Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[fat and old]

I will say it...you are quite correct Human. As always. I wish you well with your endeavours convincing the rest of the community of your grasp of the facts. You've certainly won me over.

[baabaa]

DS, maybe re-read what you have posted. My point is not about changing legislation but that you state to Bunged Knee that you do not have options and yet you have three, stop biking, keep biking with a helmet or do as some others like myself do and find the right mix of riding with and sometimes without.
All these issues you outline are your problems not mine. I don’t care if you ride or not. I am also fully aware that the anything which is opposed to MHL is not getting traction and would suggest that this whole discussion reflects why. Again, just do real stuff as you feel able or just move on, but division with your comments to other people who bike like Bunged Knee is not helping.
Your questions, yes in a way, by speaking at the highest level in NSW i.e. the then Premier who was the local member and being in some of the same social groups, I know that legislation will not change, but the enforcement of the law fluctuates and Manly is an example of what can be done locally. And while I don’t even consider HML as being any more than a minor issue, I think safe biking is, so I am a member Australian Cyclists Party and have been active with two local councils and the state govt levels enough to have my activities included in the last nsw bike plan and no, I don’t read anything H909 posts but did I suggest you go and get arrested? No, just that getting a fine is very rare across the various states so this should not stop you riding without a helmet if you so wish. You do have a choice and you choose to not risk a fine which is fair enough.
Anyway enough from me, I will let you and the other experts go back to your own Devils Island and solve this with another 30 odd years of endless around and around discussions.

[Bunged Knee]

(AT) baabaa, I think that you meant DS was replying to Dodgy-Knee, not me as my last post in this thread was on 13/8/15 in p322.

[uart]

I am certainly not pro MHL but the constant whingeing and lecturing on the www by just a very few anti-mhl, has made me very much in the anti anti-mhl camp.

So that means you are just a hater then. And a hypocritical one at that!

Seriously, your talents are wasted here. I suggest selling your bikes and signing up over at: https://www.facebook.com/Aussies.Over.Cyclists/ You'll meet lots of like minded people operating on a similar intellectual capacity.

[fat and old]

If you're not with us, you're agin us.

What a childish, narrow minded attitude

[uart]

If you're not with us, you're agin us.

What a childish, narrow minded attitude

No, that completely misrepresents my position Fat and Old. This is not at all my attitude to MHL supporters in general. I understand that they have their opinions and I respect that.

Please look at the comments of the particular member I referred to, and see why I formed that opinion in this case.

- He lives in Manly and admits that he rides without helmet whenever he feels like it (because the helmet laws are rarely enforced there).

- He is not pro MHL but is very anti anti-MHL. Why?

- He dismisses other people's struggles with MHL (those who aren't fortunate enough to live in a non MHL enforcement location), calling them whiners. Pretty easy to "diss" others when the law in question apparently doesn't even apply to you isn't it! He even tells H909 that he should just suck up the fines or stop riding.

In my opinion this makes him a hypocrite of the first order. Small minded with a total "I'm all right Jack, foork you" attitude!

[human909]

Not to mention the continuous assumption that I want to ride without a helmet. My desire to see MHLs repealed has VERY little to do with me not wanting to wear a helmet.

[DavidS]

Baabaa it is clear you don't care because you are lucky enough to live somewhere the law isn't enforced. I suppose my other option is to move to Manly where they don't enforce the silly law.

I choose to wear the helmet most of the time since I don't want to flush $200 down the drain. I would choose not to wear a helmet. I do believe in civil disobedience but only if it has some chance of success.

I am as active as I can be without racking up lots of fines, hence participation in the helmet optional ride. I know facts, like that riding a bicycle is not actually particularly dangerous, have no impact on the powers that be. Cycling is not a big enough issue to get change, not enough people care, not sure what arguments will appeal, this is not an easy issue to get traction on.

But stating that the law is not enforced is clearly false, stating that many of us do nothing is based on supposition not evidence and the fact you live somewhere where you can get away with not wearing a helmet (other than in the over 190 countries where that is legal) is irrelevant to the rest of us.

I wish I knew how to get traction on this silly, failed law but I don't have the solution. Maybe if more people turned up to things like helmet optional rides we might get more attention.

DS

[fat and old]

If you're not with us, you're agin us.

What a childish, narrow minded attitude

No, that completely misrepresents my position Fat and Old. This is not at all my attitude to MHL supporters in general. I understand that they have their opinions and I respect that.

Please look at the comments of the particular member I referred to, and see why I formed that opinion in this case.

- He lives in Manly and admits that he rides without helmet whenever he feels like it (because the helmet laws are rarely enforced there).

- He is not pro MHL but is very anti anti-MHL. Why?

- He dismisses other people's struggles with MHL (those who aren't fortunate enough to live in a non MHL enforcement location), calling them whiners. Pretty easy to "diss" others when the law in question apparently doesn't even apply to you isn't it! He even tells H909 that he should just suck up the fines or stop riding.

In my opinion this makes him a hypocrite of the first order. Small minded with a total "I'm all right Jack, foork you" attitude!

I have looked at his comments. Now look at yours

Even if I accept your description of him as a hypocrite, with the

"I'm all right Jack, foork you"

How does that compare with this single description of cyclists lifted from the page you advised him to frequent as a like thinker

Its times like these you wish you had a James bond car with rockets and cool !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! to blow em to smithereens

????

You're a mile off the mark here. I see no comparison at all.

[fat and old]

The single most common misunderstanding of the Anti-MHL'er...

This is not at all my attitude to MHL supporters in general. I understand that they have their opinions and I respect that.

I have not gone though every single page in this thread. But I can remember most of the last 3 years, and think it's safe to say.

There has not been one instance of a PRO MHL cyclist pushing his/her views.

There have been many pro helmet wearers post. Many indifferent posters. Many Anti-MHL yet pro helmet posts.

Yet if they do not agree with the prevailing Helmets are Evil sentiment, they are Pro MHL.

Just the same as Human feels victimised as anti-helmet.

I know this for a fact. I will wade in, and without exception my posts have called into question the veracity of the claims, or the poster's attitudes or style. And the answer? Helmets are bad, and this is why.

I KNOW THAT!

Man, it's tough being the whipping boy.

[baabaa]

uart,Yeah, I think I do agree with that and may get a badge or even a t-shirt saying just that.

DS, yes being in Manly is lucky but it is not by luck that it is soft on enforcement.
A few of us have been hard at both Manly and Warringah Councils, pushing for more than 25 years for reduced CBD and suburban speeds, better bike routes with signs, shared paths, separate green bike paths in the Manly CBD and then supporting the businesses that thought they would loose out by the removal of car spots outside their business by buying their stuff and chaining bikes out the front. We have demanded a hard a say in not allowing routes for what town planners think is the best way to bike by getting them on bikes and riding with them. This has taken a bloody lot of my time and far more for others. BUT helmets hardly get mentioned during these meetings.
We are now seeing the results of this work and all these meetings and the locals have a sort of unwritten agreement with the police that as Manly is safe to bike, we try and make this clear by continuing to ride without a helmet to the surf, shops and ferries. People will ride up to foot police and stop for a chat about the surf or the number of tourist or whatever, they don’t fine as they know us and will take this message up into the higher state management. I also trust that any younger Police members will take on the positive interaction to the next location they get posted to.
My kids did and can still ride to the local schools without a helmet just as I did. The online MHL debate or discussion is not an issue with the locals who bike; we just never accepted the law so just continued to do the same as we what we did before it. So I think I actually earned my choice to ride without a helmet if I wish, but what Manly now needs is for you and others to visit and ride without a helmet to keep this momentum going.
So yes any action is good. I think towns like Dubbo and Albury are pretty much on the way to being loosely helmet optional like Manly. I was also thinking about what you said about paying your fines and yes I think I would like to help in some way but consider it would be better to ride with you or on your routes and get my own fine.

H909 yeah right it is all about you, but where have I told you to do anything, my discussions have been with DS and the only reference I made to you is that I never read what your posts so may have missed something about saying I suggest people to get arrested.

[MichaelB]

...I wish I knew how to get traction on this silly, failed law but I don't have the solution. Maybe if more people turned up to things like helmet optional rides we might get more attention.

DS

My bolding.

Therein lies the story.

Hardly anyone but a few keyboard warriors think it's a big enough deal to make a fuss ...

[bychosis]

Interesting points baabaa. I agree that it only seems to be the inner city blitz and the media that carry on about helmets. I'd wager most police aren't really interested in picking on people out for a 'Sunday ride' without a lid, they have more important things to do. I've seen plenty of people on 'cruising' paths without helmets. Surely if it were an issue for the police they would be out 'revenue raising' every weekend. There is enough media attention to helmets that surely the vast majoirty of riders choosing not to wear a lid are aware they should be under MHL and make some sort of decision to wear or not.

However, the police may well target individuals that look to be unsavoury types based on no helmet using it as an excuse to stop them, then carrying out further searches etc. I think there was an example locally of that where a rider was stopped for no helmet and ended up with an assault police charge or similar.

[human909]

...I wish I knew how to get traction on this silly, failed law but I don't have the solution. Maybe if more people turned up to things like helmet optional rides we might get more attention.

DS

My bolding.

Therein lies the story.

Hardly anyone but a few keyboard warriors think it's a big enough deal to make a fuss ...

To badly quote Martin Niemölle. A big part of it is that they came for the helmetless cyclists almost 30 years ago... So now there are few left to speak up about it in Australia. Cycling has returned to being a 'sport' for enthusiasts rather than a normal recreation or transport option.

I also find it odd that you describe people who actively turn up to protest events as keyboard warriors. Isn't that the exact opposite?

Interesting points baabaa. I agree that it only seems to be the inner city blitz and the media that carry on about helmets. I'd wager most police aren't really interested in picking on people out for a 'Sunday ride' without a lid...

From my observations and anecdotal evidence it depends significantly on states. In Victoria the police have held a tight grip on the rule and police it with vigor. It is a rare month indeed in which I spot a cyclist without a lid.

[fat and old]

It is a rare month indeed in which I spot a cyclist without a lid.

Then I respectfully call into question your eyesight.

It is a rare day in which I do not see a helmetless rider. Predominately in "your area". In fact, we are working in Ltl Collins St (I know, not "your area".) at present. I see 3 or 4 helmetless riders a day riding down one block during my on site hours (8.00am-2.00pm).

Shall I supply pictures to support my claim, or are you happy to accept my word for it?

[DavidS]

I reckon I am noticing a few more cyclists without helmets, always a good sign I reckon as they are demonstrating just how safe cycling is.

I especially like it when I see kids riding without helmets, shows their parents have a decent attitude that you can't wrap your kids in cotton wool.

But H909 is correct, Vic Police are very diligent with enforcing this law. Although I got off with a caution the last time I was pulled up it was lights and sirens . . . you'd think a major crime was being committed.

DS

[human909]

It is a rare month indeed in which I spot a cyclist without a lid.

Then I respectfully call into question your eyesight.

It is a rare day in which I do not see a helmetless rider. Predominately in "your area". In fact, we are working in Ltl Collins St (I know, not "your area".) at present. I see 3 or 4 helmetless riders a day riding down one block during my on site hours (8.00am-2.00pm).

Shall I supply pictures to support my claim, or are you happy to accept my word for it?

I am happy to take your word for it.

And while I'm doing so, can we in this thread move to a more respectful tone? There wasn't a need to called into question my eyesight, not that I'm offended but it just was unnecessary. Note though, that I do say WE and that includes ME.

But H909 is correct, Vic Police are very diligent with enforcing this law. Although I got off with a caution the last time I was pulled up it was lights and sirens . . . you'd think a major crime was being committed.

I saw some poor bloke pulled over lights and sirens last month. I would have been cheeky and given the cops an earful about better things to be policing except for the fact that I had just past the same cops 1minute earlier whilst towing a second bike alongside... I did wonder whether the cops noticed or whether they just couldn't figure out which law I was breaking!

(I normally give cops the respect they deserve, which is often high. But I don't see a reason to be giving respect for them pursuing something that is not a crime pretty much the world over including despotic states.)

[baabaa]

But how is the number of people you see riding without a helmet relevant? Do your homework, it really is about your own raw data and quite simple to count the number of police you see on all your rides over a month or even better over different three months to calculate your own risk of being fined.
Alas, the raw data of changing legislation in any state would take about 8.75 seconds to calculate.

[DavidS]

Seeing people riding without helmets is relevant as it shows a willingness to risk high fines to ignore a silly law.

Count the number of police? Really? On busy streets in a big city I can't be looking everywhere for the cops, I have enough to concentrate on. It would be at least a few times a week I see the police on the roads I ride.

I noticed in the thread about obesity there was a reference to making cycling fun and easy/safe for newcomers. This law does the opposite and discourages cycling, it also gives the perception that cycling is far more dangerous than it is.

DS

[uart]

Regarding the number of police and the frequency of fines being issues. Don't underestimate the chance of you becoming a target and having those odds rise dramatically if you do decide to protest this and become a recurrent offender.

Sadly I noticed in Sue Abbott's blog last month that her latest fine occurred on a very lightly used (almost zero traffic) dead end gravel road, about 9 km out of a very small country town (Scone), and just a few hundred metres from her home. Apparently a member of the public phoned police to report "she's at it again"

I'm not sure what part of this that I find the saddest. That someone would resort to calling the police over such a minor thing, or that they would actually bother sending two officers and a car 9km down a dead end gravel road in response.

[human909]

Alas, the raw data of changing legislation in any state would take about 8.75 seconds to calculate.

Does that include territories? NT has had a wonderful time of effectively getting rid of MHLs.

But again you are missing the point. This issue is about the message MHLs send and the damage it does to cycling participation.

[fat and old]

Sadly I noticed in Sue Abbott's blog last month that her latest fine occurred on a very lightly used (almost zero traffic) dead end gravel road, about 9 km out of a very small country town (Scone), and just a few hundred metres from her home. Apparently a member of the public phoned police to report "she's at it again"

I'm not sure what part of this that I find the saddest. That someone would resort to calling the police over such a minor thing, or that they would actually bother sending two officers and a car 9km down a dead end gravel road in response.

This is what happens when you upset people in a public forum. They take revenge. It's neither unusual, uncommon nor a misunderstanding.

I had a good read of that blog, along with a little historical back ground. I'm impressed with her persistence if not her consistency. It leaves a lot to be desired, and paints a picture of somebody who will grab at any excuse to get her way.

[human909]

This is what happens when you upset people in a public forum.

How is the general public upset by somebody not wearing a helmet? Oh yes, the immature childish response of 'she's breaking the law' OH MY!. If people get upset or annoyed about such about other people's personal choices then that reflects upon them.

It leaves a lot to be desired, and paints a picture of somebody who will grab at any excuse to get her way.

Yep. I'd grab at any excuse to defend myself against an unjust and ludicrous law. It is how our adversarial legal system works. It isn't about right or wrong. Just or injustice. It is about legal wranglings.

[fat and old]

This is what happens when you upset people in a public forum.

How is the general public upset by somebody not wearing a helmet? Oh yes, the immature childish response of 'she's breaking the law' OH MY!. If people get upset or annoyed about such about other people's personal choices then that reflects upon them.

Do you know her position in the Community at all Human? She's a Councillor in whatever area she lives in. With a far left agenda and the fortitude to speak up. Of course she's going to have enemies/opponents in that situation. Not based on whether or not she wears a bloody helmet or not. The constant thumbing her nose at that particular law merely gives her opponents a way to mess with her.

Look at the bigger picture mate. It's not all about the helmet.

[DavidS]

I'm not familiar with Sue Abbott but I support her civil disobedience. There are many times in history that some civil disobedience would have made the world a better place, sometimes it is needed on big issues and sometimes on small issues.

Hmm let's look at her blog: nothing far left I can see, all quite conservative as far as I can see: opposes being choked by pollution, just conserving the fresh air; opposes MHLs, I think MHLs are radical, as do 98% of countries on this planet - just not the sort of radical I agree with; wants to have a recycle bin for plastic bags - far left? - no, almost left would be banning plastic bags, recycling is conservative, far left would be encouraging an end to rampant consumerism.

DS