Plant Based Diet Thread

[march83]

Are there any studies which look at restricted calories and regular exercise? the 2 seem somewhat in opposition to each other. On one hand, you're trying to keep your BMR at its lower bound, while the other is forcing it to its upper bound. Interested to hear if the 2 can work in harmony.

[Nobody]

Nobody, by saying that you are putting on some extra weight, I'm assuming you are referring to fat.

Pinch around my middle and waist measurements suggest adding fat.

I too are guilty of carrying around a little too much fat, though I look slim compared with the general population.

Not hard to do with an population average BMI of 27. I sometimes get asked if I'm well, or if I've been doing a lot of exercise. The concept of just a healthy diet change having such a great effect is alien to the average person IMO.

...where the people live really old and the two factors are an active life and restricted calories. Know of a link to an article about this, that is easy to read, ie not a science paper? I'd like to share it with a friend

No, sorry. From what I see, calorie restriction is not a popular enough subject to write general articles about in a world where the vast majority of people are "live to eat". Maybe CK has bookmarked something.

[CKinnard]

Re restricted Cals and active life, I think we should clarify what activity we have evolved for - not cycling, not running, not obsessive weightlifting. Active life historically means tending gardens, and a bit of fishing, hunting, building stuff. But all in a relaxed mindset.

I will keep saying that the greatest longevity evidence is for cultures such as traditional Okinawans, Italian provincials, Mexican mountains, etc. And they all consume a little animal produce and alcohol. There's no evidence across multiple generations for the effects of vegan like diets. Unfortunate but true. Every longevity advantage of vegan or purely plant based whole food diets is speculation from animal models and reductionist human studies.

And let's keep in mind, it is by no means all diet. The Blue Zone core principles are all important - belief in an afterlife, not letting stress build, if not enough time to do something today, do it tomorrow, etc. We have to prioritize these things as much as diet. And certainly so in this day and age. So many of us obsessively search for the right macro ratio, or the right supplement...and we totally forget about having a bloody good belly laugh every now and then.

Regarding restricted Cals, that also is extrapolated from numerous animal studies, but is supported by longevity being heavily associated with lower bodyfat % in humans....but not stupid low!

OK, as my father used to say, I've got to go see a man about a dog!

[mikesbytes]

Wiki has a write up on the Okinawa diet and the impact of the changes towards Japanese and Western diets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

[Nobody]

This latest McDougall newsletter has a bit on calorie restriction reasoning.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2016nl ... cancer.htm

I've been doing a bit of calorie restriction lately to get down to summer weight. By both reducing my food intake a bit and (like in the article) further reducing the caloric density of my food. BMI of 20.7 as of this morning.

[Nobody]

Re restricted Cals and active life, I think we should clarify what activity we have evolved for - not cycling, not running, not obsessive weightlifting. Active life historically means tending gardens, and a bit of fishing, hunting, building stuff. But all in a relaxed mindset.

Agree. This study shows that the mortality rate of high intensity exercisers is only marginally better than the sedentary.

I will keep saying that the greatest longevity evidence is for cultures such as traditional Okinawans, Italian provincials, Mexican mountains, etc. And they all consume a little animal produce and alcohol. There's no evidence across multiple generations for the effects of vegan like diets. Unfortunate but true. Every longevity advantage of vegan or purely plant based whole food diets is speculation from animal models and reductionist human studies.

The Blue Zones also highlights the Loma Linda Adventists.

The China Project on which the book The China Study is based, is supposed to indicate a correlation between reduced animal product intake in humans and a reduced all cause mortality rate. With that the average lifespan age in the population should increase.

In the end, if you increase the intake of foods known to be good for health and eliminate those which are known to cause harm (assuming you cover all known deficiency gaps) then health should increase. True? I'm aiming to "square off" the graph of health decline versus age, rather than necessarily live longer in this system. Living longer may be just a side effect. To that end I will be looking at further supplementation in the future.

Regarding restricted Cals, that also is extrapolated from numerous animal studies, but is supported by longevity being heavily associated with lower bodyfat % in humans....but not stupid low!

I don't think any of us are in danger of having "stupid low" body fat any time soon.

[rapunzel]

Anecdotal for the plant based diet thread...... haven't looked up anything on this, just found it personally interesting. As someone who hasn't historically felt defined as a big meat eater, and having been pretty disgusted by the thought of most meat while pregnant, I was mildly surprised at just how much meat I started craving while breastfeeding. I could eat it at every single meal. Radically different feeling for me.

[CKinnard]

Re Blue Zones, the SDA with the highest longevity advantage is pescatorians. Vegans come in second, and the group is not actually 100% vegan. From memory SDAs categorized vegan can eat small amounts of animal flesh.

THe China Study has no 100% strict vegans either afaik. I believe there is an inference of vegan health advantage from that study's observation that the less animal produce eaten, the less incidence of various morbidities and a lower death rate. However, to totally exclude animal produce altogether has no cultural example.

Re exercise, personally I think a lot of people who do high intensity exercise use it to de-stress, and they get addicted to associated endorphins enkephalins dopamine. I'll include me in that group.
But I also think there are superior ways of managing stress via more productive and less damaging physical activity.

Nobody, longevity advantage correlates with morbidity advantage.

[Nobody]

Re Blue Zones, the SDA with the highest longevity advantage is pescatorians. Vegans come in second, and the group is not actually 100% vegan. From memory SDAs categorized vegan can eat small amounts of animal flesh.

I suspect this might be due to the intake of sufficient PUFAs since the aging body in many cases doesn't appear to be able to make enough anymore. Since I don't think the animal protein from fish is healthy for the microbiome and I don't think PCBs, mercury and other bio-accumulative pollutants are going to help either. The thought drives me to consider getting my omega-3 index tested sooner rather than later in life. I was going to wait until December, but I might get some tests done next month. If it's under 4% (likely) I'll supplement EPA/DHA. Like I implied above in my previous post, there are plenty of smaller studies pointing to individual food types as dangerous or beneficial. Heeding them along with supplementation should get us close to the ideal modern diet. So far I'm taking B-12 and linseed daily, plus sun baking to get vitamin D.

Vegan/plant_based is not historically proven as the best diet. But with the right supplementation suited to the individual, it can become the ideal diet for the majority according to the shorter term science.
For new readers; links below to show the statement above isn't just my opinion:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-di ... recommend/
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/iss ... ition.html
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-c ... ooklet.pdf
KP's 21 Day Plant Power Challenge

[CKinnard]

But with the right supplementation suited to the individual, it can become the ideal diet for the majority according to the shorter term science.

That's still an inference, so I cannot professionally promote supplemented 100% PBWF diet as that scientifically validated with the greatest longevity advantage. Though based on my readings and experience over 40 years of interest in nutrition and health, I think that will come out in due course. However, as I keep repeating, other lifestyle factors will no doubt be found to have powerful effects on longevity advantage, and hence will cloud the picture on which diet is optimal.

[Nobody]

Though based on my readings and experience over 40 years of interest in nutrition and health, I think that will come out in due course.

Probably.
Fortunately I don't need to wait for the long term observational studies to chase my ideal diet. Late next month I'm planning to get a blood test for omega-3 index, HCY, A1C, Vit-D, TSH and lipids. That is on top of the usual hemo tests like hsCRP. It should give me further pointers.

Today's diet:
17.2 serves of veg (inc 5.6 cruciferous, 0.7 legumes)
12.9 serves of fruit
2.2 serves of grains
1 serve of nuts/seeds
C81:F8:P11
Not much processing. SOS free. Just water for drinking.
About 2400 Cal, which is about 400 Cal below my norm earlier this year. Plus I'm pulling another approx 500 Cal out on most cycling days so far, which is a low hunger day for me. Now aiming for a low 20 BMI by summer, which will easily be my lightest adult weight so far.

I've been eating vegan for more than 3 years now, with a WFPB focus for about half of that. Can't say it's been easy or smooth sailing for me. But I'm a long way ahead of my previous diet and I think I still have improvements to make.

However, as I keep repeating, other lifestyle factors will no doubt be found to have powerful effects on longevity advantage, and hence will cloud the picture on which diet is optimal.

Worthwhile repeating, but not much more I can do in regard to some of them.
Yes, I agree there is more to learn about longevity other than diet.
I'm far more interested in "squaring" the health versus age decay curve, than pure longevity. Not much fun suffering for the final 10 years, whatever the age.

[CKinnard]

I repeat that longevity is always "associated" with decreased morbidity and increase physical independence. So when longevity is mentioned, presume longer physical and mental independence. As soon as one's physical activity decreases, their longevity is compromised.
That's generally true, but there are Yogi's and Monks who live long with very sedentary lives of meditation.

Meanwhile, I just spent 4 days down at Girraween National Park and did a lot of challenging hiking. It's certainly a different stress on the body, particularly the feet, knees, and back in my case. Nevertheless, a day of rest and I am feeling normal and put in a very strong 1 hour at the local criterium track this arvo.

I have a female friend who eats very similar to me - eats animal flesh 1-2 times per fortnight. The rest of the time it is fruit, salads, steamed vege, sweet potato, and legume chilis. She is a brilliant example of over 50s physical strength and endurance, and mental/emotional toughness. She inspires so many at her workplace and in her personal life.

I like this vid a lot. Renal function is lost quicker than many other body functions apart from special senses.

[Nobody]

Yes, the kidney video appears concise.

This article seems timely.
http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/10/11/wh ... ttle-meat/

For me it's not about what was done historically, animal welfare, or who appears to be doing well by eating some meat. It's about applying what the science says to get the best diet. So far that means 100% plant food of a mix that suits the individual for optimal health and supplementation where necessary.

[CKinnard]

what the science says today it very likely won't say in 20 years.
I still recall when I went vego in the 70s that doctors, dietitians, and govt guidelines were against vego diets. And the science wasn't developed enough to support it.

It's possible a high % of the health benefits people are looking for from diet, may actually be dependent on anxiety state and sleep quality. Keep in mind Aboriginals die (from malabsorption) when the bone is pointed at them, no matter their diet; and anxiety state dysregulates endocrine functions controlling systemic inflammation and tissue repair.

[Nobody]

Greger is trying to be more clear and concise in his latest summary videos.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not ... -pressure/

Yes, I'd like to have blood pressure that goes down as I age like the Kenyans. So far it's been 115/65 for two years in a row, measured by my GP.

[big booty]

I felt my blood pressure going up just listening to Greger. OK on a more serious note there are many stressors that will affect blood pressure, and yes diet is a biggy. As soon as my GP says he's going to take my BP I tense up. The act of placing the pressure pad around my arm, I can feel the tension rising. He takes the reading, says calm down and repeats it. Both systolic and diastolic go down by 5 points.

[CKinnard]

Greger's data extract at 3 mins, doesn't represent the major finding from this study to date, that pescatorians have lower all cause mortality than vegans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

"RESULTS:

There were 2570 deaths among 73,308 participants during a mean follow-up time of 5.79 years. The mortality rate was 6.05 (95% CI, 5.82-6.29) deaths per 1000 person-years. The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97). The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01); in lacto-ovo-vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13) compared with nonvegetarians. Significant associations with vegetarian diets were detected for cardiovascular mortality, noncardiovascular noncancer mortality, renal mortality, and endocrine mortality. Associations in men were larger and more often significant than were those in women."


That's interesting considering the major cause of mortality is atherosclerosis which is indicated by hypertension and elevated BMI.

[big booty]

I don't have a feel for those numbers you quote CK. Is the difference between in HR of 0.81, 0.85 and 0.91 significant? I'll have another can of tuna just in case.

[Nobody]

Greger's data extract at 3 mins, doesn't represent the major finding from this study to date, that pescatorians have lower all cause mortality than vegans...That's interesting considering the major cause of mortality is atherosclerosis which is indicated by hypertension and elevated BMI.

There could be something else. As said before, it could be the low processing of ALA into EPA & DHA in elderly vegan males. There also could be other traps that surface later that we don't know about yet. Until I know further, it won't change my resolve. If my omega-3 index is low, I'll probably supplement algae derived EPA & DHA.

I've come across a few cases of people who have (medicated) hypertension but not serious heart disease. One had a CT CAC score of 0. So atherosclerosis appears to affect different people in different ways.

Speaking of supplementation, I'm trying 30mg/d of zinc for a couple of months since my spreadsheet says I'm low in zinc and iron is competitive with zinc. As you know, I mostly have higher blood iron levels than normal.

[big booty]

Try mushrooms or watermelon seeds or pumpkin seeds. I have pumpkin seeds all the time mostly for the magnesium. Although if youre needing 30 mg/d youre going to have to eat an awful lot.

[Nobody]

I have haemochromatosis, so benefit from consuming the least iron possible. So I try to keep most of my foods below 1mg/100g of iron. Exceptions are foods I eat in extremely small amounts like nuts & seeds that I need in small amounts for essential fats. I also allow beans because their iron absorption has been tested to be 2% and they have < 2mg/100g. Oats should be similar since both are high in phytates.
Pumpkin seeds are extremely high in iron with a poor iron to zinc ratio for me.
Watermelon seeds have a better iron to zinc ratio, but still too much iron for a food I don't need for other reasons.
Muchrooms don't appear to have a good iron to zinc ratio either.
So hopefully you can see why straight supplementation is best for me. I take far more zinc than I need because I believe my higher blood iron levels should inhibit zinc absorption to a degree. Also my diet is not just for weight loss and general health. It is the best diet for my disease due to its low iron absorption by the body (2 - 15%, versus 25% for animal products in general).

[Nobody]

Essential fats again.
I noticed in the WHO article on it said in a table on page 3 under the heading "Possible":

Specific minimum to prevent deficiency unclear

This is for both omega-3 and omega-6.
McDougall has been talking about this for years. He says show him the medical literature on cases of fat deficiency. He only knows of one case which was an artificial formula for babies with too little fat. Other than that, he says they don't exist.
Having said that, a number of individuals have come forward after experimenting to say they find they benefit from some fat in their diet. I've found a small amount of fat calming and better for my skin in general. But I won't lose sleep over missing my daily nut intake.

I try to take about 13g/d of linseed for my omega-3s (ALA) as advised by most plant based authors. But the next time you see a spreadsheet of mine and it's low in omega-6 fats (usually from nuts) know that I'll probably be OK without it.

[CKinnard]

Nobody, I agree that AHS II as it progresses, may find vegans have the lower hazard risk. However, for the time being, professionally, my position has to be that of this study's findings. I say that because I consider this study and its predecessor AHS I as the most powerful dietary study science has ever done. I have been backed by several US and Australian researchers and health professionals in this view. If I ever was hauled before my professional colleagues or associations to answer to a complaint brought by a patient, then it is these studies that I would use as my primary defense of advice given to patients. Their statistical and epidemiological power and research methodology trumps every other large cohort study ever done. These studies have also been highly influential in turning Kaiser Permanente, US health insurer, to aggressively promote plant based whole foods nutrition for preventative and curative health care.

[big booty]

I have haemochromatosis, so benefit from consuming the least iron possible. So I try to keep most of my foods below 1mg/100g of iron. Exceptions are foods I eat in extremely small amounts like nuts & seeds that I need in small amounts for essential fats. I also allow beans because their iron absorption has been tested to be 2% and they have < 2mg/100g. Oats should be similar since both are high in phytates.
Pumpkin seeds are extremely high in iron with a poor iron to zinc ratio for me.
Watermelon seeds have a better iron to zinc ratio, but still too much iron for a food I don't need for other reasons.
Muchrooms don't appear to have a good iron to zinc ratio either.
So hopefully you can see why straight supplementation is best for me. I take far more zinc than I need because I believe my higher blood iron levels should inhibit zinc absorption to a degree. Also my diet is not just for weight loss and general health. It is the best diet for my disease due to its low iron absorption by the body (2 - 15%, versus 25% for animal products in general).

Bugger. Must make food selection a pain in the arse. I eat those three foods all the time. Don't get cramps after a heavy ride any more. Im putting it down to the magnesium.

[mikesbytes]

As I've mentioned before, most of us probably need our diets customised to our particular charteristics and I'm impressed with the care that Nobody takes in that regard. Its far easier to add something, whatever that is, its on the shelf at the chemist, than to subtract something.

Unfortunately the majority of the population doesn't care about nutrition and the end result is unnecessary hospital admissions and early deaths

On the up side, I got the first harvest from the lettuces in the garden this morning, so I've had some really nice tasting greens with my breakfast