Plant Based Diet Thread

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Aussiebullet
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Aussiebullet » Mon May 09, 2016 7:30 am

Moosterbounce your previous diet sounds scary, do you get regular blood tests done?
Given your vivid examples of what you would eat and currently do eat, if you posted up your blood test results as Nobody and others have I think it would be of great interest to this thread and more so "The Diet Thread" and to others wondering if they should get blood tests done and depending on their results maybe change their eating habits.
Thanks for sharing your diet and thoughts BTW.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon May 09, 2016 10:44 am

moosterbounce wrote:OK, I'm gonna go out of a limb here and kick me if I am outa line, but I'm going to suggest that this topic shouldn't just be for the "true believers" to post "proof" that eating a plant based diet is great, but to support those who don't to help them embrace that way of eating, even if only for one day a week (i.e. no meat Monday).
The regulars to the "Diet Thread" know the context of the initial post of this thread. The purpose of separating this thread from the "Diet Thread" is to try to prevent arguments and diet comparisons which make up the bulk of the Diet Thread. This thread is to promote, encourage and educate in plant based eating. The new are usually welcome if they want to eat more plant based.
moosterbounce wrote:One thing I have experienced is someone eating a plant based diet telling me that I am pretty much stupid and unethical for eating meat, not a label I liked and one that, to be honest, sent me on the attack with a gob full of stereotyped comments. You all know the arguments and you all know the battle.
IMO you experienced a "vegan", the word having two meanings. It would have been better to have two words. So people who want to avoid the animal rights subject use the "plant based" label. I encourage people to eat more plant based for their health. Discussing animal rights is going to distract and possibly detract from that primary health message IMO.
moosterbounce wrote:Does anyone have any other ideas for me that may help me in my quest? Or any blended vege soup recipes?
Enter whatever food you like to eat into Google, with the words "vegan" and "low fat". Keep in mind that there are plenty of vegan foods which are still unhealthy, like all oils (processed food), processed foods, highly processed grains/flours, trans-fats, sugars (but not fruit), juices, etc. Basically you want to aim for minimally pre-processed foods that are high in fibre.

RhapsodyX
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Mon May 09, 2016 12:07 pm

moosterbounce wrote:Does anyone have any other ideas for me that may help me in my quest? Or any blended vege soup recipes?
Give up the sugar (switch to 90% cocoa chocolate for a start), and develop your taste buds. Food lacks flavor when we are used to hyper-palatable salt-and-sugar enhanced everything. I eat stupid amounts of cruciate vegetables, a bit of olive oil and chilli flakes or the occasional herb or lime/chilli mayonnaise or try avocado/feta on veges.

Not entirely "plant based", but it's only an egg here and there!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu May 12, 2016 1:44 pm

The below video is long, but quite useful for people who want to lose weight (long term) on a plant based diet.



The video below is recommended in the above video. I haven't seen it since I'm introverted. So don't have the problem of trying to fit in while changing diet.
http://esteemdynamics.org/video/getting ... ing-along/

The energy density mentioned in the video is converted and explained below.
ImageDerived from:
http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... nsity.html
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 032#p41322

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat May 14, 2016 7:21 pm

Nobody wrote:The below video is long, but quite useful for people who want to lose weight (long term) on a plant based diet.
Brag here. I had a great chat in person with Doug Lisle last evening at his health center in California.
Lots of incredible stories going on here of people overcoming serious diseases that drugs just mask, and create side effects.

Nobody, what can be derived from your chart is that the less active you are, the less fat and starches you need....but you still need to eat enough to feel full which means you have to increase veges and fruit. What many fail to appreciate is they are grossly inactive compared to their ancestors, who all did much more manual labour. But people are still trying to eat similarly to their ancestors.

More veges....more fruit should be a part of most meals. for a 70kg person, 6 cups of vege and 3 cups of fruit is a reasonable minimum to help get enough bulk and not overdo the grains, legumes, and fats.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sat May 14, 2016 9:05 pm

Gee... I've only had two days in the last six weeks where I have eaten less than 230g/day of fat, and my body fat % has fallen from 15% to 12.9%. Go figure. :roll:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 14, 2016 10:32 pm

CKinnard wrote:Brag here. I had a great chat in person with Doug Lisle last evening at his health center in California.
Lots of incredible stories going on here of people overcoming serious diseases that drugs just mask, and create side effects.
Hopefully it's only a matter of time before this information becomes more public knowledge.
CKinnard wrote:Nobody, what can be derived from your chart is that the less active you are, the less fat and starches you need....but you still need to eat enough to feel full which means you have to increase veges and fruit.
Interesting perspective. I'm sure Jeff didn't mean for it to be read as an activity versus diet chart. But I can see what you mean. It's how most people seem to play the weight loss game. "If I ride for X, then I can eat more Y." I think Jeff was trying to promote diet and just included exercise in examples to illustrate more cause and effect.
CKinnard wrote:What many fail to appreciate is they are grossly inactive compared to their ancestors, who all did much more manual labour. But people are still trying to eat similarly to their ancestors.
Or worse. Stuff that were just occasional treats have become daily fare. Also meat consumption has doubled over the last century.

I was visiting my father in a country hospital over the last couple of days. He had a minor fall, but he's 88yo.
Considering how active the nurses are at work, I was surprised how many are overweight or obese these days. Admittedly country towns usually have a bigger problem with obesity in AU.
Had a look at the food they are serving in hospital too and it looks like it hasn't changed since I was a kid (40+ years ago for other readers). I wanted to take a photo, but it was a bit too sensitive a situation at the time. Meat dominated, with gravy and a token 3 types of veg (potato, pumpkin and zucchini, probably 50g of each). "Wholemeal" bread, cheese, margarine, fruit juices, biscuits, crackers, chocolate pudding. As usual when faced with this I reflect on how this is supposed to be a place you go to get better. Also the inference for some is that this is an example of how everyone is supposed to eat. When in reality it's just food they think the average person will find acceptable to eat. I think they are more concerned that people actually eat rather than if it's healthy or not. The logic is fair enough, from their perspective. No surprise then that most are losing the health battle faced with examples like that.
CKinnard wrote:More veges....more fruit should be a part of most meals. for a 70kg person, 6 cups of vege and 3 cups of fruit is a reasonable minimum to help get enough bulk and not overdo the grains, legumes, and fats.
That is what I thought people should get from the chart. More green, less orange and no red as it graduates down. I probably get 7+ cups of veg and 10+ cups of fruit. Greger encourages to overdo the legumes with 390g/d and nuts & seeds of 37g/d, IMO. I'm more in line with you on this, so only have about 100g legumes and 17g of nuts & seeds per day.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 14, 2016 11:03 pm

.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun May 15, 2016 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

RhapsodyX
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Sun May 15, 2016 5:20 am

Nobody wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:Gee... I've only had two days in the last six weeks where I have eaten less than 230g/day of fat, and my body fat % has fallen from 15% to 12.9%. Go figure. :roll:
I don't really understand why you would post in this thread like you're offended at something posted.
Please don't read this thread if you find it offensive.
There should be plenty of keto sites/forums to read.
It was simply disagreeing with your "factual" post. If you can't take people disagreeing with your information, why do you post it?

I also have an issue with your statement that I might be offended - please don't make unfounded suggestions about my motivations or my response to your posts.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby AUbicycles » Mon May 16, 2016 10:12 am

Mod Says: The mods have been asked to look into this thread a there is a genuine interest by the OP to stay on-topic. The OP has clearly signalled their intentions to remain on-topic and politely asked, in the first post, to remain on-topic.

OP - This thread is NOT intended to be a place to discuss/argue about different types of diets. If comparisons are made between different diets - which is inevitable since the science does that - that is not an invitation to defend the other diet. Please start another thread on whatever diet is your preference and defend it there. Or take it to the Diet Thread which was made for that purpose. If you want to discuss other types of diets, please start another thread.

This is a fair and reasonable request and kindly ask that members participating in this thread respect this and allow this thread to stay on-topic.

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CKinnard
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed May 18, 2016 4:31 pm

I am at True North Health Center in Santa Rosa California for the next few months. This is the most experienced and professionally run medically supervised fasting and PBWF center in the world. They have published more studies and reports in the literature than anywhere else. The center is about a km down the road from Dr John McDougall's center, and the two work harmoniously together regularly.

Some interesting tidbits:

- everyone who does a water or vege broth fast followed by a refeeding program on PBWF, experiences a normalization of hypertension and blood sugar. This effect is so absolute that statisticians auditing submitted papers have thought the results were manipulated, but relented after checking raw data and interviewing several subjects.

- a woman I met today has had amongst other things tinnitus for almost 10 years. The symptoms have been constant. She told me after 12 days on a broth fast, the tinnitus is no more!

- a case study of a woman with a non-Hodgkins Lymphoma resolving after fasting and PBWF diet was published in the British Medical Journal last year.
http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning ... phoma-canc

Stay tuned for more tidbits.

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Thoglette
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 18, 2016 7:04 pm

CKinnard wrote: a woman I met today has had amongst other things tinnitus for almost 10 years. The symptoms have been constant. She told me after 12 days on a broth fast, the tinnitus is no more!
Oh, what's that recipe? While you're going to struggle to wean me of my animal protein I'd give a fortnight if it helped.

I strongly suspect diet is a factor (if only one) in my recurring tinnitus but I've never managed to restrict my diet long enough to find out.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu May 19, 2016 10:45 am

Thoglette wrote:
CKinnard wrote: a woman I met today has had amongst other things tinnitus for almost 10 years. The symptoms have been constant. She told me after 12 days on a broth fast, the tinnitus is no more!
Oh, what's that recipe? While you're going to struggle to wean me of my animal protein I'd give a fortnight if it helped.The Game Changers: Men, Meat and the World’s Most Dangerous Myth

I strongly suspect diet is a factor (if only one) in my recurring tinnitus but I've never managed to restrict my diet long enough to find out.
it's not so much the broth, but reversing atherosclerotic plaques that block the very fine arteries to the inner ear, and giving the body time to remove metabolic waste that can accumulate in same. The lady had come here to do a water fast, but due to other morbidity, the docs recommended she eat PBWF for a week, then do a broth fast for 2 weeks, then a final week back on fruits and PBWF. Some meditation and yoga stretching during this period also facilitates things - better lymphatic drainage, metabolic clearance, vascular tone via SNS balancing.

Today, I met and had a very stimulating conversation with David Goldman. This guy is a very dynamic high profile exercise physiologist and dietitian (works with a pro baseball team, and multiple pro athletes, and was Facebook's company health consultant). He told me about a documentary coming out in 2017, all about the benefits of PBWF, especially for athletes. It is taking on the protein myth.

It's called "The Game Changers: Men, Meat and the World’s Most Dangerous Myth"

Keep an eye out for it. Michael Gregor and David are liaising to get all the science right.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Abby » Thu May 19, 2016 11:41 am

In the Energy Density Scale posted above - why is there difference between porridge and oats? Are they not exactly the same thing?

Only asking because I regularly eat porridge and oats (seems weird to be separating them as two different things), and they all come out of the same homebrand packet... Is it the fact that you heat porridge up (ie porridge is heated up oats), whereas I soak oats in almond or soy milk overnight in the fridge and eat them cold?

Just wondering, as I'm about to start a weight-loss phase for some hilly rides I'm planning 6-ish months away...

Thanks!! :-)
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu May 19, 2016 12:09 pm

Abby wrote:In the Energy Density Scale posted above - why is there difference between porridge and oats? Are they not exactly the same thing?

Only asking because I regularly eat porridge and oats (seems weird to be separating them as two different things), and they all come out of the same homebrand packet... Is it the fact that you heat porridge up (ie porridge is heated up oats), whereas I soak oats in almond or soy milk overnight in the fridge and eat them cold?

Just wondering, as I'm about to start a weight-loss phase for some hilly rides I'm planning 6-ish months away...

Thanks!! :-)
Nothing will clarify, but at a glance the oats are dry and porridge is cooked and contains water, which lowers energy density/gram.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu May 19, 2016 1:29 pm

Abby wrote:In the Energy Density Scale posted above - why is there difference between porridge and oats? Are they not exactly the same thing?

Only asking because I regularly eat porridge and oats (seems weird to be separating them as two different things), and they all come out of the same homebrand packet... Is it the fact that you heat porridge up (ie porridge is heated up oats), whereas I soak oats in almond or soy milk overnight in the fridge and eat them cold?

Just wondering, as I'm about to start a weight-loss phase for some hilly rides I'm planning 6-ish months away...

Thanks!! :-)
Hi Abby,

Yes they are the same thing. Just preparation is different. Which makes it a good and bad example at the same time. I've tried both for breakfast over weeks at a time. Didn't seem to make any difference to my body weight in the end. When I prepared it as porridge it was 5.2 times its dry weight. As a breakfast cereal prepared with water, and waiting for 5 minutes for absorption, it is approx 2.9 times its dry weight (NF Cal/100g = 122). Still worth mentioning as dry because some people prepare them in muesli bar etc. Water weight in food matters. It's the same reason why fruit is encouraged but dried fruit or sugar isn't. I won't make a difference to some people, but to others it will. As an example, try getting fat on watermelon, or carrots (as per example in video). Both around 30 for no fibre calorie density. Generally the more you eat the skinnier you get as you displace other foods you would have eaten. You would have to eat over 6kg to get 2000 calories.

In the end it comes down to keeping the foods as whole as practical. Chasing as much fibre as possible. Limiting the amount eaten of some foods, while avoiding animal products, oils, overly processed (often grain based) foods and sugars. The chart is just a loose guide.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Abby » Thu May 19, 2016 2:52 pm

Many thanks CK and Nobody... :-)
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu May 26, 2016 9:12 pm



I don't think LDL as a primary indicator of atherosclerosis is as clear cut as the video makes out. People have different set points for cholesterol and the video doesn't take this into account. For example, my LDL of 2.2 mmol/L or 85mg/dL which puts me into the medium category for heart disease risk. Which is different from my hsCRP of 0.4 which places me in the very low risk category (< 0.5). My diet suggests the hsCRP should be the more accurate indicator.

My point is that if your cholesterol doesn't appear to match your diet, get your hsCRP checked to be sure.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 28, 2016 9:45 am

I thought the video below was interesting as it shows that both sugar and animal product intake were associated with NAFLD (Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease) and how a plant based diet can help.

In particular, I found the part on the study on cholesterol as an independent predictor of NAFLD interesting. Since my specialist (for hemochromatosis) suspected I may have had NAFLD. But treatment results showed I didn't.
No patients with non-HDL-C < 130 mg/dl developed NAFLD, whereas 20.8% of those with values between 130 to 160 and 24.6% of those with values >160 mg/dl developed NAFLD (P for trend = 0.015).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24118857

My non-HDL-C is 108 mg/dl so consistent with the study results.


http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prevent ... r-disease/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:19 pm

I'll start by saying if you get your information on plant based diets from the commercial media, then you are likely going to be misinformed. Books and/or web sites from specific plant based authors are the best places to get the information. Somewhere which hasn't been influenced by the food industry.

I don't usually correct articles from commercial media sources because there is just too much of it. So it would take too much of my time and it would fill this thread with less productive information. But since it's a rainy day in Sydney...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer ... p972u.html
While some question the nutritional value of a vegan diet, dietitian and spokeswoman for the Dietitians Association of Australia Simone Austin said the diet can work.

"It can be balanced, as long as you plan well," she said, but added that people considering a vegan diet out of health concerns should not always assume it is more nutritious.
Fair comment so far, but she is concentrating on nutrition which is a lesser concern (once B-12 is supplemented) compared with the damage an average western diet can do over the long term. Most people on western diets would be deficient in fibre, vitamins A, C & E along with potassium and magnesium. So it would be hard to do worse than that.
"Often people change because they think it's healthier. It's really important to realise it isn't necessarily healthier ... because people are not including foods they need."

Ms Austin said vegans needed to look harder for "protein, zinc, iron, omega 3s, calcium and B12" in their foods.

A recent study by the CSIRO and the University of Adelaide found one in six Australians is avoiding milk and dairy foods, despite having no medical reason to do so, prompting concerns of nutritional deficiencies.

Ms Austin said all vegans should seek fortified drinks and foods, such as soy drinks with added calcium.
Other than B-12, this is just scare mongering.

It is virtually impossible to be protein deficient if getting enough energy intake on a vegan diet.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vege ... h-protein/
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein.php

According to the the WHO, you only need 400 - 500mg of calcium a day. I usually get over 700mg/d. Last time I checked it was 850mg/d. That is without using fortified products like substitute milks etc.
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk/ve ... it-calcium

As for other vitamins and minerals, wait until you get symptoms or a problem with a blood test before worrying about it. Last time I put my diet through Cronometer, I wasn't deficient in any of them.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby softy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:32 pm

the topic of taxing sugar has popped up in another thread.

This to me is quite concerning, because what do they class as "sugar". The other concern is if manufactures start to remove sugar from products and add fat, (as it is not taxed, potentially cheaper) what will this do to an already high fat society???

How Myths can propagate and then be propagated through law!!!!

It has been identified some countries have already done this. Any feedback on weather it has reduced obesity?

Cheers

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:11 am

Nobody wrote: Fair comment so far, but she is concentrating on nutrition which is a lesser concern (once B-12 is supplemented) compared with the damage an average western diet can do over the long term. Most people on western diets would be deficient in fibre, vitamins A, C & E along with potassium and magnesium. So it would be hard to do worse than that.
The issue with dietitians is they are not trained heavily in the relationship between diet and disease, nor pathophysiology.

Their forte is in the nutritional content of various foods and how to combine them to create a balanced diet.
Of 20 odd dietitians I've known very well over the last 20 years, may be one or two could state
- 3 ways B12 might not be absorbed adequately
- what causes calcium deposits in tendons
- what medications or disease states are adversely effected by variable intake of dark green leafys.
- which diet has the highest longevity advantage

And neither are GPs trained in this stuff.

I am still at True North Health Center in Santa Rosa California.
I've had long conversations with and many lectures from Dr Michael Klaper, Dr. Doug Lisle, David Goldman, and others. I can tell you I've heard them all say stuff that is not in agreement with the scientific consensus, such as the latest regarding de novo lipogenesis. It highlights to me that any one human being has difficulty staying on top of multiple areas of research. Dr John McDougall also holds to outdated understandings of de novo lipogenesis.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:25 pm

From my previous post above:
Ms Austin said vegans needed to look harder for "protein, zinc, iron, omega 3s, calcium and B12" in their foods.
I didn't address omega-3 fats in my last post. The WHO says you should get a minimum of 0.5% of your energy intake from omega-3 fats. Whether this turns out to be valid in the future remains to be seen as there are few documented cases of fat deficiency. However, to cover the minimum only requires a small amount of linseed (about 7g/d) added to a meal.

Most people should be able to get enough omega-6 fats (WHO - 2.5% of energy) mainly from grains and legumes.

If in doubt about anything, I suggest measure your average diet and enter it into Cronometer.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

An interesting video on the reductionist mindset of science and the food industries in general:


http://nutritionfacts.org/video/reducti ... mentality/

____________________________________________________________________________________________________


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:00 pm


RhapsodyX
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:49 pm

Nobody wrote:... white-rice-brown video ...
So... why does it make a difference, and could the knowledge be applied to other foods?
It's a shame reductionist science is a waste of time and money. (Yes - taking a dig at the previous video).

That being said - I agree, so many important issues miss out on funding (research and public education) while money is spent on research and experiments that have little benefit to society.

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