is of zero interest to me.
4. Please stop mixing percentages and absolute weights and muddying the waters by moving the goal posts as you go. For instance : introducing Team Sky to the discussion when the (reportedly) high-protein diet and 100g of fat per day is clearly nothing like WFPB.
5. I don't "do" Chris Carmichael, so I have no idea what point you are trying to make. And I have RQ, BG and B-Ketone data that tells me how I adapt to dietary & feeding changes, and for my N=1 that's all I need.

Anyway - this is way off WFPB, so if you stick to promoting the WFPB & "wellness" point of view and stop "hanging crap" on LC (in its various forms), the world will be a happier place.

[RhapsodyX]

I also spent a few days with Team Sky on my last trip....and shared a few meals. News flash. The riders don't do low carb. It doesn't work for them. And who knows, maybe you'd perform better on their diet.

Thanks for clearing that up

And who might "James P Morton" be?

[CKinnard]

I thought Froome trained on a keto diet which to me makes sense from a competitive viewpoint. If two riders are equally matched running on glucose/glycogen, then the one that is able to convert stored fats and run on ketones to my way of thinking has an advantage. On the assumption that both riders run out of stored glycogen..

A lot of BS is written about cyclist's diets. And LCHF is part of that. There's no competitive advantage in the literature. power and endurance doesn't improve in the short term and long term studies have not been done. Think about what LCHF achieves. It reduces a cyclist's need to take carbs on the bike, by about 30g/hour. That's easily compensated by taking an extra 1/3 of a gel. Now considering the long term effects of consuming a higher fat diet, especially animal fat (chronic systemic inflammation, Neu5gc, advanced glycation end products, gerontotoxins, arachidonic acid, Toll like receptors 2 and 4, bacterial toxins, purines, putrescine, uric acid, IGF-1.

LCHF studies into athletic performance compare LCHF to sub optimal HCLF diet. It's similar to Paleo people who say they feel great since taking up Paleo. Well the reason is they ate crap before. If LCHF'ers want to get serious, let them compare their optimal LCHF diet over 3 years with optimal HCLF. Testosterone and HGH injections give one a performance advantage, in the short term, and screw you up in the long term. Don't be surprised if the lit shows the same about LCHF diet.

Froome was eating a lot of junk earlier in his career. lollies, cake, biscuits, refined grains. His gf and TS dietitians got him into eating more protein and complex carbs, and having smaller meals more often. It helped him get his bodyfat % down and reduce non cycling muscle. The majority of cyclists get the same result on a hclf diet designed by a dietitian. They just have to get through the first few difficult weeks of sugar cravings as their adrenals pancreas and fat metabolism find homeostasis.

The best dietitians and physicians I know believe LCHF diet masks a dysregulated metabolism. And that one can be just as comfortable on HCLF plant based, once metabolism adapts, and stress levels are managed.

To add a bit of balance back to the LCHF frenzy, consider Alan Murray and Janette Murray-Wakelin. They ran 366 marathons on consecutive days in their 60s to set a new Guiness Book of records. What was their diet? Raw Vegan HCLF. It is testament to the recovery advantage offered by such a diet.

[CKinnard]

...

1. You really need to work on that thread amnesia. That point was clearly about weight management.
2. See 1.
3. Paleo? Me? Not quite. Your original statement was clearly anti-LC, the "follow the primates" is of zero interest to me.
4. Please stop mixing percentages and absolute weights and muddying the waters by moving the goal posts as you go. For instance : introducing Team Sky to the discussion when the (reportedly) high-protein diet and 100g of fat per day is clearly nothing like WFPB.
5. I don't "do" Chris Carmichael, so I have no idea what point you are trying to make. And I have RQ, BG and B-Ketone data that tells me how I adapt to dietary & feeding changes, and for my N=1 that's all I need.

Anyway - this is way off WFPB, so if you stick to promoting the WFPB & "wellness" point of view and stop "hanging crap" on LC (in its various forms), the world will be a happier place.

Honestly, why do you want to share with others your N=1 thing, if that's all you need?
The net is full of N=1 who are too illiterate to comprehend their biases, and challenge themselves with a cross over designed experiment.
That you don't comprehend the relevance of percentages and absolute weights writes you out of constructive debate about nutrition.

[mikesbytes]

Whats N=1

[Nobody]

Whats N=1

Number of subjects in a study is usually depicted as "n=XX". N=1 usually indicates self study.

[RhapsodyX]

Honestly, why do you want to share with others your N=1 thing, if that's all you need?
The net is full of N=1 who are too illiterate to comprehend their biases, and challenge themselves with a cross over designed experiment.
That you don't comprehend the relevance of percentages and absolute weights writes you out of constructive debate about nutrition.

Share what? I'm not the one offering unsolicited advice.

As for my comprehension or percentages vs relative weights, when are you going to accept the preference of researchers to express protein requirements as grams relative to lean or total body mass and adjust the fat/carbohydrate numbers accordingly instead of blindly applying F/C/P percentages to *estimated* calorie numbers. The whole thing is a load of rubbish anyway, and anyone who thinks that some magic number should be followed regardless of exercise duration and intensity deserves everything they get.

And nutrition *should* be all about N=1, as the response to diet and exercise is precisely that - individual.

[CKinnard]

Whats N=1

Number of subjects in a study is usually depicted as "n=XX". N=1 usually indicates self study.

Adding to Nobody, N=1 is the traditional means for indicating 1 subject in a scientific study.
Every scientist of my vintage or older uses N=1, but a quick google reveals N of 1, or N1 is current vogue....no doubt in 20 years it will probably flip back to N=1.

Rhapsody, I honestly cannot be bothered engaging you further. Everything I need to know about LCHF is in the literature.
And in May this year in Santa Monica, I spent a breakfast with Team Sky sports physician Derick Mcleod discussing many things including keto adaptation. He was also very interested to know about the water fasting at True North Health and the ketosis it relies on. I wrote a report on my internship there for him after I finished, and we've discussed the relative pros and cons of pro cyclists experimenting with water fasting followed by several weeks on vegan HCLF (excluding salt, oil, sugar), as a means to facilitate turnover of many cell lines in the body, especially red blood cells and immune cells. But then, you don't believe there's anything to learn from nutrition for pro cyclists.

Regarding percentages vs grams, I didn't raise Team Sky as an example of PBWF diet. I did it to show their 100g fat intake doesn't meet LCHF diet criteria. You are obviously very confused, by your bias in thinking what applies to you applies generally to others, in contradiction to the science.

[Nobody]

Probably the most interesting video of the year from Greger.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/should- ... -function/

I find interesting that I've seen him recommend DHA supplements on an interview video by someone else, but he didn't recommend it in his book IIRC. Maybe because the studies weren't conclusive enough when the book was written.

Just to show he isn't the only one concerned about DHA for older vegans.
http://veganhealth.org/articles/omega3#veganDHA

Then there is the other side of the argument with T.C Campbell saying DHA supplementation is a scam. Which I agree with if you can measure that you're getting enough.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/view ... 15#p385752
That is why if you're considering supplementing, it's probably a good idea to get a blood test called "Omega-3 Index" to find out if you have a problem first. That's because algae derived EPA/DHA supplements are expensive. I intend to get this test done.

[RhapsodyX]

Rhapsody, I honestly cannot be bothered engaging you further. Everything I need to know about LCHF is in the literature.

Oh dear, I'm heartbroken. Now I won't have to feel like I'm reading from the "wellness/vegan copy book".

And in May this year in Santa Monica, I spent a breakfast with Team Sky sports physician Derick Mcleod discussing many things including keto adaptation. He was also very interested to know about the water fasting at True North Health and the ketosis it relies on. I wrote a report on my internship there for him after I finished, and we've discussed the relative pros and cons of pro cyclists experimenting with water fasting followed by several weeks on vegan HCLF (excluding salt, oil, sugar), as a means to facilitate turnover of many cell lines in the body, especially red blood cells and immune cells.

How did they take it when you told them they were doing it all wrong?

But then, you don't believe there's anything to learn from nutrition for pro cyclists.

Feel free to quote where I wrote that.

Regarding percentages vs grams, I didn't raise Team Sky as an example of PBWF diet. I did it to show their 100g fat intake doesn't meet LCHF diet criteria. You are obviously very confused, by your bias in thinking what applies to you applies generally to others, in contradiction to the science.

My comment was "at least 100g" as per quotes of the Team Sky dietician. Can you find a single reference where they say they are following a LCHF diet program or train in ketosis? I didn't think so, but don't let the facts get in the way of telling other people how they should eat. And, as you've eaten with the Team Sky riders, we'd all love to see the in depth report of their individual daily diets for various training days (endurance, specific skills days etc.).
Re. confusion... Really. Go ahead and find a single example where I have stated what applies to me applies generally to others. Good luck with that one.

[warthog1]

Rhapsody, I honestly cannot be bothered engaging you further. Everything I need to know about LCHF is in the literature.

That's a pity

Thanks for the correcting some of the misinformation anyway. I think you underestimate the importance of your contribution from that standpoint.

[CKinnard]

I was surprised that NutritionFacts have not covered the protein sub hormone FGF21 yet. It's the latest and greatest in therapeutic potential for obesity and diabetes, and longevity.

And guess what! A high carb, low fat and protein diet best increases FGF21, in addition to improving insulin sensitivity, glucose tolerance, blood lipids, and blood pressure.

http://sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/ ... ormon.html

Health Report October 3, 2016
https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pg ... ?play=true

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/0 ... d-for-you/

Now, you may be wondering what this ratio of carbs to protein is. Well, it's higher than you thought.

"We found that the optimum combination of protein and carbohydrates was one protein for 10 carbohydrates. So, a one in 10 ratio," Solon-Biet told HuffPost Australia.

"This is interesting because it seems to coincide beautifully with the diet of the Okinawan people of Japan, who are actually the longest lived population in the world. It's called the Okinawan diet."

[Nobody]

Thanks for posting CK.

It's an isolated mouse study, so maybe that is one reason why Greger hasn't done anything with it (yet). Also Greger tends to bring a number of studies together to make a video.

As said before, I notice that more beans mean weight gain for me. I suspect the added protein for that. I may be more sensitive than others since many report the opposite. But they may be reducing fat and protein by substitution with beans on a western diet.

As for carb to protein ratios, today mine was 7.7 with beans and would have been 8.3 without beans. While a C80:F10:P10 diet is obviously 8. One may be able to get to C82:F9.8:P8.2 fairly easily, which may require dodging some high protein grains, legumes and veg (like broccoli). Looking at the foods I would need to cut reminds me of how reductionist this concept is.

I saw an older video from Jeff Novick which stated that calorie restriction was significantly life lengthening. And more importantly, squaring the health decay curve as we age. As you know, Greger has a more recent video showing it's more about avoiding specific proteins (often found in animal products the most).

From the first link:

"These findings take us one step closer to understanding how FGF21 works, and as an extension of that to be able to use FGF21 to help people live longer and healthier lives."

Can't help but think that (as usual) they have taken a reductionist view and are looking (once again) to try to bottle a good diet into a pill big pharma can sell. If they didn't, they probably couldn't get funding. The sad reality of modern science.

From the Huff link:

"Mice that are on a very high-protein diet are much leaner. They have a lot less body fat and they have more muscle mass, but in the long run they have worse health and a shorter life."

Reminds me of those super lean bodybuilders with almost no body fat. They may look idealistic, but...

"I'm not a dietitian but I think it's really safe to say that if we were to generalise these findings into humans, I would say moderate [no] amounts of lean protein [animal products] in the diet, and high in complex, slowly digested carbohydrate to promote gut health would be the way to go."

Fixed that for her.

[CKinnard]

yes I read the full huffpo article. Samantha is the same scientist as in the health report.
she is quite the naive in my view. and her generalized view that eating higher protein when younger and reducing as one ages, has huge holes which she obviously is too naive and poorly read to have considered.

Samantha is a good example of why scientists should not be treated as authorities on anything outside their narrow specialty, as they regularly broadcast opinions about stuff they are not sufficiently familiar with.

I think she did say that the FGF21 work on mice correlates with human studies.
Samantha is an overly emotive intellectual lightweight in my view, but she is correct that FGF21 is attracting a lot of attention, and the center she works in is highly respected by its peers.

[mikesbytes]

The problem with studies done with other species is that the dietary requirements of other species is different making the analysis of the results that much harder to understand.

Nobody, by saying that you are putting on some extra weight, I'm assuming you are referring to fat. As you know, if you are eating more protein than is required then the excess is converted to storage for use later when there is insufficient calories available, such as when Coles goes bankrupt I too are guilty of carrying around a little too much fat, though I look slim compared with the general population.

Longer life thru restricted calorie intake is something I've heard many times and I'm inclined to agree with the statement having seen a couple of doco's about places where the people live really old and the two factors are an active live and restricted calories. Know of a link to an article about this, that is easy to read, ie not a science paper? I'd like to share it with a friend