Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10.

cj7hawk
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Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10.

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:09 pm

OK, before this gets out of hand, I'll start with the following important note: If you exceed 200w or 250w for a Pedelec, then you're going to have a bad time with the authorities, and your bicycle will be regarded as an unlicensed motorcycle. This is about how to get your crappy 100w Pedelec up to speed, or how to make your 80w PAPC hit the full legal limit. Be careful with the change as you could make your bicycle illegal if you set it incorrectly. This is intended as an idea on how to "tweak" your output up to the legal maximum.

Also, this was done with a 125w bicycle which was power-increased to 200w, so within the law... But the theory is now tested and proven. Increasing your electric bicycle output is as simple as inserting a small bit of circuitry into the line between the battery and the controller, which is actually a pretty easy place to put it and can usually be achieved without modifying the bicycle and, in many cases, without being obvious. There is also no simply way for manufacturers to stop this from happening but they shouldn't, as many overstate the power output of the bicycle - eg, claiming 200w when the real continuous power is only 120w - etc. This has the effect of a lower top-speed, but does make a cheaper battery last longer and given more range. That should be considered by anyone considering this also.

So, where to begin. The idea is that power from the motor is easily upgraded by increasing voltage, but not everyone wants to go from 24v to 36v - or from 36v to 48v - as that means using a different battery. Most motors will easily handle the extra power, so a battery change for a different model of battery is pretty simple right?

The power output increase goes something like this:

24v to 36v - Increase 225%
24v to 48v - Increase 400%
36v to 48v - Increase 178%
48v to 60v - Increase 156%

These are all easily achieved, but often batteries step up in 12v ( or thereabouts ) increments. As such, even though changing the power by using a battery from a different bicycle is convenient, it's difficult to get small increases in power, or to fine-tune the maximum power output.

So I started to think about it an bought one of these on Ebay.

Image

These things cost about $10 and will increase output voltage at power outputs of up to 600w, but basically have 10A output, and will take 15A input. You can also possibly slave them in parallel ( but would require precise settings ) or get a more powerful module.

Then I connected it inline between my battery and my bicycle. The result is this -

Image

Not very pretty, but it worked - I set the voltage up a few volts, and my top speed increased from 19kph to 24kph instantly. I rode around a bit and eventually managed to blow the fuse as I didn't set the output current limitations on it and overloaded the device when the motor stalled, but with the current limitations set, I'm pretty sure i could have gotten the exact power I wanted - So that's for the next test.

This one is pretty large, but with appropriate rebuilding and heatsinking into the bicycle frame, I think this could easily get down to the size of a tic-tac box, or fit into a plug where the batteries meet the controller. In some cases, bicycles will already be at the legal limit, and won't need tweaking, but even though I can get to 19kph easy enough, sometimes I think it would be nice to have a "turbo" switch that will push me out to 24kph for longer stretches of straight path for commuting.

Anyway, I thought I'd put this up since it's of interest. I don't really think it's likely to be abused, because for those people it would be easier to just buy a larger battery - but for the rest of us, something like this to fine-tune maximum speed might be interesting.

At a note - these are supposed to be 95% efficient - so you do drain the batteries a little faster ( about 5% faster ) - but otherwise, if you have plenty of battery power, a plug-in "turbo" device might be interesting. This is not an endorsement or a review - Just an experiment - Try it at your own risk - :) Also be wary as some controllers may not take very high voltages, but many will bear some significant increase.

Regards
David

yellagonga
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby yellagonga » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:42 am

Dillenger sell 250W pedelec kits. They are 500w motors running on 36V. One of these step up transformers would be way cheaper than buying a new 48V battery.

One of these would also be handy on kids ride on toys. I am currently running my kids 6volt quad on 12volts without any thermal problems.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:41 am

Hmmm. Kids toys - that would work quite well. Actually, upgrading a toy from a tiny set of batteries at 24v to a single large 12v would work OK - As long as the toy was under 100W.

The maximum output of the device is 600w, but I think the maximum input current is 15A and the maximum output current is 10A. That somewhat limits it. In my case, 24v (AT) 10A is more than enough power. I've still got to do some experimenting on how the output power adjustment works - Hopefully it allows current to be set as a primary overriding factor and voltage will drop as maximum current is exceeded, as with current loop. There may be some very practical reasons for needing something like that in the future, not to mention avoiding blowing the fuse as stall current rises. I didn't detect any heat build-up during the test, but given the relatively short duration and it's construction and large heatsink, that's not entirely surprising. I do need to find a better way to mount it though and a means to allow it to be either permanently wired in or switched in as required.

I can still make 19kph without it, and there will be times I want efficiency rather than maximum power. Though the twist throttle is proving to be a pain so I need to find a thumb throttle and try that. I might even give making a press-button throttle a go.

Regards
David.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:32 am

OK, just found some specifications - because the current can be balanced between two units, then the output current can be increased to any size - So it would be possible to drive pretty much any output electric bicycle with these - The recommendation is about 8A per device for this mode, so it seems you can count on about 200w per unit usable power driving from 24v to 36v. Five units ganged together on a rear-rack ( and heatsunk into it ) would therefore run up to 1000W (AT) 48v easily off of 24v batteries, though that would be strictly off-road - Not a great example, but does highlight the possibility.

What it does mean though is that even with significant inefficiencies, it should be possible to use one ( or more ) of these to push any bike right up to the legal limit - useful as many bike manufacturers probably play it safe and may only put out 100W or less.

Regards
David

geebee
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby geebee » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:15 pm

These will not work reliably for a lot of bikes due to the fact that a 250w bike with a 17 amp 36v speed controller is going to have a max continuous wattage of over 700w and it will spike at more than 17 amps in a lot of cases, a 200w bike may have upto a 15 amp controller so for safety you would need 3 for the 200w one and 4 for the 250w most controller are =/- 1 amp without allowing for spikes or losses, they would also reduce range a lot as for example if you increase 12v to 24v the amps drawn will double plus the added losses from the up converter.
Also the increased current may cause battery issues, with SLA the peukert effect will greatly diminish capacity and with LiPo you may exceed the max current draw and destroy them if you don't know there C rating.

You are better of buying a new controller or another battery to add to the existing ones, a higher amp speed controller will allow more torque but not much speed increase, a larger battery will give more speed with out a lot of torque increase.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:22 am

geebee wrote:These will not work reliably for a lot of bikes due to the fact that a 250w bike with a 17 amp 36v speed controller is going to have a max continuous wattage of over 700w and it will spike at more than 17 amps in a lot of cases, a 200w bike may have upto a 15 amp controller so for safety you would need 3 for the 200w one and 4 for the 250w most controller are =/- 1 amp without allowing for spikes or losses, they would also reduce range a lot as for example if you increase 12v to 24v the amps drawn will double plus the added losses from the up converter.
Also the increased current may cause battery issues, with SLA the peukert effect will greatly diminish capacity and with LiPo you may exceed the max current draw and destroy them if you don't know there C rating.

You are better of buying a new controller or another battery to add to the existing ones, a higher amp speed controller will allow more torque but not much speed increase, a larger battery will give more speed with out a lot of torque increase.

Hi Geebee,

They're not a magical engineering-free solution - just something to put into the toolkit :) Actually, I'd be a little harsher than that as they really should only be used for experimentation, although from current tests, they handle spikes pretty well, just not sustained output, but a few seconds of overload ( even 100% overload - eg, around 400w ) doesn't seem to destroy them - though it is possible to blow a fuse if you exceed the input current by too much for too long. Nonetheless, having played with one, I find they have some unanticipated benefits, which may make the additional losses ( 5% ) worthwhile.

I'm not sure why you say a 250w bike would have a 700w continuous output? That sounds strange to me, and would seem to be of dubious legality on the road - even if it conforms with EN15194, it doesn't conform under any state law which extends beyond EN15194 to stop that kind of output. Especially in NSW which seems to have published guidance on such occurrences now. So can you please recheck what you wrote there and advise? My own 24v 250w controller is only rated at 13A or barely over 300w continuous with a full rated output at 250w, which is within the booster's claimed operational range. Unboosted output is around 125w, 19kph (AT) 24v due to motor selection, or 200w, 24kph (AT) 30v.

In any case, I set mine to 36v nominal output from 24v input and limited the power so it got to 30v at 200w on the load machine while running. Then on a test, it managed about 23/24 on the flat, with the capability to increase speed on downhill or with a tailwind with a reduction in output, potentially giving rise to the useful situation where it could limit power to legal levels so that back-emf was maximized within the legal limits, but continued to supply maximum power output for as long as possible, meaning that it would provide the full 200w assist while pedaling like crazy - giving rise to some very useful top speeds while pedaling. That's something not possible with a legal Pedelec and even Petrol PAPCs can't handle that kind of continuous power output at higher speeds, but it's still legal. No blown fuses and I went for a good ride - about 15 minutes at full throttle, no pedal, including slowing and stopping several times. Output appeared to be within legal limits and speed varied as it should with gradient/wind. The nice thing is once the power is regulated, then the voltage can be set to whatever is desired ( eg, 40v, 48v etc ) which means that a 200w bike that was set to operate efficiently at 24kph will suddenly provide the same 200w at speeds well over 48kph and remain compliant with PAPC regulations. In this respect, I think I discovered something unanticipated that actually has real benefit to ebike riders. Meanwhile if the motor stalls or drops to low speeds under load, the voltage will simply drop back to normal levels ( ie, 24v in my case ) and power is carried nearly 1 for 1... Though perhaps a little limited which improves compliance with legislation. The best speed under power was about 30, downhill... Quite nice to hit on a compliant electric.

Your right about rated outputs, but I guess people who are going to install a "Turbo" with a $10 part aren't going to care about a little overcurrent and the wires in most ebikes are short enough to handle it - that leaves fuses and batteries, but generally. we're talking about stuff like offsetting back-emf for greater speed, so current won't increase, just top speed under some circumstances. Drain will increase, but drain is related to power output, so if you're using more watt-hours, then the batteries will drain accordingly. For long battery life, drop the power, lower the top speed and you'll get a significant benefit in dealing with air resistance alone :)

Anyway, the specs will handle 15A continuous, so for 200w, it's fine :) And I got mine set to 200w (input, not output) with the power meter pretty well. 200w continuous is well suited to it, so to avoid overcurrent, I might set mine up with a turbo button that switches in the boost and then I'll only use it at max-speed, not under high load, and then I don't have to worry about blowing the fuse, though I did sit on about 11 kph up a steep hill, which would have been slightly faster without the turbo. so it probably was limiting the current quite effectively, even when voltage dropped to input levels.

It's not without it's dangers. The first is that battery levels could drop below levels where they cause cycle-related wear to the battery, also current increases from a battery do reduce battery output, but I'm using gel-cells to save money so I don't have any worries about over-power issues - They'll handle 50A just fine ( max is over 100A ) - Also, overcurrent on Lithiums is a bad thing too, but as mentioned, you can adjust the max output power - and it has precedence over voltage.

Anyway, I have yet to quantify all the benefits and issues related - Since my electrics have a built-in petrol generator ( although I am building the MK II at the moment ) I don't have to worry about range or drain - just overall power distribution. In this case, running the motor at around 30v, 200w limited seems a good outcome, and lets me make effective use of a cheap 48v 500w motor while remaining compliant.

Regards
David

p.s. Thanks for the link earlier - A good perspective -

geebee
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby geebee » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:41 am

Regarding the power ratings for 250w pedelecs the rules are the maximum continuous RATED power, the rated power is nominated by the manufacturer.
For example the Aseako 250w model has a 17 amp 36v controller, their 200w modesl have a 15 amp controller, some of the newer high torque hub bikes are pushing around 20a at 36v, it has been discussed quite often on http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re your batteries, all SLA's suffer from peukert effect below is the specs from Jaycars 12V 12Ah battery, the bracketed figures are the usable capacity at the differing discharge rates, to get a maximum life span they should only be discharged to 50% of the discharge rates shown capacity
20 hr rate: 600mA (12Ah)
10 hr rate: 1.08A (10.8Ah)
5 hr rate: 1.92A (9.6.A)
1 hr rate: 7.2A (7.2Ah)
Discharge current max: 180A for 5 sec

I like the fact you are willing to play with the tech and experiment, it's all good fun, I have built some very unusual bikes at times :)
I am not trying to be a wet blanket but just giving my view from decades playing with ebikes and working on electronics for a living.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:36 am

geebee wrote:Regarding the power ratings for 250w pedelecs the rules are the maximum continuous RATED power, the rated power is nominated by the manufacturer.
For example the Aseako 250w model has a 17 amp 36v controller, their 200w modesl have a 15 amp controller, some of the newer high torque hub bikes are pushing around 20a at 36v, it has been discussed quite often on http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re your batteries, all SLA's suffer from peukert effect below is the specs from Jaycars 12V 12Ah battery, the bracketed figures are the usable capacity at the differing discharge rates, to get a maximum life span they should only be discharged to 50% of the discharge rates shown capacity
20 hr rate: 600mA (12Ah)
10 hr rate: 1.08A (10.8Ah)
5 hr rate: 1.92A (9.6.A)
1 hr rate: 7.2A (7.2Ah)
Discharge current max: 180A for 5 sec

I like the fact you are willing to play with the tech and experiment, it's all good fun, I have built some very unusual bikes at times :)
I am not trying to be a wet blanket but just giving my view from decades playing with ebikes and working on electronics for a living.

Hi GeeBee,

Thanks for the input - All feedback is good and all help is useful :)

You're correct about the batteries. On low power, level path, it's about 140w so a little less than the 1 hr rate - So I guess I get about an hour with an average speed around 18kph. I call it a 15km range and under boost a little less. I've wired it up permanently now with a selection switch so I can choose the extra speed or the standard output. Although the speed difference is marginal, it makes quite a difference if I'm pedaling also, as I get assistance to well over 30kph.

The way the laws have been implemented are a little strange with respect to the Pedelec's. It's not maximum rated power, but maximum continuous power - This is something that really screws up Pedelecs and shows that whoever created the legislation perhaps didn't fully think out what they were doing - The rated power is nominated by the manufacturer and is to ensure that they don't under-rate the Pedelec, but under the standard adopted by Australia, we measure it under section 4.2.7 which actually requires a measurement to be taken - and this has already been clarified in NSW courts as the maximum continuous power that can be produced at the wheel. In this respect, I suspect that many of the Pedelecs in Australia aren't technically EPACs under EN15194 and also aren't legal under current legislation. It's not clarified in court in other states ( that I know of ) but most have written a maximum output into the legislation that was enacted in addition to the EN15194 requirements, so it's an additional requirement over and above the european standard that they don't exceed 250w -

Many (most) will temporarily exceed 250w at lower speeds ( eg, around 15 to 19 kph ) but must produce no power at all at 25kph. :(

Having read the EN15194 standard ( I am building petrol-electric bikes as a hobby that qualify under the EN15194 standard ) I found it said different things to what most Australians seem to think it says. Someone uploaded a copy of the older standard on another forum here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/downlo ... ?id=165068 - I have my own copy as I needed to get the latest version, but most of what is relevant seems to be in the earlier version too, and both are acceptable in most states.

It seems the standard is fine to built bikes as long as you obtain the EPAC ESA's all pre-manufactured and tested.

I shorted out the circuit today to see what would happen, but left the backup line active and melted the circuit board ground plane. Once I repaired that, it worked OK again, but that's something to remember. Either the circuit breaker failed, or the ground plane can't handle 20 or so amps. Something else to note about these circuits.

I also cleaned up the circuitry today, so the wires and components of the boost circuit are all contained -

Image

Regards
David

human909
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:18 am

There is no way that voltage step up would be able to last at continuous power at those higher wattages. Even presuming the 95% efficiency at 600W that is 30W lost in the device! That thing is unlikely to even cope with 5W of heat!

(I that typed this before reading everything. So I then searched "melted"... :wink: )

If you are going to keep doing stuff like that get larger devices and make sure they are properly cooled!
Last edited by human909 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:38 am

human909 wrote:There is now that voltage step up would be able to last at continuous power at those higher wattages. Even presuming the 95% efficiency at 600W that is 30W lost in the device! That thing is unlikely to even cope with 5W of heat!

(I that typed this before reading everything. So I then searched "melted"... :wink: )

If you are going to keep doing stuff like that get larger devices and make sure they are properly cooled!
I'm scratching my head at your first sentence. Maybe's it's too early in the morning and my brain is still frozen. :(

Anyway, I think I know what it meant, and I had concerns originally too. Generally stuff like that doesn't handle continuous power.

So I took it for a fairly long ride last night until the battery was well used and it didn't even get warm to the touch... Up and down hills too while monitoring the speed - So either the heatsink is really good or it's efficiency is better than expected - Though it is current limited so it will reduce the current to the motor at higher voltages, maintaining the output below 200w even at higher speeds. It still provides a good push at 35 kph, though has no noticeable affect at all at around 60... Up a really steep hill, the current is limited so it's better to switch it back to normal - it's really only there for long sections of flat track where I want to increase my cruise to maximum ( around 25 kph ) - but don't want to pedal. Also, it makes really efficient use of a brisk tailwind and was easily pushing me at 30 with around 10+kph wind. Even my petrol bike won't do that. ( It would do about 27 ).

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried it might fail on me, but I can switch it off during the ride, and remove it with just a pair of nail clippers or anything sharp/strong, and I designed the cable runs to work without it. It did die the first time but then I set the current regulation correctly and haven't blown a fuse since - though the ground plane of the circuit board is now the weak point ( found during absolute short testing ). Well, either it will go, or the circuit breaker.

Still, it's been impressively robust and has survived all testing to date - and doesn't seem to mind continuous 200w output with the occasional peak. The heatsink is fairly large, but I am wondering how it will go in the summer heat. My research got started when it was hot, but since I've been doing endurance testing, it's been a lot cooler. My new generator is the big heat concern and is half the size now, and will probably weigh in all-up around 4kg - very light, but I'm more worried about the heat from that as I've designed the MKII for 1kW peak output - 800w sustained. Mind you, there's a centrifugal fan, a venturi fan and a conventional radial compressor all powering the cooling for that, and all inline and redundant. That thing will be powerful enough to carry a small 240v inverter too - :) Might be useful for camping on long bike rides.

David.

human909
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:50 pm

cj7hawk wrote:I'm scratching my head at your first sentence. Maybe's it's too early in the morning and my brain is still frozen. :(
I guess it was too late at night when i wrote that. Fixed now. :mrgreen:
cj7hawk wrote:Still, it's been impressively robust and has survived all testing to date - and doesn't seem to mind continuous 200w output with the occasional peak.
I'm impressed too!

(Oh I see the heatsink now, I didn't see it or the scale earlier. That heatsink is probably suitable for about 10W dissapation. So assuming 95% you might be right with 200W. You can get cheap 12V fans for computers and electronics. Throw a small fan on that an heat won't be an issue.)

*I'm no expert on these things, in fact I've never used them and I am my electronics experiences is minimal. However I know the basics and I know how to make good estimations using basic physics principles.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:05 pm

human909 wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:I'm scratching my head at your first sentence. Maybe's it's too early in the morning and my brain is still frozen. :(
I guess it was too late at night when i wrote that. Fixed now. :mrgreen:
cj7hawk wrote:Still, it's been impressively robust and has survived all testing to date - and doesn't seem to mind continuous 200w output with the occasional peak.
I'm impressed too!

(Oh I see the heatsink now, I didn't see it or the scale earlier. That heatsink is probably suitable for about 10W dissapation. So assuming 95% you might be right with 200W. You can get cheap 12V fans for computers and electronics. Throw a small fan on that an heat won't be an issue.)

*I'm no expert on these things, in fact I've never used them and I am my electronics experiences is minimal. However I know the basics and I know how to make good estimations using basic physics principles.
You did a pretty good job estimating it still I reckon :) I haven't measured the efficiency yet, but I do have two watt meters, so I might check them against each other for calibration and try to run two inline and see what the real-world efficiency is. A pity I can't graph it easily over the full power range. :(

Your first sentence makes more sense now :) - 600w quoted capacity is based on high input voltage BTW ( efficiency varies with input voltage too ) however they do advise that forced cooling is required over about 80% operation. The airflow as I ride should help that, but I have no data on ambient temps so that's all guesswork - In any event, 10A input is the effective max continuous, so 24v = 240w, which is 228w max continuous ( VA ) - Make allowance for efficiency loss in the wheel, and that's about right to tweak it up to 200w max at the wheel, which is right on the legal limit. It is possible to put several together, so 3 would handle 600w continuous at 24v, but that's still a lot to dissipate - but it would be around 10w per heatsink - mind you, I think I'd need to individually ammeter each one to get the balance right. Recommended input in multi-module use is 8A input though which explains that.

David.

eldavo
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby eldavo » Mon May 04, 2015 2:31 am

i have read of people plugging in small auxillary packs to give small voltage increase, usually when they have an aging pack that is sagging under load and can't cruise at top speed. It is inconvenient, but cost kf new packs can be prohibitive so the stop gap tides them over.

cj7hawk
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Re: Turbo electric bicycles. Supercharge your speed for ~$10

Postby cj7hawk » Mon May 18, 2015 9:56 am

eldavo wrote:i have read of people plugging in small auxillary packs to give small voltage increase, usually when they have an aging pack that is sagging under load and can't cruise at top speed. It is inconvenient, but cost kf new packs can be prohibitive so the stop gap tides them over.
Just an update - I've had the turbo circuit on the bike now for a few weeks, and tend to use it almost exclusively now - Once the power has been dialed in, it works OK and although I haven't had a good day to try it out, it does seem to have increased my flat speed to around 25 from 19 ( within limits ) - I haven't finished my dyno yet, so I use an exercise adapter and set maximum drag and power, then dial in the power meter pre-motor for 200w ( or just under ). Given around 20% losses to the wheel, that means it should be within the legal limit - and I've tested past the 25km limit to ensure the power doesn't continue to rise with voltage.

So far, it looks good. Power is OK and I have two more units on their way. I've set it to 36v optimum ( should be within the range of the controller ) and find that this provides power up to about 36 kph, with max power up to about 30 kph, but I need either a downhill section or strong tailwind to achieve either - It's pretty cool running at 30-ish under power though with just a tailwind. Mind you, it's just as frustrating to slow to about 18-ish when heading the other way, though I remind myself that 18-ish used to be around my top speed before anyway.

Anyway, there seem to be some better digital models which are like 2 of these units put together, with two coils and digital settings, so I've ordered one of those to test. But generally, this really helped with tweaking the speed to the maximum within the limit and I think at this point I can declare the experiment as a success.

Also, it seems I have found a suitable way to get boost way past the maximum speed of the motor ( based on back-emf levels ) without risking going overpowered, since the maximum voltage is only available when the power is reduced.

I still have more experiments to fully map how the system works, but it seems that this is a suitable alternative to more batteries.

Regards
David

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