Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:35 pm

Thanks RhapsodyX, I forgot to look for the Black, Red rice when I was near the Vietnamese shop and only remembered once I was home. $5.20kg sounds more reasonable.

The Gluten issue seems to be largely a recent thing caused by the improvements in grain yields. Like most things dietary wise, the full story is probably much more complicated
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:46 pm

Well - I fermented the black rice for ~ 34 hours and had it raw in my dinner salad. The fermenting was a guess, but the "raw" was after I found this recipe - if they don't cook it I decided I didn't need to either. It was reasonably soft after the soaking, so cooking wasn't required.

I also have a bag of barley and a bag of chick peas - more experimenting to follow.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:26 am

Another good reason for all of us, including pregnant mums and children not to skimp vegetables and fruit, which this study associates with resisting development of food allergies. It amazes me how the science often chases complex answers and ignores the fundamentals of health, like eating a minimum 5 and 2, as 98% of Australians don't.

In summary, fiber from f&v are turned into short chain fatty acids, particularly butyrate and acetate (less so propionate) which are the energy source for a gut cell involved in immunity called dendritic cells. If the microbiota is not geared towards an adequate intake of f&v via poor diet choices in the mother or offspring, these cells dysfunction due to lack of SCFAs, which results in some foods such as peanuts more likely being mislabeled as allergens. This labeling is also facilitated by a lack of Vitamin A which is found in highest concentrations in many f&v. Allergies can develop even if a mother doesn't eat enough f&v because offspring inherit their microbiota. (this study was performed on mice)

http://ausfoodnews.com.au/2016/06/22/hi ... study.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4716306301

Further, leaky gut is postulated to be associated with a lack of fiber in the diet. Fiber in the gut holds more water which helps to keep the gut hydrated adequately, which in turn facilitates the first line of defense against pathogens, namely the mucous layer on the gut wall. A drier gut wall compromises mucous production and maintenance.

Finally, a diet of excess protein, especially animal sourced, can lead to toxic levels of ammonia, phenols, and hydrogen sulphide.
For an interesting overview :
"The Impact of Diet and Lifestyle on Gut Microbiota and Human Health"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4303825/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:20 am

For those interested in plant based diet for ethical reasons, this outrageous expose on live animal exports and the sacking of a senior government veterinarian at the behest of the live export industry (cattle farmers), speaks volumes about corruption and the ethics of all involved.
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politi ... ppn5p.html

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:44 pm

^^**Warning**
Those are very distressing images if you have any compassion for the plight of animals. :( :(
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:42 pm

I got my blood test results today.

The important thing for me is that ferritin (main long term iron measure) was 89 ug/L which is in the optimal range of 30 - 100. And that is before I was bled today, so now should be even lower.

hsCRP has risen from 0.4 to 0.6 mg/L, which to me shows how much difference exercise can make, since that is the only significant factor that has changed recently. Too busy to get much exercise lately.

Everything else was within range except urea which is usually low and typical for this style of diet.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Dogs are the best people :wink:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:08 pm

warthog1 wrote:Still nice and low according to here;
http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/ ... tive/82047
Thanks.
According to the below AHA site, < 0.5 is less than half the risk of 0.5 - 1.0.
Have a look at figure 1 here from the link below. (FRS - Framingham Risk Score)
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/109/16/1955.full
By contrast, risk appeared to be very low for individuals at the other end of the spectrum with hsCRP levels <0.5 mg/L (15.1% of the study population). Indeed, this group appeared to have very low risk even when compared with those with hsCRP levels between 0.5 and 1.0 mg/L.
Thanks for posting. They appear to confirm my n=1 observation. Which means hsCRP should be lower again by the time I next get it tested. I can see more clearly why both diet and exercise are important for managing health.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:45 am

CKinnard wrote:Another good reason for all of us...
Feel free to post this in the regular diet thread, given it is OT for this thread.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:30 pm

For new readers; my blood test results are fairly typical for a person on a plant based diet. I'm 48yo and have been eating this way for 2.75 years.
Image

You'll probably notice that my Urea (Blood Urea Nitrogen, or BUN) is regularly low. This is normal for plant based eaters and according to this site, is usually no cause for concern.
Lab Tests Online wrote:Is there anything else I should know?

BUN levels can increase with the amount of protein in the diet. High-protein diets may cause abnormally high BUN levels while very low-protein diets can cause an abnormally low BUN.
If you substitute "protein" with "animal products", it matches the results plant based eaters are getting. This is not a low protein problem as can be seen by my "Total Protein" and "Albumin" results, which are mid range normal.

I also average 1.1g/kg of protein per day which is above the minimum specified by the WHO of 0.83g/kg.
WHO wrote:Thus 0.83 g/kg per day protein would be expected to meet the requirements of most (97.5%) of
the healthy adult population.
From page 126 of this document.

"MCH" is often out of range on the high side too. When my GP saw it, he asked my if I rode a bike.

Also please ignore the previous values for iron saturation and ferritin. That's because I have hemachomatosis and I've had been treated with regular bleeding to the point where I'm now in the normal iron range.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:42 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Another good reason for all of us...
Feel free to post this in the regular diet thread, given it is OT for this thread.
You should aim higher in life.
PBWF or WFPB doesn't = vegan. It means plant BASED. Blue zone diets that include meat as an accompaniment are considered plant based.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:09 pm

.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:16 pm

Nobody wrote:For new readers; my blood test results are fairly typical for a person on a plant based diet. I'm 48yo and have been eating this way for 2.75 years.
True North interprets low BUN (urea) as having higher renal function reserve capacity, in addition to lower protein diet. High reserve capacity is a good thing, as it means you are less likely to get renal insufficiency as you age.

Creatinine is used to differentiate
- high urea level due to acute protein load (steak for dinner the night before)
versus
- renal failure (both urea and creatinine are elevated)
Creatinine is breakdown product from muscle.

Elevated MCH can also be due to macrocytic anaemia. If curious, you could double your B12 supplementation and see what it does to your next MCH result.
You could also get homocysteine tested. An elevated level especially with elevated MCH, would support B12 deficiency.

Did you say you have hemochromatosis? Looks like you are managing it well recently. Are you giving blood regularly?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:28 pm

CKinnard wrote:Elevated MCH can also be due to macrocytic anaemia. If curious, you could double your B12 supplementation and see what it does to your next MCH result.
I take about 1000ug of B12 every second day and have done so for months. B12 should be high by now, but I'll get another blood test in a month or so to confirm B12, Vit D, BG, hsCRP and lipids. I might ask for Lp(a) instead of hsCRP next time, since it appears to be a more specific test for vascular inflammation rather than general inflammation (from the little knowledge I have of them so far).
CKinnard wrote:Did you say you have hemochromatosis? Looks like you are managing it well recently. Are you giving blood regularly?
Thanks. I'm not donating blood, but I have been getting 3 monthly bleeds at the hospital. I was bled yesterday, which is every 3 months so far. I'm trying to manage it mainly by diet selection.

I wasn't meant to get that bleed yesterday as the specialist instructed not to bleed under a saturation of 40. I strongly suspected it was going to be under 40 (although I didn't have the results) but I kept quiet about it in the hope that the nurse missed it and she did. I was given a copy of the results after the bleeding. I expect to be on 6 month bleeds from yesterday onward. Due to see the specialist again in August, so I'm supposed to get another blood test before then.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RhapsodyX
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:45 pm

CKinnard wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Another good reason for all of us...
Feel free to post this in the regular diet thread, given it is OT for this thread.
You should aim higher in life.
PBWF or WFPB doesn't = vegan. It means plant BASED. Blue zone diets that include meat as an accompaniment are considered plant based.
Sorry - very bad wording on my part.

As it's OT, we can't discuss most of that in this thread. Specifically, the protein/gut micro-biota which you included... ammonia et al.

Edit : and as per the first post, and the associated link, *this* version of WFPB excludes animal based foods. Therefore... probably best to have in-depth discussions elsewhere.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Nobody wrote:I take about 1000ug of B12 every second day and have done so for months. B12 should be high by now, but I'll get another blood test in a month or so to confirm B12, Vit D, BG, hsCRP and lipids. I might ask for Lp(a) instead of hsCRP next time, since it appears to be a more specific test for vascular inflammation rather than general inflammation (from the little knowledge I have of them so far).
I spoke to two doctors here about Lp(a) a few hours ago. They don't order it because it isn't effected significantly by positive lifestyle changes. It's pretty hard wired genetically. Health issues that can increase it are picked up by other tests and have their own therapies.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:32 pm

Thanks CK.

I spent some time looking at some studies that had both hsCRP and Lp(a) in them and agree that hsCRP still appears to be a better marker. I'll stay with hsCRP then.

The table below is telling. The article was posted in the Diet Thread some time ago. It shows although many cholesterol factors stay similar between people with and without CAD (there are two groups based on the way they were tested). The point of the study was to show the effectiveness of sd-LDL, but to me it really showed how effective hsCRP is as a CAD marker, followed by Lp(a) and then sd-LDL in the percentage of changes between know CAD and non-CAD groups.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T2/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038964/

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:30 pm

Stumbled across this older article in the Huffington Post:
Heart Disease: Treatment Using Vegetables Over Drugs

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:08 am

This is a very interesting finding.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4 ... s2852.html

It suggests yet another mechanism for why some followers (durian rider and freelee) who overfeed on a high carbohydrate diet do not gain weight as expected. Short chain fatty acids are created in the gut by bacteria which feed on unprocessed carbohydrate components.

" We further show that short-chain fatty acid-mediated activation of GPR43 suppresses insulin signalling in adipocytes, which inhibits fat accumulation in adipose tissue and promotes the metabolism of unincorporated lipids and glucose in other tissues. These findings establish GPR43 as a sensor for excessive dietary energy, thereby controlling body energy utilization while maintaining metabolic homoeostasis."

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby softy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:10 pm

CKinnard wrote:This is a very interesting finding.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4 ... s2852.html

It suggests yet another mechanism for why some followers (durian rider and freelee) who overfeed on a high carbohydrate diet do not gain weight as expected. Short chain fatty acids are created in the gut by bacteria which feed on unprocessed carbohydrate components.

" We further show that short-chain fatty acid-mediated activation of GPR43 suppresses insulin signalling in adipocytes, which inhibits fat accumulation in adipose tissue and promotes the metabolism of unincorporated lipids and glucose in other tissues. These findings establish GPR43 as a sensor for excessive dietary energy, thereby controlling body energy utilization while maintaining metabolic homoeostasis."
Interesting you mention Durianrider and Freelee,

Some maybe turned off by their polarised views, but get down to basics and they promote;
good hydration
required sleep
vegan plant based diet
no alcohol
no stimulates
no drugs
a positive attitude
and of course exercise


Last time I looked this was pretty good healthy advice on the whole.

It can't be argued they have raised the profile of veganism and plant based eating. Yes they say crazy stuff, but in durianrider's own words, he does this to bring attention to the movement. It is amazing how people love drama and controversy. This is he's intended technic to troll the audience.

Like them or not, I do agree their basic message for most people is better than where they are now, over weight and unfit.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:33 pm

DR has his own thread here for those who want to discuss him.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:26 pm

softy wrote:Last time I looked this was pretty good healthy advice on the whole.
There's a lot of confusion amongst the experts in the WFPB realm, let alone anyone trying to get the diet right for weight loss/mgt.

Some experts say one doesn't have to use portion control, just eat to satiation and no further.
Others say eat until one is 80% full.
Others say you can eat high carb low fat until you are overly full and never gain weight....because carbs are not turned into fat to any great extent.

This is perhaps the most controversial aspect of WFPB eating, because so many people adopt this diet to lose/manage weight.

I am in the US at the moment doing an internship at a well known WFPB health center (True North), and I am meeting Dr John McDougall next week at his facility a km up the road. I've spoken with or professionally cared for dozens of people now who have followed the advice of True North and John McDougall, only to find they do not lose weight eating WFPB ad libitum.

I've now recognized 4 mechanisms that will vary one's weight gain when overfeeding
- variation in brown adipose tissue quantity between individuals.
- variation in the robustness of sympathetic nervous system stimulus of brown adipose tissue when overfeeding.
- variation in thyroid hormone drive of the thermic effect of food after overfeeding.
- variation in gut microbiome production of short chain fatty acids and its effect on GPR43 receptor on fat cells.

Not understanding these mechanisms, and promoting that a ad libitum WFPB diet is a certain way to lose weight will leave many people who try this diet, very disappointed, and possibly turn them off.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby softy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:36 pm

Nobody wrote:DR has his own thread here for those who want to discuss him.
I know where you are going with that comment, and yes he does have a dedicated thread.... mostly bashing. It does not exclude them being mentioned in other relevant threads.

The point is, DR and freelee's main message is Plant based Vegan diet, which is the intent of this whole thread. He and freelee are probably the most well know plant based activists on YouTube.

SO, as far as I see it is relevant to this thread.

Posting other promoters of Plant based Youtubes seems to be okay, like
John Mcdougall
Mic the vegan
Dr Gregor
etc

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he is any less relevant than the ones mentioned above.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:58 pm

CKinnard wrote:Not understanding these mechanisms, and promoting that a ad libitum WFPB diet is a certain way to lose weight will leave many people who try this diet, very disappointed, and possibly turn them off.
Fair enough. Andrew Perlot advises to run a very small calorie deficit. Easy in theory, but involves weighing or estimating all your food and also estimating your activity.

Or one could try keeping an A grade diet (as Doug Lisle would say) with a constantly low calorie density (as per Jeff Novick) and see how that goes first. Worth a try before having to become totally anal about everything. Chef AJ runs a clinic for the food addicted and uses this method. I got down to a BMI of 20.4 earlier last year using the method before deciding that that was too light. I'm happier in the 21 range.
http://chefajwebsite.com/ultimate-weigh ... ogram.html
Actually I think Chef AJ said she got the advice to achieve this from Doug Lisle at True North from a video I saw, so you could just ask him since you are there.
https://youtu.be/jyR1OcQynfQ?t=397m30s

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:11 pm

softy wrote:Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he is any less relevant than the ones mentioned above.
I didn't say I don't like him.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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