To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

cj7hawk
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To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby cj7hawk » Thu May 28, 2015 11:07 pm

It's a great question isn't it? As e-bikers ( or assisted cyclists, or any preferred collective term ) we don't actually have to pedal.

Needless to say, this pretty much gets up normal cyclists noses something terrible... It's seen as cheating, it's hated on and can even result in threats and abuse and quite commonly it's described as even being illegal... Elitists sometime passionately denounce it and I won't even start on how the Strava groupies see it -

So what is the truth? What is legal? And what is good? I thought I'd open the conversation to fellow ecyclists.

Some information to get things started - This whole issue is pretty much West Coast vs East Coast also - the entire question about whether pedaling is good or bad on ebikes ( or even required ) does originate from Sydney and frequently passions around this subject eclipse common sense.

While here on the West Coast, the official ( and published ) government perspective on it is that pretty much you're not expected to pedal an assisted cycle at all, but
"Regardless of the power source, the overall range can be extended greatly if the rider does some occasional pedalling to take the load off the motor." ( ref: Cycling fact sheet #13, Bikewest, Department of Transport )
Although that's pretty much advice we take to heart - especially when tackling hills of any sort, it's not that simple in NSW where the entire issue of pedaling more resembled a shark-feeding-frenzy with bloodied cyclists at the center and the periphery.

Just to illustrate this, check out these sharks circling, uh, politicians discussing the topic in parliament from the hansard -
Ref:
PARLIAMENT OF NEW SOUTH WALES LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 2007-08-09 FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
No. 146
TUESDAY 4 AUGUST 2009
*6858 ELECTRIC BIKES—Ms Katrina Hodgkinson asked the Minister for Roads—
Given that members of the Cowra community who own GiaCarlo electric bikes are continuing to receive differing and conflicting advice from the NSW Police Force, which appears to vary with the opinion of individual officers, and that this bike is still advertised by distributors as being legal to ride unregistered and unlicensed in NSW, will the Minister provide a definitive ruling as to whether this specific bike accords with the RTA regulations for not having to be registered?

Answer— I am advised: The RTA carried out a rudimentary assessment of a GiaCarlo electric bike last year. It was found that the width of the pedal crank does allow it to be pedalled like a pedal cycle. The leverage achieved over the short length of the pedal crank makes it very difficult to operate this machine in hilly conditions or for protracted periods of time. Most importantly, the motor is able to provide power to the driven wheel without the pedals being used, from starting off to travelling at cruising speed. The seat height is fixed and cannot be adjusted which limits the efficiency at which it can be pedalled and may not be suitable for some people though this may not be an impediment for others. Power-assisted pedal cycles that comply with the definition in NSW road transport legislation are exempt from registration and licensing requirements in New South Wales. The current review of the legislation regarding these vehicles is not intended to change this situation. Currently, a power-assisted pedal cycle is defined as a pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts. A pedal cycle is defined as a vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power. So, a vehicle can be considered to be a bona fide power-assisted pedal cycle if a person can actually pedal it without the use of the motor, the maximum power output of the motor does not exceed 200 watts, and the power assistance is provided to the pedalling process.


However, riders of power-assisted pedal cycles should be aware that they may be found to be committing an offence if they are observed by an enforcement officer to be operating the vehicle by the motor alone and without pedalling. This is in accordance with the NSW Supreme Court decision in Matheson v Director of Public Prosecutions that confirmed that a vehicle is not a bona fide pedal cycle if it is operated only by a motor, and is therefore not exempt from registration. By its method of operation, the GiaCarlo electric bicycle falls into this category.
Wow ! Now it's an offence in you dare to stop pedaling your cycle in NSW !

However, this isn't actually correct - this topic was used as grounds for appeal in that case, with the plaintiff noting -
"35 It was submitted that the learned Magistrate has misdirected himself by having regard to the manner and extent of use (electric power versus pedal power) of the Plaintiff’s vehicle. To base a conclusion on this consideration, it was submitted, involved an uncertain process which may produce different answers depending upon the manner and extent of use of particular owners and riders. Such an approach, it was submitted, would not be a sensible one for implementation of a scheme for vehicle registration that required consistency and certainty."
Although this was rejected in the appeal as it was noted that the difference isn't about how the bicycle is ridden - it's that a bicycle to which an engine is added is not the same as a motorcycle to which pedals are added - the original intended use of the vehicle before modifications, based on appearance, design and function, are the key criteria...

Which pretty much leaves it open to ride on motor in NSW, which is unquestionably legal, however due to misunderstandings of the court case in question, you're likely to be picked up and prosecuted by the police where you'll have to drag out that old case from 2008 to defend yourself.

So while legal, it's clearly hated by a number of people outside of the e-cycling community. Pedalec users don't have a choice but may wish they had a throttle, and 200W PAPC riders have a choice, but face a lot of controversy either way, bringing us back to the question...

To Pedal, or Not To Pedal...

How do you ride your e-cycle and why?

Regards
David

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby biker jk » Fri May 29, 2015 8:24 am

Should be in the Motorcycles thread.

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 29, 2015 9:30 am

biker jk wrote:Should be in the Motorcycles thread.
Biker! Relax, take it easy OK? You can put the mouse and keyboard down now - no one's going to take your pedals away...

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby silentC » Fri May 29, 2015 9:35 am

Needless to say, this pretty much gets up normal cyclists noses something terrible
Good to see you acknowledge what's normal and what isn't :D

Since I'm not an e-biker or whatever, I can't really comment on what you should or shouldn't do in regards to the law but I will address your comments concerning the attitudes of 'normal' cyclists. As a road cyclist myself, I personally could not care less whether you pedal or not. Why would I? It's none of my business what you choose to do with your feet, as long as it's legal and doesn't affect me, which it doesn't. I really don't think too many other's would care about it either. Or they shouldn't anyway.

Assisted bicycles are very rare around here, I have seen exactly one. I only saw him briefly because he was turning right as I passed in my car. He wasn't pedalling. But other guys I ride with had seen him on the shared path doing what appeared to be an excessive speed for the conditions. 60 was the figure quoted but that can be a bit subjective. Anyway I hear he has got his license back now and I saw a petrol engined bike on the local buy/sell/trade Facebook page a few weeks ago so I suppose we'll see it around again.

We shouldn't judge all powered bicycle users by that one guy of course, but I suppose you should also not judge all road cyclists or 'Strava groupies' by any unpleasant experiences you've had with individuals of that 'group'. Some people have a strong objection to your bikes but I don't think that whether or not you pedal while riding them is a major factor in that. As long as they are ridden safely and are within the parameters of legal use, I think you'll find most people don't really have an issue with them, perhaps other than the perception of noise and pollution from a petrol engine on a shared path.
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 29, 2015 10:13 am

silentC wrote:
Needless to say, this pretty much gets up normal cyclists noses something terrible
Good to see you acknowledge what's normal and what isn't :D

Since I'm not an e-biker or whatever, I can't really comment on what you should or shouldn't do in regards to the law but I will address your comments concerning the attitudes of 'normal' cyclists. As a road cyclist myself, I personally could not care less whether you pedal or not. Why would I? It's none of my business what you choose to do with your feet, as long as it's legal and doesn't affect me, which it doesn't. I really don't think too many other's would care about it either. Or they shouldn't anyway.

Assisted bicycles are very rare around here, I have seen exactly one. I only saw him briefly because he was turning right as I passed in my car. He wasn't pedalling. But other guys I ride with had seen him on the shared path doing what appeared to be an excessive speed for the conditions. 60 was the figure quoted but that can be a bit subjective. Anyway I hear he has got his license back now and I saw a petrol engined bike on the local buy/sell/trade Facebook page a few weeks ago so I suppose we'll see it around again.

We shouldn't judge all powered bicycle users by that one guy of course, but I suppose you should also not judge all road cyclists or 'Strava groupies' by any unpleasant experiences you've had with individuals of that 'group'. Some people have a strong objection to your bikes but I don't think that whether or not you pedal while riding them is a major factor in that. As long as they are ridden safely and are within the parameters of legal use, I think you'll find most people don't really have an issue with them, perhaps other than the perception of noise and pollution from a petrol engine on a shared path.
Hi Silent C -

Thanks for contributing that opinion - I guess I'm mostly asking about legal e-bikes here (Electric 200w and Pedalec 250w), not petrol-bikes. The sort that rarely make it over 35, even with pedaling.

Most people won't hate on e-bike riders pedaling or not, but there's been a few articles written by e-bike riders who have switched to pedal bikes and suddenly find themselves annoyed with e-bike riders - It sounds like you're taking a very tolerant approach to all riders which is an admirable thing.

But I'm more curious as to the motivations and operations of e-bike riders - and especially how they feel about the whole pedal/don't-pedal controversy. Just hypothetically, if you did go electric, would you go pedalec or PAPC and what would your desire be with respect to pedaling? ( And saying something about not going electric would be a perfectly valid answer too ! )

I'll throw in my own thoughts here too -

I'm a pedaler. I can't help it - if my feet are on the pedals, I usually find the need to move them and since I've been testing e-bikes lately, I have to remind myself not to pedal since I'm doing range tests. It's actually pretty difficult. Also, I struggle with speeds of around 20 kph, but have found myself pedaling at speeds of around 35 on some paths, with assistance, which feels great! Generally, if the path is open, I find myself pedaling to add power to the system and find a good relaxed speed...

But when I get tired, or if I start to sweat in the heat (No end-of-ride facilities available to me), I'm also pretty OK with just resting on the pedals and letting the motor do the work for a bit.

On the other side though, even if I don't want to pedal for a bit, if I feel someone behind me, or that I'm going too slow, my legs just start moving again. It's involuntary. Usually my knees complain about it, especially at the end of the ride, but it's still difficult to avoid pedaling. Standing on the pedals from time to time is also involuntary.

Regards
David

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby silentC » Fri May 29, 2015 10:34 am

I'd be more inclined towards an electric bike than petrol. For various reasons but one of the main being that I hate filling up. I drive the car until it's nearly empty hoping my wife will fill it up because I just find going to a petrol station irritating. Usually when I'm in the car I'm going somewhere and it's annoying to have to stop to fill up.

If I had one I think I'd be a pedaller but I can think of only a couple of reasons I'd buy one. One would be ill health or maybe a knee or hip problem, both of which are on the cards for me I think. In that case I may not be capable of pedalling much. I might consider buying one as an alternative to some other form of motorised transport which would be close to the experience of riding a push bike.

If I lost my licence, I don't really go anywhere much anyway and if I did I'd just ride one of my push bikes.
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Mububban » Sat May 30, 2015 9:44 pm

I've got a 200W throttle e-assist, and I pedal constantly and use the electric motor maybe 50% of the time. I use it off the line to get up to speed, going up hills, but it gives no assistance over high 20s anyway, so there's no point having it on on the flats and downhill.

I converted my ~13 year old MTB so it now weighs 20kg total (buyer's remorse, should've upgraded to a FBR). The hubs on the MTB were always cheap, so pedalling flat out down a hill the most I've ever hit is 57kph. On the ride home I reckon I'd average just under 30kph. Without the motor my scrawny chicken legs would be averaging high teens, low 20s. I'm doomed to be skinny my whole life, it's just the way it is. I haven't gained weight since I was about 17 years old and that was 20 years ago! On the upside, I can (and do) still wear clothes I've had since I was a teenager :mrgreen:

I never coast on the electric alone as it's too slow. Why cruise on 20kph when I can pedal as well and do 30kph? As soon as you hit a hill your speed just dies on the motor alone, whereas with the motor and pedalling my average speed really is a true average - no real peaks or troughs. I arrive at work or home sweating and puffing, I've just done a mild leg/serious cardio workout rather than killing my chicken legs and feeling like my lungs are going to come out of my mouth :mrgreen:

And to be quite honest, being as p*** weak as I am, it just puts me off going on serious long rides if I'm trying to go quickly. I've commuted on and off (mostly off) for years, used to live near the hills and slogged my way up Greenmount Hill to visit friends, but as much as I love riding, it also was just painful for me.
In the year since I got the e-assist, I'll have done more kms in that year than probably the 10 before it. Sad but true. They're not for everyone but for me it's been brilliant.
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby softy » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:36 pm

I really do think the legal factor is a bit mute.

Very few bikes I have seen being riden comply with the law.
Bikes need reflectors on the pedals facing backwards in WA, so clip pedals straight away make the bicycle non roadworthy, others remove bells, reflectors etc, so I actually see very few compliant bicycles here in WA.

Now to power assist, my view is if the bike is assisted it should have a top speed around what a normal bike can go, therefore on a flat no wind day, between 30 to 40km is reasonable either pedelec or just powered. This then gives similar speeds to all bikes just one is easier to pedal.

The law at the moment has this silly law were ebikes are limited in a pedelec form (where you have to pedal like a normal bike) to 25km. This I see as silly and it would be much better to follow the US model of 32km. Then all bikes would be relatively equal.

Remember guys, once the assist cuts out you are pedalling a 25kg bike.

Personally I pefer pedelec, you just ride it like a normal bike and you are guaranteed some exercise as you can not just throttle.

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby softy » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:51 pm

I do think alot of people believe ebikes are over powered lazy things.

This is not true, the commercial ones need help to keep them going, the 200W or 250W don't go fast at all without pedaling.

I have a pedalec and I can tell you I am sweating and have a good workout on my bike. It assists only. Making hills etc a little easier only.

Before you judge, try them first, remember the ebike is pretty heavy which counteracts the motor.


The few you see going 60km, with no pedalling are home made over powered monsters. No way can my pedelec do 60km. Not even near (maybe a really big hill, but so can a normal bike).

They are fantastic for commuting when riding in all conditions and weather.

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The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:40 pm

softy wrote:Before you judge, try them first, remember the ebike is pretty heavy which counteracts the motor.
Right. Yup. Sure. :roll:
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Mububban » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:11 pm

softy wrote:I have a pedalec and I can tell you I am sweating and have a good workout on my bike. It assists only. Making hills etc a little easier only....Remember guys, once the assist cuts out you are pedalling a 25kg bike....
I've got a throttle assist on my MTB and I push myself hard to get to and from work asap using the motor as little as I can. So I'm also hot and sweaty and puffing hard when I pull up after a ride, BUT I'm not so wrecked that I hate it and feel like I'm going to have a heart attack.
My bike now weighs 20kg on the dot. Chunky monkey.
The few you see going 60km, with no pedalling are home made over powered monsters. No way can my pedelec do 60km. Not even near (maybe a really big hill, but so can a normal bike).
They are fantastic for commuting when riding in all conditions and weather.
My bike's top speed ever was 58kph, going downhill with me pedalling as hard as I could. I could feel the friction in the MTB's hubs holding me back.

For me personally and my skinny body, if I didn't have the boost for hills, I wouldn't be commuting, so I'd be just another car on the road.
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:44 am

Mububban wrote:
softy wrote:I have a pedalec and I can tell you I am sweating and have a good workout on my bike. It assists only. Making hills etc a little easier only....Remember guys, once the assist cuts out you are pedalling a 25kg bike....
I've got a throttle assist on my MTB and I push myself hard to get to and from work asap using the motor as little as I can. So I'm also hot and sweaty and puffing hard when I pull up after a ride, BUT I'm not so wrecked that I hate it and feel like I'm going to have a heart attack.
My bike now weighs 20kg on the dot. Chunky monkey.
The few you see going 60km, with no pedalling are home made over powered monsters. No way can my pedelec do 60km. Not even near (maybe a really big hill, but so can a normal bike).
They are fantastic for commuting when riding in all conditions and weather.
My bike's top speed ever was 58kph, going downhill with me pedalling as hard as I could. I could feel the friction in the MTB's hubs holding me back.

For me personally and my skinny body, if I didn't have the boost for hills, I wouldn't be commuting, so I'd be just another car on the road.
If you don't have a freewheeling motor then you will be generating quite a bit of voltage over about 30 kph on an e-bike - even if you discount electricity flowing backwards into the battery resulting in dynamic braking, you can still feel the drag from eddy currents and the likes.

Still, that cxan be useful... I have one hill I sometimes ride down, which I just find too steep to roll... I'll easily pass 60 without pedaling and I just about sit on the brakes all the way... So now I switch the turbo circuit off and let the back-emf from the wheel drain into the batteries and it slows me just enough - somewhere around 50...

Anyway, I think Softy was referring to 250w bikes only, which will cut out completely at 25 even if they can produce 700 to 1000 watts going uphill.

Mububban, just curious as to why you don't use throttle all the way? With a throttle, your pedalling will just get added to the output power and get you to work more rapidly than without it - but the effort you put in then is entirely self-determined and is paid back to you in the form of a shorter commute time - ?

Regards
David

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby eldavo » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:31 am

May differ to Mubbuban, but with a 200W geared/clutched front hub, riding above the motor efficient speed range on a single speed over 30kph it just felt like drag compared to freewheeling it, so used it to get up to speed with the tall gearing, then pedal only cruise. By then leg fitness increased, the 'lifestyle' change of daily cycle commuting was made, and made a flat bar road bike 1x9 gearing to go pedal only for spring/summer.

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Mububban » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:43 pm

I use the motor to get up to speed and help on climbs/inclines (I have pathetically skinny/weak legs that refuse to htfu), but on the flats once I'm at about 30kph there's usually very little assist from the motor so I throttle off and just pedal. As soon as it inclines too much to maintain my pace, I kick it back in so I'm not losing time on my commute. If it's flat/tailwind/downhill, using the motor above say 33kph then I can feel I'm just using battery for no positive benefit.

I can see myself buying a cheap FBR for commuting one day. Something that can go faster than 50kph down a hill without feeling like the cheap hubs on my MTB are going to burst into flames in protest would be nice :)
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby softy » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:08 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
Mububban wrote:
softy wrote:I have a pedalec and I can tell you I am sweating and have a good workout on my bike. It assists only. Making hills etc a little easier only....Remember guys, once the assist cuts out you are pedalling a 25kg bike....
I've got a throttle assist on my MTB and I push myself hard to get to and from work asap using the motor as little as I can. So I'm also hot and sweaty and puffing hard when I pull up after a ride, BUT I'm not so wrecked that I hate it and feel like I'm going to have a heart attack.
My bike now weighs 20kg on the dot. Chunky monkey.
The few you see going 60km, with no pedalling are home made over powered monsters. No way can my pedelec do 60km. Not even near (maybe a really big hill, but so can a normal bike).
They are fantastic for commuting when riding in all conditions and weather.
My bike's top speed ever was 58kph, going downhill with me pedalling as hard as I could. I could feel the friction in the MTB's hubs holding me back.

For me personally and my skinny body, if I didn't have the boost for hills, I wouldn't be commuting, so I'd be just another car on the road.
If you don't have a freewheeling motor then you will be generating quite a bit of voltage over about 30 kph on an e-bike - even if you discount electricity flowing backwards into the battery resulting in dynamic braking, you can still feel the drag from eddy currents and the likes.

Still, that cxan be useful... I have one hill I sometimes ride down, which I just find too steep to roll... I'll easily pass 60 without pedaling and I just about sit on the brakes all the way... So now I switch the turbo circuit off and let the back-emf from the wheel drain into the batteries and it slows me just enough - somewhere around 50...

Anyway, I think Softy was referring to 250w bikes only, which will cut out completely at 25 even if they can produce 700 to 1000 watts going uphill.

Mububban, just curious as to why you don't use throttle all the way? With a throttle, your pedalling will just get added to the output power and get you to work more rapidly than without it - but the effort you put in then is entirely self-determined and is paid back to you in the form of a shorter commute time - ?

Regards
David
Yes David this is true and especially on a gearless hub like mine (grace easy) fitted with the bionics system. The bionics system is pretty smart and I am certian it is so clever it adds a slight bit of drive to simulate coasting. Sometimes it feels like it is slight still driving you along. But if turned of completely it should create drag due to it trying to produce energy due to the drag of the magnets . When you slightly pull the front brake it connects the battery and you feel it braking as it charges the battery. It is good as it shows you how much energy is being generated, represented on a bar graph.

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Recycler » Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:59 pm

"Live and let live" I ride both Electric and Non Electric bikes and trikes, as I am waiting for a knee replacement.

I am interested why people worry about who rides what and who pedals or not.

Be happy you can ride at all. :D

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby softy » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:59 am

Recycler wrote:"Live and let live" I ride both Electric and Non Electric bikes and trikes, as I am waiting for a knee replacement.

I am interested why people worry about who rides what and who pedals or not.

Be happy you can ride at all. :D
Very true,

Something we should all reflect on

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby outnabike » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:31 am

Seems like a stick you head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way.

I don't mind what people do within the law. What I will say is that in the mecca of cycling that I was just in, Holland, the biggest problem cyclists have is with motorized scooter riders and pedelecs. They are on equal terms with cyclists over there and under 25 kays do not have to wear a helmet or require rego. Treated as a cycle and allowed to use the pats and share them with bikes.
Problem is they are always doing 25 even where it is unsafe, they abuse cyclists and cut them off just as cars do in Australia. One bloke yelled at me for going too slowly..... the only person I had a problem with. And I only went on a few 1 hour rides there.
You see, they are using them as transport and so as not a lot effort is required they are lazy, can maintain their speed up hills, and bully the ordinary cyclist. OK, you can say a pedelec is different and that is true. But that is how they started. then as the pressure of traffic, and alternatives have to be found the scooters got the nod.
But pedelecs opened the door to scooters and now many have genuine regrets.

Of course we can cherry pic the stuff from Holland wen it suits us but consider the same thing occurred with cycle paths. Built for cycles and now they belong to sheeple. I have seen pedelecs on paths with close calls near people, and am just waiting for the casualty reports, from pedelec hoons that just don't feel their speed after a while and will certainly run down peds.

I know some will find them handy but also where have the health benefits gone then; still some exercise is better than none.
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Recycler » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:16 am

I object to being called a Pedelec Hoon, please name them. :roll:

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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby geebee » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:32 am

outnabike wrote:Seems like a stick you head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way.

I don't mind what people do within the law. What I will say is that in the mecca of cycling that I was just in, Holland, the biggest problem cyclists have is with motorized scooter riders and pedelecs. They are on equal terms with cyclists over there and under 25 kays do not have to wear a helmet or require rego. Treated as a cycle and allowed to use the pats and share them with bikes.
Problem is they are always doing 25 even where it is unsafe, they abuse cyclists and cut them off just as cars do in Australia. One bloke yelled at me for going too slowly..... the only person I had a problem with. And I only went on a few 1 hour rides there.
You see, they are using them as transport and so as not a lot effort is required they are lazy, can maintain their speed up hills, and bully the ordinary cyclist. OK, you can say a pedelec is different and that is true. But that is how they started. then as the pressure of traffic, and alternatives have to be found the scooters got the nod.
But pedelecs opened the door to scooters and now many have genuine regrets.

Of course we can cherry pic the stuff from Holland wen it suits us but consider the same thing occurred with cycle paths. Built for cycles and now they belong to sheeple. I have seen pedelecs on paths with close calls near people, and am just waiting for the casualty reports, from pedelec hoons that just don't feel their speed after a while and will certainly run down peds.

I know some will find them handy but also where have the health benefits gone then; still some exercise is better than none.
There is nothing wrong with pedelecs only with riders, the same as with normal bikes.
A few surveys suggest an ebike is more likely to reduce weight than a normal bike due to increased use and thus exercise.

softy
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby softy » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:33 pm

outnabike wrote:Seems like a stick you head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way.

I don't mind what people do within the law. What I will say is that in the mecca of cycling that I was just in, Holland, the biggest problem cyclists have is with motorized scooter riders and pedelecs. They are on equal terms with cyclists over there and under 25 kays do not have to wear a helmet or require rego. Treated as a cycle and allowed to use the pats and share them with bikes.
Problem is they are always doing 25 even where it is unsafe, they abuse cyclists and cut them off just as cars do in Australia. One bloke yelled at me for going too slowly..... the only person I had a problem with. And I only went on a few 1 hour rides there.
You see, they are using them as transport and so as not a lot effort is required they are lazy, can maintain their speed up hills, and bully the ordinary cyclist. OK, you can say a pedelec is different and that is true. But that is how they started. then as the pressure of traffic, and alternatives have to be found the scooters got the nod.
But pedelecs opened the door to scooters and now many have genuine regrets.

Of course we can cherry pic the stuff from Holland wen it suits us but consider the same thing occurred with cycle paths. Built for cycles and now they belong to sheeple. I have seen pedelecs on paths with close calls near people, and am just waiting for the casualty reports, from pedelec hoons that just don't feel their speed after a while and will certainly run down peds.

I know some will find them handy but also where have the health benefits gone then; still some exercise is better than none.
At 25km I do believe it would be hard to bully anyone. 25km is a pretty average speed for any bike (human powered only). On my roadie I very rarely average under 25kms, and I am not the fastest rider around. I really can't see how your facts presented above relate to how a Ebike doing 25km can then bully the majority of other riders?

The real argument here is attitude, same with cars, peds and bicycles. I have seen groups of riders block paths, riders scare peds, and many more unfavorable acts. You don't need a Ebike to be a nuisance.

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outnabike
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Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby outnabike » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:03 pm

geebee wrote:
outnabike wrote:Seems like a stick you head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way.
There is nothing wrong with pedelecs only with riders, the same as with normal bikes.
A few surveys suggest an ebike is more likely to reduce weight than a normal bike due to increased use and thus exercise.


I did suggest this "Seems like a stick your head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way." Yep can tell buy the superscilliace response to Biker JK...

"There is nothing wrong with pedelecs only with riders, the same as with normal bikes." can be written as "There is nothing wrong with Vehicles only with drivers, the same as with normal cars." We are back to the age old motorist argument against Cyclists ...... :)


A few surveys suggest an ebike is more likely to reduce weight than a normal bike due to increased use and thus exercise. I guess a survey can be sought for every argument , but really hard to find or you would have quoted it.
All I have stated is a real life happening to me in Holland . No axe to grind for me I am not a Dutchman and don't speak the language.
What I was riding was a borrowed old Gazelle 8 speed internal hub and I averaged around 16 klm / hr sightseeing. Relatively when a bloke buzzes you with out warning at 25 kph on his pedelec it is concerning I can tell you. It is not as though it was a car, but it still catches you by surprise.

For my part if some one is gong to take it personaly and pull the word hoon out of my post and then cry over applying it to themselves; Well don't ask opinions of others and you won't get opinions you don't like.
That's it for me, guys sorry to upset the mindset of the post designed conclusions. I will fade away and not concern my self with this post.
Vivente World Randonneur complete with panniers

geebee
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby geebee » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:11 pm

So your statement was based on a single incident when you were overtaken by an ebike?

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Mububban
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby Mububban » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:17 pm

geebee wrote:There is nothing wrong with pedelecs only with riders, the same as with normal bikes.
Isn't it interesting that the "Us vs Them" that we cyclists complain about when it's motorists vs cyclists, is so readily transferred to "real" cyclists vs e-cyclists, using the same arguments that are commonly discounted when it's cars vs bikes. Sigh. Us vs Them seems in-built to human nature.
geebee wrote:A few surveys suggest an ebike is more likely to reduce weight than a normal bike due to increased use and thus exercise.
I've had my ~2003 mountain bike upgraded with a 200W front wheel motor in January 2014, and in the (almost) 2 years since then, I've done more kms than I would have done in the 10 years before it. Sad, I know, but having your own personal tailwind every time you hit a hill or a headwind really removes most of the mental and physical barriers between choosing to use the bike over the car. I have scrawny little chicken legs so other people's reasons may vary, but the end result is me on my bike MUCH more than I would otherwise be.
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

cj7hawk
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Re: To pedal or not to pedal - That is the controversy.

Postby cj7hawk » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:07 pm

outnabike wrote:
geebee wrote:
outnabike wrote:Seems like a stick you head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way.
There is nothing wrong with pedelecs only with riders, the same as with normal bikes.
A few surveys suggest an ebike is more likely to reduce weight than a normal bike due to increased use and thus exercise.
I did suggest this "Seems like a stick your head up and I will kick it thread, but here goes any way." Yep can tell buy the superscilliace response to Biker JK...
Well, it was a discussion thread and Biker JK's comment wasn't on topic - He didn't really say how or why he rides.

But your comments about not pedaling aside, have you ever tried a power assisted cycle?

Part of my reasons for not wanting to be forced into pedaling myself are around a 26km commute ( 52km round trip ) and not being able to clean up when I get to work, so being able to slack off when it gets hotter is quite important to me. I still can't stop myself pedaling, but I can adjust my pace and effort, and still get to work in a reasonable time. On colder days, I can make the trip in 1hr. I'm hoping it will be around 1.5hrs maximum when I take it easy.

As for slowing for pedestrians? Yes, I do slow - more than most of the other cyclists around me - but then, it's really easy to get back up to speed. Having the motor ( and throttle ) really makes it easy.

And headwinds and climbs are the other issue. Generally I find the motor makes it a lot less tiring.

Ultimately, I couldn't make the distance without assist - at least not at the moment - but riding helps my knees a lot and is improving my health - even if I do use a motor.

Regards
David

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