The vego and vegan athlete
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby march83 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:09 pm
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:43 pm
I've basically just cut out meat and eggs, don't drink milk anyway, though did eat a little yoghurt. Not having that either.march83 wrote:Warthog, can you describe your dietary substitutions? What are you specifically removing from your diet and what are you replacing those things with?
Cut out tinned salmon and a bit of icecream, pizza and other garbage. No grog.
Substitute?
Tofu, lentils, beans. More rice. Basmati as a rule.
On the previous attempt a few years ago I was 75kg and not drinking much or eating fast food. A fair bit fitter.
Similar thing. Watching my target riders I am normally par or thereabouts with, just disappear up the hill.
Go to ramp up the pace and there wasn't the power there. No lactate type burn, just out of breath and no leg strength.
TBH if I have to micromanage what I am shoving in my gob to try and achieve a reasonable result I cbfed.
Will see how I go and how the BP goes with a bit of attention to cutting out the garbage and more activity and reassess from there.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:06 pm
Mate, most people I see are not going to move comfortably from a healthy omni diet to a 95%+ WFPB.warthog1 wrote: Thanks for spending your time and effort posting info for me CK. I appreciate it
I will go back to lower fat omni for a while and when I come back up form wise, I might have another go.
I was dead last up the mount today.
Never happened before and pinged off the back on another climb during the swap off despite sitting on.
When I go to ramp up there is nothing there, which is the same thing that happened last time when I was fitter.
I am losing weight very slowly.
80kg at 184cm so not obese by any stretch but 4-5 kg from where I'd like to be.
They have to stage it. So most of my advice is helping them along in stages.
Further, I think most of the benefits of WFPB are gained adhering 85-90%.
If I can get someone down to the regimen below, I am happy.
I then think it is a matter of getting other lifestyle choices optimized (stress mgt, relationships, life balance and meaning)
I introduce people to the Blue Zones thing most.
It's a great step in the right direction, and doesn't freak people out as much.
I recall a big smiley Maori guy I saw early this year. seriously overweight and prediabetic.
He'd seen a couple of dietitians and knew he had to change his ways.
I knew he'd probably had a lot of advice he struggled to follow.
So I told him "how about you eat clean 4 days a week, and goof off and have whatever you want the other 3 days."
His eyes lit up and I knew he finally had a way to move forwards....and he said "I can do that!!!"
He'd never been told that was a viable option.
But the science shows as he begins to adapt his tase buds and microbiome with healthier food choices, the grip junk has will weaken.
A typical athletic guy I might see who wants to lose weight and get fitter, I advise to first try
- reducing flesh (all meats) to less than 500 grams a week, then 1-2 mths later 300 grams. Introduce legume based dishes when not doing flesh.
- cut dairy in half (and try an alternative milk)
- ramp up the vege/salad to 8 cups+ a day.
- 2 serves of fruit
- whole grains (which is quantified based on the vital stats and activity levels).
- ditch the rubbish, and if a moderate drinker, 4 AFDs a week. If they are really serious about losing weight, no alcohol.
OK, I better go take my own medicine!
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:10 pm
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby trailgumby » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:16 pm
I think that's a fair assumption. As an interesting anecdote I've noticed that daily intake of low-fat/low sugar Greek-style yoghurt over the last few months has dramatically improved my tendency to uncomfortable amounts of pungent gas in the afternoons.warthog1 wrote:trailgumby wrote:I don't know much about the gut biome.
I assume it changes based on what you eat over an extended period.
Kombucha?
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:04 am
trailgumby wrote: As an interesting anecdote I've noticed that daily intake of low-fat/low sugar Greek-style yoghurt over the last few months has dramatically improved my tendency to uncomfortable amounts of pungent gas in the afternoons.
Had that for years. Comes in handy for playing the Roger Federer of fart tennis at work.
Whose name is also Roger.
Levels the field somewhat
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:47 pm
O dear. Your poor daughter. What have you Federer?warthog1 wrote:trailgumby wrote: As an interesting anecdote I've noticed that daily intake of low-fat/low sugar Greek-style yoghurt over the last few months has dramatically improved my tendency to uncomfortable amounts of pungent gas in the afternoons.
Had that for years. Comes in handy for playing the Roger Federer of fart tennis at work.
Whose name is also Roger.
Levels the field somewhat
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:18 am
You got me thinking, and I have to say I am not farting anywhere near as much as I was a year ago when I eat legumes.warthog1 wrote:trailgumby wrote: As an interesting anecdote I've noticed that daily intake of low-fat/low sugar Greek-style yoghurt over the last few months has dramatically improved my tendency to uncomfortable amounts of pungent gas in the afternoons.
Had that for years. Comes in handy for playing the Roger Federer of fart tennis at work.
Whose name is also Roger.
Levels the field somewhat
Only explanation is my gut bacteria have changed much.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:07 am
trailgumby wrote: O dear. Your poor daughter. What have you Federer?
Nicely done.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:03 pm
I have a mate up here that I ride with and he went down the no animal path. Sure he lost weight but he looks gaunt and has lost all of his power on the bike, hell, he can't even stay with me if I crank it up along the flat and he has zip answers to my sprint speed and he rides more than me.warthog1 wrote:Well here's some anecdata.
If you want to go backwards at a rapid rate of knots on the bike, cut out animal products.
Just back from the Tues Mt Alex ride
Woeful.
Ask the legs to deliver and there is simply nothing there.
I realise I'm up and down like a bipolar yoyo here, but that is a failed experiment for me.
I'm done with that idea. Same as last time.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:17 pm
OK, here's the traps to avoid when appraising what's happened here:foo on patrol wrote: I have a mate up here that I ride with and he went down the no animal path. Sure he lost weight but he looks gaunt and has lost all of his power on the bike, hell, he can't even stay with me if I crank it up along the flat and he has zip answers to my sprint speed and he rides more than me.
Foo
- what did he eat before?
- what motivated him to change diets? most ppl are motivated by a chronic illness or deep sense their health is not right.
- if he is still losing weight, he is not going to be strong. his strength won't return until his weight plateaus and he rebuilds the lean tissue that is lost with all weight loss.
- MOST ppl who try WFPB are not going to get a balanced diet without professional guidance, and discipline.
- if he is losing weight rapidly, he should refrain from higher intensity efforts, and too much volume....otherwise he is likely to develop cardiac arrhythmia, gall stones, or gout.
For every story I hear like this Foo, I know of 6 or 7 where people's health and fitness improves!
Anecdotes are fine, as long as you have a few hundred of them!
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby Nobody » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:38 pm
Most people think the same of me (BMI 20.5). It's only in reference the societal norm which is getting bigger all the time. My size would fit in OK in some Asian countries.foo on patrol wrote:Sure he lost weight but he looks gaunt...
I got at least 10% faster on average after losing the weight. Maybe not the norm, but since we're mentioning anecdotes...foo on patrol wrote:...he can't even stay with me if I crank it up along the flat and he has zip answers to my sprint speed and he rides more than me.
Sure I can't sprint well now. But then I was never really good at that anyway. Almost halving my cholesterol (no meds), feeling healthier/calmer and being 20+ kg lighter means more to me.
To avoid people possibly inferring that only people who change their diets become unbalanced - which I agree often happens - I'll add that (as you know) most people dying at middle age are doing so because of chronic diseases caused by the poor/unbalanced standard AU diet. It being inflammatory, deficient in fibre and consuming what the WHO class as grade 1 and 2 carcinogens.CKinnard wrote:...- MOST ppl who try WFPB are not going to get a balanced diet without professional guidance, and discipline.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:38 pm
Yes, considering only 2% of Australians eat at least the minimum recommended amount of vege and fruit, most transitioning to a WFPB diet are doing so from an unbalanced and less health supporting diet. And without guidance, most will continue excess intake of salt, simple carbs, deficient f&v, and processed stuff on a WFPB diet. (guidance can come from an appropriate book, web resource, or consult with a health pro).Nobody wrote: To avoid people possibly inferring that only people who change their diets become unbalanced - which I agree often happens - I'll add that (as you know) most people dying at middle age are doing so because of chronic diseases caused the poor/unbalanced standard AU diet. It being inflammatory, deficient in fibre and consuming what the WHO class as grade 1 and 2 carcinogens.
That's why I think it is good to be guided how to get WFPB optimized from the outset....otherwise a few months down the track, one is likely to be saying I tried WFPB and it didn't do anything for my health, and made me weaker!
I also think if one is changing diets in an effort to improve a health condition, they are in the hands of a doctor who has screened possible contributing pathologies.
Incidentally, I had to convince a UCI women's cyclist (and her father), that losing weight wouldn't permanently make her weaker. The father and mother were elite cyclists when younger, and were a old school re diet and bodyweight. It took a lot of diplomacy on my part to get this girl to cut excess weight....When I was seeing her, she was recovering from injury in Oz. Over 4 months I had her on a diet, building saddle time, and in the gym 3 times a week. We re-shaped her body, and after 3 mths her times matched pre-injury, and continued to improve until she went back to British Cycling. Since, she has raced in the Commonwealth Games and is in the Women's WorldTour. I just looked up her stats, and this year she rode with UK based WNT-Rotor Pro Cycling...and her weight is only 2kg above what I set as her target.
When in Victoria a few months ago, I had an Australian Nationals womens junior in a similar predicament - recovering from injuries and carrying weight. This was a more sensitive scenario, because the girl is a minor and her obese mother has ultimate control of her diet. Nevertheless, I was able to make good progress in changing Mum's paradigm about what ideal race weight and % bodyfat is.
btw, If one wants to reduce strength losses when dieting, they should be doing resistance exercise, to kick up testosterone and growth hormone.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby foo on patrol » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:21 am
He wasn't overly over weight before he started this path and he/they looked at the Aitkens diet and references like that, for their meals.CKinnard wrote:OK, here's the traps to avoid when appraising what's happened here:foo on patrol wrote: I have a mate up here that I ride with and he went down the no animal path. Sure he lost weight but he looks gaunt and has lost all of his power on the bike, hell, he can't even stay with me if I crank it up along the flat and he has zip answers to my sprint speed and he rides more than me.
Foo
- what did he eat before?
He was a meat n three veg bloke.
- what motivated him to change diets? most ppl are motivated by a chronic illness or deep sense their health is not right.
Pressure from his wife and thinking he would be healthier but he has less energy.
- if he is still losing weight, he is not going to be strong. his strength won't return until his weight plateaus and he rebuilds the lean tissue that is lost with all weight loss.
Not dropping anymore weight now.
- MOST ppl who try WFPB are not going to get a balanced diet without professional guidance, and discipline.
- if he is losing weight rapidly, he should refrain from higher intensity efforts, and too much volume....otherwise he is likely to develop cardiac arrhythmia, gall stones, or gout.
He lost it gradually
For every story I hear like this Foo, I know of 6 or 7 where people's health and fitness improves!
Anecdotes are fine, as long as you have a few hundred of them!
We have told him to stop buying all of these processed veg things that try to mimic real meat. Now he is introducing real meat back into his meals.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby Nobody » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:33 am
Sounds like he was on a low-carb diet. No wonder he had no energy for peak performance. This highlights what CK was saying, that people usually need professional help to get it right, but most won't get that help and mess it up. That fail is then broadcast to the in-group standard diet eaters to reinforce that the normal diet is the best way to eat.foo on patrol wrote:...he/they looked at the Aitkens diet and references like that, for their meals.
Mimic meats aren't very healthy, but going back to meat is a revertive step for health. Cholesterol, saturated fat, insulin spiking, heme-iron, choline/TMAO, bio-accumulated toxins, hormones (natural and introduced), high caloric density and a probable carcinogen (WHO). Sure, people may be able to get an anabolic effect with animal products. But at what long term cost? Hopefully some will see the big picture.foo on patrol wrote:We have told him to stop buying all of these processed veg things that try to mimic real meat. Now he is introducing real meat back into his meals.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:26 pm
I see it all the time with people be it diet or training. Unfortunately once the goal is obtained everything returns to the original status quo.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:46 pm
I'm back on an omnivorous diet.singlespeedscott wrote:Interested to see how you go with this Warthog. My concern is what happens once you reach your goal
I see it all the time with people be it diet or training. Unfortunately once the goal is obtained everything returns to the original status quo.
No red meat and cut out the garbage.
I don't know what is the cause but it didn't work last time either.
I'll get my on bike performance going again and then maybe try a more gradual change over.
I just run out of breath and watch my par cyclists ride away.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby warthog1 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:47 pm
Haven't lost alot of weight, just performance.foo on patrol wrote:
I have a mate up here that I ride with and he went down the no animal path. Sure he lost weight but he looks gaunt and has lost all of his power on the bike, hell, he can't even stay with me if I crank it up along the flat and he has zip answers to my sprint speed and he rides more than me.
Foo
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:08 pm
Doh!!! Atkins AND WFPB???foo on patrol wrote:He wasn't overly over weight before he started this path and he/they looked at the Aitkens diet and references like that, for their meals.
Foo
That's murky territory.
If he is REALLY serious about ensuring the rest of his days on planet earth have the least diet induced pain and misery, and he genuinely enjoys his cycling, I'd suggest he has 2 or 3 consults with http://www.appletozucchini.com.au
They are the most experienced cluster of sports dietitians in Brisbane.
What he learns there could flow onto his wife and descendants!!!
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby foo on patrol » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:03 pm
Thanks CK, I'll show him that link.CKinnard wrote:Doh!!! Atkins AND WFPB???foo on patrol wrote:He wasn't overly over weight before he started this path and he/they looked at the Aitkens diet and references like that, for their meals.
Foo
That's murky territory.
If he is REALLY serious about ensuring the rest of his days on planet earth have the least diet induced pain and misery, and he genuinely enjoys his cycling, I'd suggest he has 2 or 3 consults with http://www.appletozucchini.com.au
They are the most experienced cluster of sports dietitians in Brisbane.
What he learns there could flow onto his wife and descendants!!!
Foo
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby headasunder » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:33 pm
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:40 pm
(had to pick one of your multiple good comments).CKinnard wrote:btw, If one wants to reduce strength losses when dieting, they should be doing resistance exercise, to kick up testosterone and growth hormone.
Interesting, I seem to be in that happy place where just dropping simple carbs sees me shed weight but it comes with a corresponding loss in energy (even accounting for being in fat-burning mode after the first, oh, 50 metres ) However, all my exercise is run/ride/swim
I also struggle to get the salt level right: I'm all over the place (travel wise) but I'm probably having way to much on average. Which seems to be reflected in the blood pressure.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:06 pm
Tell us a bit about your journey Head.headasunder wrote:Wow great thread I've been a vegetarian for 30 years or so, I,m now 54 and have heard it all regarding how vegetarians are weaklings. I'm too old to give a crap about that myth and have smoked plenty of meat eater cyclists in my time (and been smoked of course). The biggest change to my eating habits came after listening to an interveiw on national radio a few months ago on time restricted eating. Initially it takes a bit of working out especially when riding big kms but in terms of general health I have never felt better, losing or gaining weight has never been an issue for me but I have noticed I have dropped a couple of kgs since moving to a 10 hour eating window. Interveiw is here for anyone interested https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/prog ... chin-panda
why you went vego
are you ovo?lacto? has your diet evolved?
what supps do you take?
do you grow any of your own?
what work you do ..very active? office?
I agree time restricted fasting is a healthy thing to do that should slow degeneration of the body's physiological systems, and help us avoid insulin resistance and overweight.
I did a 40 day fast 2 years ago. Got to about day 18 and had to go from water to vege broth to get my plasma potassium level back up to a healthy level. But that's another kettle of fish.
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby headasunder » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:09 pm
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Re: The vego and vegan athlete
Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:24 pm
What's OE?headasunder wrote:I switched to a vege diet when on OE sometime in the 80s
I presume you mean the human resources definition - Operational Effectiveness, a program to improve health and thereby work performance.
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