Express your interest in the Cycling(Vic) Rules Review Works

[BianchiCam]

Looking through the Vic Roads site and trying to emadjcate myself in the wake of my close shave the other day and I came about this.

I have not hear anything through here and kept an eye on the Vic sub section (which is pretty quiet)

Any peeps around that day (I work down the Pen on weekends so am unable to make it)

It is on the 20th Feb so not too far away. Is it just a 'look to be doing something' kind of thing.
Would be a good platform to raise the split rule.

'A community consultation workshop on cycling road rule recommendations will be held on Saturday 20 February 2016.

The workshop will cover:

Cycling and left hand turns
Certain situations for cycling on footpaths
We’re seeking a diverse group of road users. If you’re interested and can make yourself available for 4 hours on Saturday 20 February 2016'



What happens next?

December 2015: Draft rules that require amendment and present to Government.
February 2016: Deliver a community consultation workshop on road rule recommendations related to left hand turns and some specific circumstances for cycling on footpaths.
March 2016: Develop a new communication and public education strategy to better communicate road rules that are lesser known or that need further reinforcement.
October 2015 - June 2016: Undertake special projects on left hand turn and roundabout road rules, bus lane use, riding on footpaths in specific circumstances, and consideration of cycling when undertaking road works.


By the sounds of it. Looks like 'window dressing'

http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2449244/E ... law-review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BianchiCam]

oh dear. Hope this does not mean BN ( sorry edit. Typed BA by mistake)

VicRoads will use the report to guide further discussions with the community and stakeholders to determine the top issues and priorities.

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/newsmed ... road-rules" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This independent report is based on an online survey from 2014 which attracted 10,450 Victorian residents, along with stakeholder feedback, a literature review and an analysis of crash statistics.

The ten years from 2004-2013 saw 29,181 crashes involving cyclists, with 84 people killed and 4,447 sustaining serious injuries. The data also suggests that Tuesdays the worst day of the week for a crash involving cyclists.

[human909]

oh dear. Hope this does not mean BA.

What does BA mean?


While I maintain a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the commitment of VicRoads to significant improvement, the proposals do on the whole seem sensible.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media ... ashx?la=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


One bit that I found particularly grating was:

"Compulsory helmet wearing laws are often mentioned when discussing cycling related rules. This
was also the case during stakeholder consultation. The stakeholders interviewed unanimously
agreed that the laws should not be repealed."

If that was what their stakeholder consultation found then clearly the stakeholders they were talking to weren't representative of the broader cycling community. Of course VicRoads got the result they were after. They never went into this with an open mind on MHLs, their contribution to the Federal Red Tape inquiry proves that.

[bychosis]

Woo hoo, here comes the bigger fines and mandatory ID if NSW is anything to go by.

[human909]

Woo hoo, here comes the bigger fines and mandatory ID if NSW is anything to go by.

Thankfully we don't have a road minister who loathes cyclists. Have a read of the document, it mostly is positive stuff for cyclists.

[human909]

Some of the negatives:

Consultation showed that it can be frustrating for
drivers when bicycle riders ride two or more abreast,
but there can be safety benefits for bicycle riders.
• The majority of people understand the rule, but
levels of support differ between road users.
• Consider changing to provide that by using new
regulatory signage at selected locations riding 2
abreast is not allowed e.g. on particularly windy
narrow roads

That is plainly absurd. Windy narrow roads is EXACTLY where 2 abreast has the greatest benefits. It shows a fair bit of ignorance about safe passing of cyclists.

Some advocacy groups want to see a minimum
passing distance introduced.
• Many people already thought this was a rule. Bicycle
riders strongly support it and a moderate majority of
other road users support it.
• No change at this stage – substantial evaluation
required. Monitor the trials in Queensland and ACT to
see whether there is evidence of safety outcomes.
Other infrastructure issues may also need to be
considered in the Victorian context

Apparently they need to wait for "substantial evidence" to tell them that passing a cyclist with a decent clearance is safer than passing within cms of a cyclists.

[il padrone]

Some of the negatives:

Consultation showed that it can be frustrating for
drivers when bicycle riders ride two or more abreast,
but there can be safety benefits for bicycle riders.
• The majority of people understand the rule, but
levels of support differ between road users.
• Consider changing to provide that by using new
regulatory signage at selected locations riding 2
abreast is not allowed e.g. on particularly windy
narrow roads

That is plainly absurd. Windy narrow roads is EXACTLY where 2 abreast has the greatest benefits. It shows a fair bit of ignorance about safe passing of cyclists.

Oh, I guess I don't mind too much if they try to ban riding two-abreast on winding roads. I will just make sure that I am riding in the middle of the road at all opportunities

Some advocacy groups want to see a minimum
passing distance introduced.
• Many people already thought this was a rule. Bicycle
riders strongly support it and a moderate majority of
other road users support it.
• No change at this stage – substantial evaluation
required. Monitor the trials in Queensland and ACT to
see whether there is evidence of safety outcomes.
Other infrastructure issues may also need to be
considered in the Victorian context

Apparently they need to wait for "substantial evidence" to tell them that passing a cyclist with a decent clearance is safer than passing within cms of a cyclists.

Maybe Qld's 80% drop in cyclist fatalities just doesn't count ??? Arse-hats!

[human909]

Arse-hats!

Indeed.

They was certainly some sincerity about surveying the public and then implementing some changes. But it is also quite clear that addressing a few of the issues have been taken off the table by VicRoads decree.

[il padrone]

Some of the comments re concerns with roundabouts and left-side overtaking raise a niggling worry in the back of my mind:

When travelling through or around a multilane roundabout, bicycle riders must give way to drivers exiting the roundabout. This may mean the rider has to stop one or more times within the roundabout (depending on how many exits they are riding past). This could be dangerous for the bicycle rider and other road users.
• This requirement may make it necessary for bicycle riders to look behind them when approaching each exit to know whether they need to give way. This may affect the rider’s balance and stability.

No overtaking etc. to the left of a vehicle
- Needs further review with a view to change due to complications when examined next to other rules.

The Vicroads 'SimpleFix' for each of these would be to simply place all the responsibility on the cyclists - this would be no surprise.

For roundabouts I would be gravely concerned that they would outlaw right-lane right turns ie. driving through as a vehicle ("after all , its for the safety of all cyclists") and then require all cyclists to come to a stop before each exit to give way to traffic (the cars of course!). There is no mention made that this progression through roundabouts in the right-lane is legally correct, allowed despite shoulder bike-lanes, and generally the much safer approach. What freakin' stakeholders have they spoken to - recreational numpty riders only?

For left-side overtaking, it would not surprise me at all if Vicroads just made it illegal for bicycles.

[human909]

The Vicroads 'SimpleFix' for each of these would be to simply place all the responsibility on the cyclists - this would be no surprise.

For roundabouts I would be gravely concerned that they would outlaw right-lane right turns ie. driving through as a vehicle ("after all , its for the safety of all cyclists") and then require all cyclists to come to a stop before each exit to give way to traffic (the cars of course!). There is no mention made that this progression through roundabouts in the right-lane is legally correct, allowed despite shoulder bike-lanes, and generally the much safer approach. What freakin' stakeholders have they spoken to - recreational numpty riders only?

For left-side overtaking, it would not surprise me at all if Vicroads just made it illegal for bicycles.

Maybe I misunderstand you but from where I sit, I don't think the question cyclists performing riding as a regular vehicle through roundabout is at all on the table for discussion.

However the existing law allowing cyclists to ride left is atrocious and does have the 'SimpleFix' already applied. It has created a dangerous situation when councils put cycle paths around the perimeter of roundabouts.

[il padrone]

No, I realise that it is not. But legally, this one is 'in question'.

The law is not made clear, as we are legally compelled to use a bike lane where provided, "where practicable". Is the lane through a roundabout to be followed, or is a vehicular right turn legally correct? Statements from Vicroads have said the right-lane turn can be done, but the road rules are confused on this. The Vicroads report makes no mention that a right-lane turn is even possible, just stating:

When travelling through or around a multilane roundabout, bicycle riders must give way to drivers exiting the roundabout

I do not foresee Vicroads giving cyclists in the roundabout bike-lane priority over motor vehicles in lanes alongside.

Far easier to just compel all cyclists to stay in the bike lane and stop for all cars, just like good little boys and girls

[bychosis]

They just can't see that a fit cyclist can often get around a roundabout quicker than a car when using the roundabout like a car.

[find_bruce]

Woo hoo, here comes the bigger fines and mandatory ID if NSW is anything to go by.

Thankfully we don't have a road minister who loathes cyclists. Have a read of the document, it mostly is positive stuff for cyclists.

Except for the minor inconvenience that Vic already has the bigger fines, waved through with a thank you very much by BNV, which has done 3/5 of 5/8 of not very much for reducing the number of fatalities & injuries

[il padrone]

From Vicroads' November 2015 update:

3. Deliver five special projects by June 2016:
Particular recommendations in the report require further investigation in order to better understand their implications.

The findings from these projects are expected by June 2016. VicRoads will then inform stakeholders and community members of what the outcomes are and advise of the next steps.......

.......c. Cyclists on multi-lane roundabouts - VicRoads is undertaking a project to address roundabout design and how the road rules work in conjunction with different designs, which will report in early 2016. Following this project VicRoads will consider how infrastructure and road rules inter-relate and investigate what implications any changes to roundabout design and guidelines might have for cycling related road rules.

I await with bated breath the news in June of their proposals on "different designs" and "how road rules work" with them. Now if they want to introduce and redevelop the designs of roundabouts sate-wide, like the Dutch model, I would be completely in favour.




However I fear that something much lesser will be foisted upon us.

[BianchiCam]

I cannot imagine 'average Joe' expected to be slowed down for a roundabout. It's unAustralian not to barrel through roundabouts, often straight linning them in the process.

[il padrone]

I cannot imagine 'average Joe' expected to be slowed down for a roundabout. It's unAustralian not to barrel through roundabouts, often straight linning them in the process.

A habit that is born from the flawed design of the roundabouts. Vicroads traffic engineers maintain a focus on 'flow' to the detriment of safety, especially that of vulnerable road users. They know this, but they maintain their unsafe designs.

The Dutch designs are more like what is termed a 'traffic circle' in this image. The tighter angle of entry, and exit, demands that vehicle drivers slow down more and check for other vehicles on the roundabout.... and in the Dutch designs, on the surrounding bike-paths (which they must give way to).

[antigee]

not sure why Vicroads needs to research roundabouts this doc' from Austroads pretty much has it covered, however the logic of doing new research when all the existing research shows current policy is wrong is not a new one - roundabouts are all about safe traffic flow (aka speed) for motorised vehicles. Encouraging cyclists to behave like pedestrians makes sense in this logic.

https://www.onlinepublications.austroad ... AP-R461-14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

need to register to read - but is pretty easy

[warthog1]

I know not alot of vicroads, perhaps others know more? I have emailed them about sharrows in the past.
They were not receptive.
My opinion is that they are very automobile centric.
Bicycles appear to be seen as a problem to be managed by corralling them out of the way of cars.
The green lane treatment on the perimeter of roundabouts is a case in point. Worst place for a bicycle to be positioned in a roundabout and one (of the) place(s) where it is advisable to claim the lane some distance out.

[human909]

I know not alot of vicroads, perhaps others know more? I have emailed them about sharrows in the past.
They were not receptive
My opinion is that they are very automobile centric.
Bicycles appear to be seen as a problem to be managed by corralling them out of the way of cars.
The green lane treatment on the perimeter of roundabouts is a case in point. Worst place for a bicycle to be positioned in a roundabout and one (of the) place(s) where it is advisable to claim the lane some distance out.

That summerises VicRoads. They are still living in the dark ages as far as catering for cyclists goes. Councils are decades ahead. In many areas that can mean decent bicycle facilities everywhere but on a VicRoads maintained road. (Though generally that haven't been anti bike like the RMS/Duncan Gay.)

not sure why Vicroads needs to research roundabouts this doc' from Austroads pretty much has it covered

Maybe they don't like the results of that research so they need to do more research until the results are to their liking.

[Mulger bill]

Maybe they don't like the results of that research so they need to do more research until the results are to their liking.

Or, if in a Druncan state of mind, comission half a dozen surveys and ignore them all because they rely more on facts than ideology.

[BianchiCam]

Just fired off a missive to the Vic Roads Minister.
Suggest any like minded peeps do the same. Don't ask. Don't get eh?

Good Morning Luke,

Just a short note to add a small but important voice behind the on-going push to put cyclist safety at the head of list of things to consider at the upcoming Community Consultation workshop on the 20th Feb.

I am a 42 year old father of 3 and took up road biking as a way of commuting and keeping fit (middle age worries) around the Mornington Peninsula areas.
I ride around 150km per week on what should be relatively quiet roads that are poorly policed ie speed.
I ride with camera, bright lights and jersey. Ride predictably and also use a mirror to see any potential problems from the rear.

Unfortunately not a day goes by when I am not 'shaved' by a motorist either in a car or truck. Mostly when there is an oncoming vehicle approaching and the gap is so much more narrow.
Either through negligence, ignorance or simply as a 'punishment pass' all because it seems I am on their road.

Please, please please.
If the Victorian government is not willing to introduce such measures or deterrents to such dangerous and impatient passing of vulnerable road users (split passing laws). At the very least, could there be much more education put forward to motorists and also cyclists in their roles as 'road users'?

Surely the financial burden for the state must be incredibly high due to the injuries/deaths sustained in what is really an easy thing to avoid?

If ever you want to see the depth of ignorance displayed towards road rules/ who pays for what and general victim blaming of people who ride a bike. Look no further than any comments page in our online papers or Facebook. The trend is extremely worrying and unless there is education (and deterrents) out there, this will continue as surely as day follows night.

I understand there are a range of possible new rules being discussed and considered. What good is more complicated and obscure rules if people are ignorant of our current ones?

My you tube channel is filled to the brim with very near misses, being run off the roads and general life threatening instances. In the 3 cases I have put to the Police with clear evidence,/measurements asking them if they could at the very least notify the driver that they are driving too close. I have been knocked back with the line "Unless you are hit, there is nothing we can do (or will do)" How demoralising it is to hear that. To the point that I either don't document many, many close passes and certainly do not waste my time taking such cases to those that I thought were there to help me.

These two clips are what I and many others have been putting up with as a 'legitimate road user' simply because we are on a bike.
https://youtu.be/ICKHs4FvaQE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a less than a metre pass at over 100kmph v someone that either rides or understands the need to pass safely. Please not my bicycle does not get buffered around with a considered pass.
https://youtu.be/rt9Oq3jiOQg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At the end of the day. It is not the policy and decision makers that will have to knock on my front door to notify my wife of 16 years and 3 beautiful children, that "Daddy isn't coming home again"

I thank you for your time and can only hope your team are the ones that stand up and help stop this carnage.
Whilst I wave a thanks to those that spare a few extra seconds to safely pass me, it is not those drivers that need this deterrent.


Regards,

[il padrone]

Maybe they don't like the results of that research so they need to do more research until the results are to their liking.

Or, if in a Druncan state of mind, comission half a dozen surveys and ignore them all because they rely more on facts than ideology.

Must be a NSW disease. Just watched the Four Corners program on shark nets, and the NSW Fisheries officials are taking the same approach to scientific data on shark net effectiveness

Fisheries - "We know they work and are saving lives"

Scientist researching 40 years of shark data - "No, I can show you the data; there is no connection between numbers of sharks and frequency of shark attacks"


Does this sound at all familiar ??? Cue MHL (that other thread)

[fat and old]

Poor old Vic Roads. I think they may spend more than any single council on Cycle associated works, and get no love at all

[human909]

Poor old Vic Roads. I think they may spend more than any single council on Cycle associated works, and get no love at all

They don't get love from the Councils either. When councils want to implement change VicRoads frequently gets in the way of things.

VicRoads can't even get basics right like provide bike racks at THEIR OWN OFFICES. This is despite the fact that their Carlton office is deep in the heart of Australia's densest region of cycling in Australia. (Last time I visited there were two of us wandering around the front entrance scratching our heads about where cyclists were meant to park.)

In contrast all inner city councils cater well for bicycles at their office's. Last time I was in the bike store "Spokes", I saw a fleet of a dozen electric gazelles destined for Port Phillip/Yarra I can remember which. Suburban ones too seem getting in on the act too.

[il padrone]

In contrast all inner city councils cater well for bicycles at their office's. Last time I was in the bike store "Spokes", I saw a fleet of a dozen electric gazelles destined for Port Phillip/Yarra I can remember which. Suburban ones too seem getting in on the act too.

I can support this point. Knox City Council has had clear bike plans encouraging greater use of bikes in the municipality to replace car use. Unfortunately a large proportion of their goals depend on Vicroads for either action, authorisation, or funding

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/media ... e_Plan.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I can go back to one day, way back in 1998, when we had cause to visit the Knox Council offices, and one of the staff showed us the collection of bikes (about 20-30) parked in an area in the atrium of the building, and told us they were all the council bike fleet for staff use.