One thing that needs to be cleared up, is judges are not like "Judge jury" where the judge listens to both stories and then makes an opinion judgement.
It is far more complex than this, the law has to be analysed, other cases studied using similar cases, or a similar interuptation to make a ruling. It is done via research, not opinion.
A judge doesn't go this guy is just trying to get off , of course you have to wear a helmet and go guilty. If you can show the law is not clear or does not define wearing a helmet in park you have not broken no law and the judge needs to accept information that highlights this that is presented in court.
Does MHL apply to parks?
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- outnabike
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby outnabike » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:00 pm
I was sort of leaning to this definition....I mean this is ground breaking info you would be putting to the court. I reckon they would just kick the can down the road of...."we rule, you get a penalty, up to you to take it further."softy wrote:One thing that needs to be cleared up, is judges are not like "Judge jury" where the judge listens to both stories and then makes an opinion judgement.
It is far more complex than this, the law has to be analysed, other cases studied using similar cases, or a similar interuptation to make a ruling. It is done via research, not opinion.
A judge doesn't go this guy is just trying to get off , of course you have to wear a helmet and go guilty. If you can show the law is not clear or does not define wearing a helmet in park you have not broken no law and the judge needs to accept information that highlights this that is presented in court.
"StevOz wrote:
The real thing to consider is that if you do cop a fine for such you will be found guilty by any and all of our first court judges and without doubt have to pay the extra expenses of challenging the fine. Then you could appeal and maybe just maybe have the case thrown out, whilst still having to pay considerable more in time and fees challenging the original fine without any definitive outcome. You could then appeal again and again pay more for another uncertain outcome, which would cost you more time and money. After several years and thousands of dollars if you can make it to a Supreme court judgement you will still be out of pocket, time and most likely the only result will be no change or an adjustment of the regulations and laws to ensure no such case could ever pass an appeal in the future. That's the reality of it hypothetical vehicles and definitions there of are very much meaningless."
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:31 am
I was in discussion with a cop and another cyclist at the start of the Freo to Perth group of the recent Santos Great Bike Ride.
The conversation strayed briefly to MHL. Interestingly when I suggested that the MHL, among other legalities, appears not to apply to parks and other places remote from roads he was aware of and confirmed this.
It may be obscure to us but not, apparently, to a cop.
Thanks BTW to the cop that was there. He was helping out in his own time in support off another officer who was rostered on for it.
The conversation strayed briefly to MHL. Interestingly when I suggested that the MHL, among other legalities, appears not to apply to parks and other places remote from roads he was aware of and confirmed this.
It may be obscure to us but not, apparently, to a cop.
Thanks BTW to the cop that was there. He was helping out in his own time in support off another officer who was rostered on for it.
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby StevOz » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:11 am
That's all very fine and well, though you talk to a different cop in a different setting and I'm sure you'll get a different answer. Also if you did get a fine from that different cop and challenged it do you think you could get that other cop to testify in your favour?
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby Aushiker » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:11 pm
A bit late for this, but given the earlier discussion this publication from the Western Australian Parliamentry Counsel's Office might be a useful resource of those interested in legislation and regulations. It is called "How to read legislation, a beginner's guide" and was published in 2011.
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby Scott_C » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:06 pm
Whilst the topic here is the Mandatory Helmet Law, it is just part of the WA Road Traffic Code 2000 (WA Road Rules) and the limits of application of the Road Rules applies to all offenses covered therein. Whilst they may not have covered it specifically in the context of helmet laws it is vitally important that every traffic cop knows the limits of where the Road Rules apply and where they do not.StevOz wrote:That's all very fine and well, though you talk to a different cop in a different setting and I'm sure you'll get a different answer. Also if you did get a fine from that different cop and challenged it do you think you could get that other cop to testify in your favour?
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Re: Does MHL apply to parks?
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:32 pm
Then you challenge it. I don't know if you have read the thread through but the law here is pretty clear. And as jurisdiction of legislation is pretty basic I imagine than most cops get it right, even if the average Joe in the street will be unconvinced.StevOz wrote:That's all very fine and well, though you talk to a different cop in a different setting and I'm sure you'll get a different answer. Also if you did get a fine from that different cop and challenged it do you think you could get that other cop to testify in your favour?
While not the subject matter of this thread, someone may wish to chip in with the process to get a charge dropped if it is so obviously wrong that the police would not want it to progress to court. (Loss of cops time, day off work for the person charged, waste of court time, professional embarrassment etc.)
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