Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

fat and old
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby fat and old » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:10 pm

Drizt wrote:Who here is actively doing something that is reaching the decision makers?
15 years or so ago, I started agitating various councils and Vic Roads to use "bikesafe" grates on their drains. It took a long time (and I certainly wasn't the only one) but now all new constructs use these and in fact insist on them. 3 years ago we started using them on reconstruction and rehab works for Vic Roads on our own instigation and now they insist on them. 5 years ago we started trying to change COM to use them (the only council that I know of that doesn't) and have slowly been making inroads with test sites. We are now using them on most rehab works where they are in a cycle lane and in some new construction. We've done quite a bit of other work with councils and Vic Roads relating to road safety for both cyclists and Moto riders, mostly at our instigation.

18 months ago I started commuting to work on and off, and ditched the car completely last April or May. By October I had 1 employee join in, by Cristmas there were 4 of us ( out of 13). We're now looking at how to implement some sort of travel allowance for the cyclists. This will take a while but I hope to work it out.

Not MHL's, I know. But I've been doing something that directly affects us all. It's not hard, it just requires a will to do it and persistence.

How about you?

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Drizt
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Drizt » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:14 pm

My wife and I are constantly sending videos to councils to ask for change or maintenance of bicycle infrastructure. The council's react slowly but they usually get the job done. Maybe not as effective as bitching and moaning on a forum of people who already agree with us.....

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il padrone
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:22 pm

Great work, F&O. Most impressed by your actions.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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il padrone
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:25 pm

Drizt wrote:Maybe not as effective as bitching and moaning on a forum of people who already agree with us.....
If people "already agree with us" why has this thread ballooned out to 305 pages?
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Drizt
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Drizt » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:26 pm

Cause the same 5 people have posted 70% of the posts...

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:40 pm

Drizt wrote:Arguing on a forum accomplishes what exactly?
Shouldn't you be asking yourself the same question? But then it seems you are just trolling for your own perverse pleasure.

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Drizt
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Drizt » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:41 pm

For sure.

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yugyug
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Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby yugyug » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Drizt wrote:What chance (over what time frame?) do you give for mhl to be repealed? Lots of whining over something that won't change.....
My optimistic guess is 5 to 10 years for the MHL to be relaxed for footpaths and shared paths like in the Northern Territory for a majority of states. A few years after that for non enforcement on the roads country-wide. I don't think the MHL will be fully repealed for decades though, until it becomes an entirely vestigial, historical law.

In answer to your other question, over the last year I've written to council, state govt. and various state orgs about MHL issues. It's hard to say what's effective. Recently I submitted to the citizens jury in SA though and eventually that jury's report resulted in a state govt commitment to allow footpath cycling, a key stepping stone to MHL relaxation. This process put me in touch with other committed MHL repeal advocates, so we/they are out there.

though it seems we've argued a bit here Drizt, it's pretty good that your are on this thread taking an interest. The biggest obstacle to MHL relaxation or repeal are the many cyclists who just indifferent, comfortable wearing a helmet themselves and indifferently think it's acceptable to force them onto others. Unfortunately some of these cyclists seem to be in powerful advocacy positions too eg BNV, AGF. That's a massive problem.

My perspective is that every keen cyclist should examine the evidence, read the arguments for and against and form a strong opinion on MHL. For sure there will always be some in the pro MHL camp, but I think should this happen the vast majority will be against.
Last edited by yugyug on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Drizt
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Drizt » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:06 pm

I missed 2 weeks of cycling recently due to an infection I had on my forehead caused by wearing a helmet. It would clear up but as soon as I started wearing a helmet again the rash would come back.

Cleaned the helmet and washed the lining... Didn't make a difference. Started with sigmacort (steroids) to bring down the inflammation which works a treat. Now I've started wearing halo cycling caps (breathable / wicking etc) and the issue seems to be gone (manageable).

I asked about a helmet exemption and none of the doctors would have a bar of it. Told me it was irresponsible.

Moral of the story is that I can't see people changing their minds on mhl. It's ingrained now and here to stay.

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yugyug
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Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby yugyug » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:16 pm

Doctors will be the last hold outs because they suffer from a strong confirmation bias - they see so many injured cyclists as part of their job.

Personally I think it's really irresponsible of them not to give you an exemption. That reason seems as good as any other worth skipping the marginal benefits helmets provide (depending on your riding style).

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il padrone
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:36 pm

Medicos are the nutters who pushed hardest to inflict this foolish rule upon cyclists.... but not upon motorists who would be equally at risk of preventable head injuries.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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simonn
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby simonn » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:16 pm

yugyug wrote:Doctors will be the last hold outs because they suffer from a strong confirmation bias - they see so many injured cyclists as part of their job.
Everyone suffers from confirmation bias.

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outnabike
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby outnabike » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:59 pm

fat and old wrote:
Drizt wrote:Who here is actively doing something that is reaching the decision makers?
15 years or so ago, I started agitating various councils and Vic Roads to use "bikesafe" grates on their drains. It took a long time (and I certainly wasn't the only one) but now all new constructs use these and in fact insist on them. 3 years ago we started using them on reconstruction and rehab works for Vic Roads on our own instigation and now they insist on them.

How about you?
Good idea,
I am going to approach the owners of this servo to see if they can install a better grid. And my tyres are 32's and probably considered wide.
I reckon if you ride into this it will be a bit of a helmet tester.... :)

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yugyug
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Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Postby yugyug » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:08 pm

Sure simonn, but what's your point relevant to MHL? The confirmation bias of doctors is relevant to MHL because it concerns the perception of injury and because doctors are asked or compelled to comment on safety regulations.

Back to Drizt's point - just like with the recent changes in south Australia (yet to be enacted) from the citizens jury or the effects of the 2013 expert committee in Queensland, MHL repeal doesn't actually require a majority of people to actively support it. Just needs a small group of rational clear thinking people to propose it, an even smaller number of legislators to understand and action the recommendation and for cycling advocates to support it, or at least not block it. Outside the perpetually inflamed motorists commenting in the online tabloids, the majority won't have much say about it. Except some of those bloody doctors of course!! ;)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:54 am

outnabike wrote:
Good idea,
I am going to approach the owners of this servo to see if they can install a better grid. And my tyres are 32's and probably considered wide.
I reckon if you ride into this it will be a bit of a helmet tester.... :)

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You mean to tell me that is NOT a bike parking facility. :shock: :lol:

human909
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:47 pm

Is it time to wave goodbye to Melbourne Bike Share?
The new Victorian government has to decide what to do about the lacklustre performance of Melbourne Bicycle Share. One possible action could be to exempt it from the mandatory helmet law

Interesting.... Alan Davies has often written on the topic of MHL. And it normally he has seemed to sit on the side of the fence supporting MHL. Though last article he seems to have changed his tune.... I find this kinda funny because last time I commented on his last article I did suggest that he was questioning his faith.

NOVEMBER 2014
human909 wrote:His articles almost read like a priest who is desperately trying to justify their faith through convoluted facts and arguments. Yet deep down he is beginning to question is own faith which just makes him thoroughly unconvincing.
human909 wrote:Give Alan 10 more years and he will be writing articles supporting the removal of MHL. :lol:
So pat myself on the back for my prediction, though I did overestimate the time it would take for him to reassess his conviction. At the moment his change of heart is only for bikeshare. But really, it seems untenable for MHLs to remain for private bicycles long term while not be in place for bike share.


In his own words:
I wasn’t persuaded until recently that giving MBS an exemption was worthwhile unless the law was changed for all cyclists (unrealistic). The reason I’ve changed my view is mostly because of the mounting evidence built up over the last five years (there are now circa 600 bike share schemes worldwide) showing that bike share users are much less likely to be killed or seriously hurt than private cyclists. :mrgreen:

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DavidS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby DavidS » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:02 am

human909 wrote: In his own words:
I wasn’t persuaded until recently that giving MBS an exemption was worthwhile unless the law was changed for all cyclists (unrealistic).


In what way is this unrealistic? What a silly comment. Interesting this, not so long ago exempting the bike share from the silly MHL was unrealistic. Signs of movement maybe (or wishful thinking)?

human909 wrote:The reason I’ve changed my view is mostly because of the mounting evidence built up over the last five years (there are now circa 600 bike share schemes worldwide) showing that bike share users are much less likely to be killed or seriously hurt than private cyclists. :mrgreen:
Really, any evidence to back that up Mr Davies? Are we looking at per KM figures? I understand bike share schemes world wide have proven to be safe, but just maybe this reflects that cycling just isn't all that dangerous, geez one might even claim it is a healthy activity!

What a farce MHL is.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:28 am

DavidS wrote:Really, any evidence to back that up Mr Davies? Are we looking at per KM figures?
YES
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/ ... r-cycling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No surprises there really the bikes are slower and located in areas of slower traffic and higher bicycle concentration.

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g-boaf
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:49 pm

Bikeshare systems shouldn't be exempt from MHL. Either you remove the requirement completely (except for racing), or you have it on everything. Excluding one portion of cycling is just going to make a legal mess.

It doesn't bother me if they remove MHL completely - I'll still wear a helmet, but if it gets some unfit youngster into riding a bike then so be it.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:51 pm

g-boaf wrote:Bikeshare systems shouldn't be exempt from MHL, Either you remove the requirement completely (except for racing), or you have it on everything. Excluding one portion of cycling is just going to make a legal mess.
I'm all for a Bikeshare only exemption only because it would be the thin end of the wedge. :wink:

And as far as bike racing goes there doesn't need to be a legal requirement, nor is there currently one as most races aren't on public roads (a road temporarily closed off is no longer a public road). Of course race organisers make the rules and generally require helmets.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:00 pm

human909 wrote: And as far as bike racing goes there doesn't need to be a legal requirement, nor is there currently one as most races aren't on public roads (a road temporarily closed off is no longer a public road). Of course race organisers make the rules and generally require helmets.
There is actually. The law requires a magic hat to be worn at all times when riding a bike.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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g-boaf
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:08 pm

human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Bikeshare systems shouldn't be exempt from MHL, Either you remove the requirement completely (except for racing), or you have it on everything. Excluding one portion of cycling is just going to make a legal mess.
I'm all for a Bikeshare only exemption only because it would be the thin end of the wedge. :wink:

And as far as bike racing goes there doesn't need to be a legal requirement, nor is there currently one as most races aren't on public roads (a road temporarily closed off is no longer a public road). Of course race organisers make the rules and generally require helmets.
What happens if a bikeshare person has an accident without wearing a helmet? Liabilities, duties of care, etc? A two tier system just seems a bit unworkable. Might as well just get rid of it for everyone, but put in a sort of caveat that if you don't wear a helmet, you accept the risk, etc. I would say most riders who wear helmets would still continue to do so.

With races, roads often are not temporarily closed off. Intersections may have traffic controllers to stop the traffic as the riders proceed through the intersection, but the race still continues on with traffic on the road. This is my experience anyhow. I think it is increasingly difficult here in this state to get roads completely closed off for some little bike race that most people don't seem to care about. Shame that, because for instance, the crit races are not bad to watch. Typically small courses so you can see the action happening from one place.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby yugyug » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:37 pm

Duck! wrote:
human909 wrote: And as far as bike racing goes there doesn't need to be a legal requirement, nor is there currently one as most races aren't on public roads (a road temporarily closed off is no longer a public road). Of course race organisers make the rules and generally require helmets.
There is actually. The law requires a magic hat to be worn at all times when riding a bike.
Yes, but the road rules are suspended for closed road races, allowing racers to ride on the opposite side of the road, more than two abreast, not have bells etc. Theoretically this could extend to suspending the helmet law, not that it ever would because race rules now will always require helmets.

The broader point is that cycling organisations whose interest is in racing should respectively put some distance between themselves and the debate because their own rules already cover the interests of their members and will continue to do so in absence of an MHL.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby yugyug » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:43 pm

g-boaf wrote:
What happens if a bikeshare person has an accident without wearing a helmet? Liabilities, duties of care, etc? A two tier system just seems a bit unworkable.
The purpose of changing to the law would be to do just that - exempt bikeshare schemes from liability should a rider choose not to wear a helmet. That said, there would still be liability issues between any parties involved in a collision, thats already part of Australian law, meaning that not wearing a helmet now can mean you assume part-liability, a percentage of costs, for any head injuries you may suffer even if the collision was not your fault (thats also been true in cases in the UK with no MHL in place). I'm not sure anyone could know how much that percentage might change should there be a bikeshare exemption here.

I agree that in the long-term an exemption would be unworkable, but its TOTALLY worth lobbying for because in the short-term it will increase the number of people using the bikeshare and destabilise the validity of the MHL for everyone else.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:53 pm

I don't think the racing should require the helmet, EXCEPT WHERE UCI/CA/CNSW RULES REQUIRE IT.

If you want to start your own association, go for it, but I don't think we need to single out racing for special treatment. Let the governing sporting body decide, regardless of the "law".

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