Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[high_tea]

Don't know why you are so intense about this - I'm not saying it's actually an argument for ped helmets. It's just reductio ad absurdum - a rhetorical argument to get people to think about helmets in a different way and to see how their mandatory requirement for some types of cycling is as stupid as enforcing them for peds.

Also, I don't agree with your naturalistic distinction about walking. Humans response to that was another reductio ad absurdum that indicated its 'appeal to nature' fallacy.

It's not reductio ad absurdum, it's begging the question, or whatever you call it in Latin. Based on the unstated premise that regulating operators of a vehicle - cyclists - and people who aren't operating one is, in the context of transport regulation, equivalent. Which is nonsense.

[il padrone]

Sorry high_tea, I do not see the argument in that light at all. The whole point was to show the irrelevancy of requiring helmet-wearing as mandatory for anybody in what might be regarded as normal human-powered travel on the street.

[fat and old]

Helmets a useless... Sssshhh

Nice straw man there, but no prize.

Helmets are not useless, the risk of cycling is just not high enough to mandate helmet wearing on pain of a large fine.

Fat and Old, I would love to ride around without a helmet, and if you're willing to pay any fines I incur, then I will. The fine is the only reason I wear one at the moment.

On the other hand, I'm not going to mandate that you can't wear a helmet on a bike. Go ahead, not my decision. Pity how I am denied my choice.

DS

No you're not. No one can make you do it. You choose not to.

I've been arrested and fined for marching in the Kennet years (unionist). I've been forcibly removed at various protests and marches for social and environmental causes. I pay fines pretty much yearly for using the Hume Fwy at 110-120 kmh because it's more than safe. If I didn't want to wear a helmet, I'd make a stand. So forgive me if I feel that with all due respect, you can pay your own.

[Xplora]

fat and old, I'm glad you feel that paying extortionist bribes to the state is acceptable, because I do not. You are a citizen of this nation, you should not have to pay any more to use the road simply because you move at jogging pace faster than a sign. If it is safe, then the signage should reflect that. You shouldn't be that dealing with that burden. In a similar way, appropriate protesting as a unionist, or on a religious or ethnicity issue, should not attract fines either.

That's where the rubber hits the road - fair and reasonable is the order of the day. The consequences for people in accidents can be devastating, but we haven't banned ladders or knives or alcohol or fires or LPG bottles or shoelaces. Society works better when we work together, but do some driving in peak hour. The gridlock is caused by the boofheads trying to make up 2 car lengths, not the other cars plodding along. They rush forward, hit the brakes too hard, and cause a flow on for everyone else behind. This is compounded until you've got virtual gridlock on a 100kmh road. The M2 in Sydney is a classic. There are no lights, and very few exits, there is no excuse for the traffic jams, except people are too impatient to give the cars in front some space to allow small errors like braking or lane changes create small ripples instead of furious waves as people prop to avoid a crash. We have to work together!

But a helmet doesn't help us work together. If anything, it excuses dangerous driving by riders and drivers - "it's OK if I have a prang, the helmet will stop me from hospital stays" (BTW untrue).

The MCL for peds is a bit of a funny one... it highlights the reality that we've philosophically moved into dangerous territory. People choose to not wear clothes at the beach. This is a social norm. But they still get skin cancer, eaten by sharks, sand in the cracks... if you want to force a helmet on my head "for my own good" with the threat of a fine if I don't, I say address the much bigger killers out there. From a logical approach it's just not sensible to support the MHL.

I bought an Evade helmet today aero is king.

[DavidS]

Fat and Old, more than sympathetic about paying fines for demonstrating, I've only been arrested demonstrating in other states! Also a unionist although I will add that I've never been arrested at a demo related to union or work matters, just making sure we don't give ammo to any who want to paint unionists as constantly being arrested!

However, I do find the fine for not wearing a helmet prohibitive. What is it >$200? Absolutely ridiculous. I ride through the city every day and would likely get fined quite a lot. I already ditch the helmet for the last 1KM for the ride in and about 5KMs for the ride home. The calculation is based on how likely I am to get a fine. Making it illegal to ride a bicycle without a helmet takes my choice away, and for no good reason given how safe cycling is. I just want them to remove this bloody stupid law and stop discouraging cycling. I should add that I have noticed I tend to be given more room by passing cars when not wearing the lid.

DS

[softy]

Actually wearing a bicycle helmet in a union march may offer more benefit than when riding a bike.

Hmmmmmmm!

[fat and old]

fat and old, I'm glad you feel that paying extortionist bribes to the state is acceptable, because I do not. You are a citizen of this nation, you should not have to pay any more to use the road simply because you move at jogging pace faster than a sign. If it is safe, then the signage should reflect that. You shouldn't be that dealing with that burden. In a similar way, appropriate protesting as a unionist, or on a religious or ethnicity issue, should not attract fines either.

It all comes down to your interpretation of "appropriate"

As for fines, meh.... that's the price you pay for breaking the law. I have no real issue with that. Don't ever do the crime if you can't pay the fine.

DavidS..... respect for your stance, and I understand the financial issue. Still, sometimes you have to wear some pain to get what you want. Hopefully you get to make the choice you want to legally in the future

[il padrone]

However, I do find the fine for not wearing a helmet prohibitive. What is it >$200? Absolutely ridiculous.

Actually it's about $170 for the TIN, but if you take it to court and it's found against you (highly likely) it is $740

[DavidS]

However, I do find the fine for not wearing a helmet prohibitive. What is it >$200? Absolutely ridiculous.

Actually it's about $170 for the TIN, but if you take it to court and it's found against you (highly likely) it is $740

That is a ridiculous penalty, in or out of court. You get less for a lot worse offenses.

DS

[il padrone]

Here you go - a hemet-free ride being organised by Freestyle Cyclists, next Sunday.

Our Castlemaine guide Louise, pictured here in the Castlemaine Botanical Gardens today, riding along the route we will be taking next Sunday on our Pizza and Bike Ride.

The leisurely ride, (about 15km) includes parts of the historic town, trails by the Forest Creek and Happy Valley Rd and returning through the Gardens to a location where pizza will be served by Mud Brick Pizza.

Meet at Castlemaine Railway Station at 11.10, Sunday November 30th.

RSVP if you are having lunch with us. Contact Kathy or Alan 03 54226216 or 0481 372 956.

[Xplora]

fat and old, I'm glad you feel that paying extortionist bribes to the state is acceptable, because I do not. You are a citizen of this nation, you should not have to pay any more to use the road simply because you move at jogging pace faster than a sign. If it is safe, then the signage should reflect that. You shouldn't be that dealing with that burden. In a similar way, appropriate protesting as a unionist, or on a religious or ethnicity issue, should not attract fines either.

It all comes down to your interpretation of "appropriate"

As for fines, meh.... that's the price you pay for breaking the law. I have no real issue with that. Don't ever do the crime if you can't pay the fine.

DavidS..... respect for your stance, and I understand the financial issue. Still, sometimes you have to wear some pain to get what you want. Hopefully you get to make the choice you want to legally in the future

You can be jailed for quite a lot of things that come down to "interpretation"... China has very different views on protesting, Tianamen Square is a famous example... we are talking about what is fair and reasonable. Expressing your views shouldn't come with jail time if you aren't inciting violence, just as travelling from point A to B should not come with a fine. As HT said, we are talking about fundamental human rights. He has happily drawn the line at pedestrian movement as a human right, I believe it should be extended to human powered transport.

I've done a bit of Z1 riding these past two days, just pootling in 39/23, and there is no way that such riding deserves any regulation whatsoever beyond the regulation expected of pedestrian behaviour. No possible way of hurting a head, or inconveniencing another person. No need for an MHL

[mikesbytes]

My mate sure was happy he was wearing a helmet yesterday. Ride in an ambulance to hospital with a concussion and some stitches put in. Would of been a lot worse without a helmet.

Crashed on his own of the balmain side of the bay run of all places... No witnesses unfortunately... Not sure how he did it.

Italics sums it up - I bet everyone would have preferred to just "not crash". What the hell was he doing riding so fast that he wasn't able to manage his risks? Is your friend under 12?

If I smashed my head up so badly that there was that much blood on the helmet, I'd probably prefer to have a helmet on, but it's ridiculous to force everyone else to comply with my preferences "Because I Am The Only One Who Knows What Is Good For Them". Parents dictate what their kids do, but adults are supposed to make their own choices - banning them from making a choice that only hurts them is highly unusual in our society.

Don't understand your post Xplora. Sychen's post is about his mates accident and doesn't debate whether helmet laws should be mandatory.

Sychen can correct me on this if I've got it wrong. There isn't really anywhere to go fast on the balmain side of the bay run. It is an odd accident something unexpected must of happened like loosing the front end by hitting an object.

About 2004 I broke a scapular not far from there on Hawthorne canal, I came over the footbridge about half way up and got T-boned by Labrador (is that the right spelling?) who was playing with another dog and didn't see me. Went straight over 'bang'. I think I fell off because I was going so slow 8kph and this was also the cause of the break because I hit the ground straight rather than glancing off it like I would of if I was going faster

[human909]

Don't understand your post Xplora. Sychen's post is about his mates accident and doesn't debate whether helmet laws should be mandatory.

I do not understand your post mikebytes. Sychen's post was in the MHL thread. In this context and with his anecdote and a picture of a blood ridden helmet, there is a clear point intended here.

I think most of us have heard enough anecdotes. Though if we think such things contribute to this topic, I could post a picture of my unbroken and unbloodied helmet from every ride. Or a picture of my unbroken skull following my helmetless rides.

MHLs haven't been shown to save lives. In fact there is strong evidence that they cost lives. But why look at the issue when we can dismiss it with bloody ridden helmets?

[mikesbytes]

A helmet saved my life

[39x25]

Thanks Mike... No there was no argument in my post. Merely pointing out my mates incident and that he was glad to have the helmet. It was in an benign place... With minimal third party danger. No he is not 12 but he is accident prone... And he is French... Lol

Seems by third hand report he went over the bars... May have been a sandy corner. Mate doesn't remember so he's pretty useless for testimonials.

[human909]

A helmet saved my life

You are doing yourself and your position as a mod a disservice here. You cannot get a more blatant troll than that.

[mikesbytes]

A helmet saved my life

You are doing yourself and your position as a mod a disservice here. You cannot get a more blatant troll than that.

Have I misunderstood your post? I thought you were saying that helmets don't improve safety

[human909]

No. I was not saying that. There is a massive difference between discussing helmets and discussing MHLs. I wear a helmet in a multitude of sports where they are not compulsory. I value and recognise their uses. Though I would also be quite reluctant about making counter factual claims regarding what would have occurred had I not been wearing one.

[DavidS]

A helmet saved my life

Then you should choose to wear one . . . oh wait, it's not a choice is it?

DS

[Xplora]

What was the objective of Sychen's anecdote? It could be compulsive over sharing- more likely it is pushing that helmets are good therefore mandatory use should be enforced.

There are many good arguments against such a proposition. I had a bad experience with a brunette once, therefore all brunette should be banned. The decision to accept that the helmet was decisive in protecting him misses the equally compelling story about why the rider needed the helmet in the first place. Lots of people trip and fall and get seriously injuried without a bike being involved. Should we advocate for helmets for all? The weak point is human brains and skulls in collisions, not a bicycle.

The debate needs to start from the right place and Sychen's post is a great example of how to get it wrong.

[softy]

This highlights the crutch of being against MHL.

I am not against helmets
I am not against safety
I am not against wearing helmets

I am against compulsory laws forcing you to wear helmets!

If the law is revoked tomorrow, everyone can still choose to wear a helmet anytime they like. In fact I would use one most of the time, as I comute considerable distance. But I wouldn't wear one to the corner shop. I have the choice to evaluate the risk.
So How dangerous is this activity?
Most of the world can do this, have free choice and they are NOT dying of head injuries like fly.

The discussion is choice.
Choice to either wear or not wear. Take your own responsibility when riding a pushbike.

[il padrone]

The discussion is choice.
Choice to either wear or not wear. Take your own responsibility when riding a pushbike.

This was already the 'problem' in 1989. In Victoria ~80% of people already chose to wear a helmet when cycling. The incidence of head injuries was alreay falling. Cycling had been booming through most of the 80s.

The trauma surgeons decided to excercise their 'choice' to lobby for the helmets to be made mandatory, thus take away all responsibility And take away a big slab of the cycling boom.

[Xplora]

A bit of a thought bubble, but I wonder how we'd go with forcing bus and train (and tram) passengers to wear helmets, since they don't wear seatbelts either? I bet patronage would plummet.

Cycling isn't significantly more dangerous than those activities.

[mikesbytes]

The prime topic of this thread is to discuss Mandatory Helmet Laws, however the title also includes the works "& stuff", which we have seen quite a bit.

Please correct me if you think I've got it wrong, but these are the main points being discussed;
1. Whether helmets should be mandatory or optional
2. The impact of participation due to mandatory helmet laws past and ongoing
3. The effectiveness (or lack there of) of helmets to reduce head injuries
4. The cause of head injuries in cycling [and their effectiveness in those situations]

There's a lot of hot debate about what is a hot topic and most of the time we do a good job of debating the topics. Occasionally we get a bit heated and say things we shouldn't of said

[Mulger bill]

I rode nude nut today.

Just less than a km in my quiet cul de sac after changing wheelsets on the commuter and readjusting brakes, no other vehicles and only one ped

I am neither dead nor out of pocket. Strange that.

Now, to really scandalise a few. I was wearing my slippers on SPuD pedals