Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[yugyug]

This pic was just posted on Adelaide Cyclists, if you haven't seen it before. I think its a nice visual summary of the problem:

[human909]

I would suspect that a significant proportion, if not most, cycling injuries are from recreational cyclists which has seen a remarkable boom.

Even if that was so how does this help the argument for MHLs? If that was true all it does it muddy the waters slightly?

I say if that is true because it is not clear to me that cycling including recreational has increased. (I honestly don't know the statistics.) From what I've seen youth cycling has dropped dramatically. Adult cycling as a % has possibly dropped to some degree. The 5% who do cycle regularly do plenty more ks though. But like I have said, im simply not sure.

(The booms that are abundantly evident is the lycra clad boom and the inner city cyclist boom. But as a % of the population this is still low.)

[human909]

This pic was just posted on Adelaide Cyclists, if you haven't seen it before. I think its a nice visual summary of the problem:

WOWSERS YUGYUG!! Do you know where that picture of the bikes was taken? I'm amazed that is even Australia. But the gums in the background give it away.

Interestingly yugyug. I could show the opposite pictures for Melbourne University of the last decade and a half. Helmets or no helmets, the explosion of cycling in Melbourne's inner north is remarkable and joyous. A multitude of factors have made this happen but like I have said before Melbourne's inner north is the brightest beacon in Australia for commuter cycling. The tipping point has been that cycling is now simply the thing to do for those living in this area. People move in and see everybody else doing it so they do it to. Plus it simply makes sense because traffic is terrible and destinations are generally close by.

Getting back to helmets. People have always been reluctant to wear big heavy uncomfortable things on their head. But the growth in urban style helmets has been quite evident too.

None of this are arguments for or against MHLs. Just some interesting ramblings....

[yugyug]

Interestingly yugyug. I could show the opposite pictures for Melbourne University of the last decade and a half.

Which is awesome but not reflected in the nearby high schools... Uni being the time when the kids get to do their own thing independently no matter how "dangerous" their parents think it might be...

I hope when these Melbourne uni students start having their own kids they'll let them ride to school.

Helmets or no helmets, the explosion of cycling in Melbourne's inner north is remarkable

But compliance is high, even among the uni students isn't it? Cycling a few Melbourne city blocks to uni must be so safe that its a shame the helmet fine is so outrageously high in Victoria.

[human909]

Which is awesome but not reflected in the nearby high schools...

Well actually it is. I would expect the high schools and primary schools too have some of the highest rates of cycling in the country. (Though probably well below what was 30 years prior.) Maybe when I go past next I'll try to spot the bike racks and take a photo (without being arresting for creeping).

EDIT: Here we go! Here is one of the local high schools. A bike rack that runs most of the length of the street. Bikes even parked on campus outside of classrooms. Bikes chained to fences, etc... Granted it would not surprise me if this school has the highest cycling rate in Australia. Though more students probably WALK rather than cycle. (The school stands out in the census as a place of employment for cycle commuters too.)

But I'm not trying to use this as an argument that is supportive of MHL! I am just having a glass half full view of the current conditions and what IS possible.

I hope when these Melbourne uni students start having their own kids they'll let them ride to school.

Yep... That is exactly what has been happening in this microcosm of Melbourne. But the area is the exception, not the rule.

[macca33]

I'm hoping that people are not inferring that the reduction in children riding pushbikes to / from schools is due to MHL??? I would suggest that there are factors, other than having to wear a helmet, which have contributed to the lessening of this activity...

cheers

[yugyug]

Here we go! Here is one of the local high schools. A bike rack that runs most of the length of the street. Bikes even parked on campus outside of classrooms. Bikes chained to fences, etc... .

Thats awesome! Goes to show what supportive councils can achieve. I have heard that school biking has picked up around the Bourke St cyclepath area in Sydney, but not so sure its so evident yet...

I'm hoping that people are not inferring that the reduction in children riding pushbikes to / from schools is due to MHL???

Yes I am/we are. There is plenty of evidence posted here over the last couple dozen pages, including the new Clarke paper just under discussion. The mechanisms are simple to understand too. 2 of them: 1. Teenage kids, especially teenage girls, don't like wearing helmets. 2. Helmets make cycling look dangerous, deterring parents from letting their kids go to school by bike.

I would suggest that there are factors, other than having to wear a helmet, which have contributed to the lessening of this activity...

Absolutely true too - not mutually exclusive to your first sentence. The rise of helicopter parenting, dual income, two car families etc. On the flipside, as Human's post indicates, good councils, improved infrastructure and a new generation of parents who just can't stomach the hassle and cost of car ownership, all work to ameliorate the damage done by the MHL as well.

[human909]

I'm hoping that people are not inferring that the reduction in children riding pushbikes to / from schools is due to MHL???

That is exactly what is being said. Have a chat to il padone about his experiences as a teacher during that time. Yugyug has responded quite well but I'll add my bit.

No doubt some of the influence was "helicopter parents". But that doesn't explain everything. For example the number of children walking to school dropped far less substantially than the number of children cycling to school (see below). Even in Copenhagen they had some parents getting worried and stopping children from cycling when "scare" campaigns regarding helmet wearing were run.

One study from Victoria found that the number of children walking to and from
school every day declined by approximately 10% between 1985 and 2001 (from
an average of 4.4 trips/week to an average of 3.6 trips/week), while the number
of children cycling to school halved during this time (from an average of 1.2
trips/week to an average of 0.4 trips/week)

http://www.deakin.edu.au/research/src/c ... book-7.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[fat and old]

From the study h909 linked to

Dramatic changes in active commuting patterns have also been seen among youth in the United States. In 1969, approximately 41% of students walked or cycled to school, and in 2001 this proportion had decreased to only 13%.

That's a period of 31 years. The Victorian example was over 16 years. The US doesn't have MHL's. What am I to infer from this?

[human909]

That's a period of 31 years. The Victorian example was over 16 years. The US doesn't have MHL's. What am I to infer from this?

You could infer lots of things. I think it is clear to most, that parents these days are increasingly reluctant to allow their kids out of adult supervision, this includes travel to and from school. None of this should be a surprise. And plenty of it has already been discussed in the previous posts.

Nobody here is suggesting MHLs are the only thing that is working against cycling in this country. It simply is one of the many things that is. Personally I don't think the influences that less kids cycling on has had. In the 80s kids cycled regularly, not many people could justify harassing kids riding bikes. Now lycra clad men cycle and plenty of people can readily justify hating cyclists.

[simonn]

In the 80s kids cycled regularly, not many people could justify harassing kids riding bikes. Now lycra clad men cycle and plenty of people can readily justify hating cyclists.

In the 80s kids swam in ungated/fenced pools while their parents got pissed inside, generally filling the air with cancer causing smoke. In the 80s you could fit 6 kids on the non-seatbelted back seat, 2 in the front seat one in each of the driver-free seat wells and 2 or 3 in the boot of a car. Maybe one standing over the gear stick too who would have to move when a change was needed. Might have to modify the number if there was a baby in a bassinet free floating on the backseat. There were also about half the amount of cars on the road and more local shops/places to actually cycle too, which generally did not involve dealing with multilane busy roads etc etc I know all this because I was a kid for all of the 80s.

Other than perhaps having more local shops/places to ride to, none of the above are good things IMHO.

Also IMHO, MHLs did have an impact, but are far more of a symptom than a cause.

[martinjs]

Pointless really, but hey, seems many forgot the growth in the 2 car families and the mass up take of cars as a reason for cycling taking a drastic drop in numbers.
60 and 70's was a big change in Australia, 40's and 50's most people commuted to work on bikes, 60's still mostly single car house holds and cars were not cheap the 70's and early 80's was the rise of not only the 2 car families but the cool era for young people to get cars ASAP.

Feel free to ignore all these points! I know you will!

[yugyug]

Pointless really, but hey, seems many forgot the growth in the 2 car families and the mass up take of cars as a reason for cycling taking a drastic drop in numbers.
60 and 70's was a big change in Australia, 40's and 50's most people commuted to work on bikes, 60's still mostly single car house holds and cars were not cheap the 70's and early 80's was the rise of not only the 2 car families but the cool era for young people to get cars ASAP.

Feel free to ignore all these points! I know you will!

I mentioned these contributory causes in my last post, which human909 acknowledged.
Your last comment is a over the top.

[yugyug]

In the 80s kids cycled regularly, not many people could justify harassing kids riding bikes. Now lycra clad men cycle and plenty of people can readily justify hating cyclists.

In the 80s kids swam in ungated/fenced pools while their parents got pissed inside, generally filling the air with cancer causing smoke. In the 80s you could fit 6 kids on the non-seatbelted back seat, 2 in the front seat one in each of the driver-free seat wells and 2 or 3 in the boot of a car. Maybe one standing over the gear stick too who would have to move when a change was needed. Might have to modify the number if there was a baby in a bassinet free floating on the backseat. There were also about half the amount of cars on the road and more local shops/places to actually cycle too, which generally did not involve dealing with multilane busy roads etc etc I know all this because I was a kid for all of the 80s.

Other than perhaps having more local shops/places to ride to, none of the above are good things IMHO.

Also IMHO, MHLs did have an impact, but are far more of a symptom than a cause.

Just because a number effective safety measures were implemented in the 80s it does not follow that the MHL was likewise effective. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it clearly was.

You are right I think in saying the MHL was a symptom of the period, in that Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, among other institutions, campaigned for it following on from similar campaigns for seatbelts and motorcycles helmets, ignoring the differences and assuming it would likewise be successful. But it is still a cause of decreased riding as well, because the increased concern for safety of the period was embodied by helmets and the MHL so that riding became to be perceived to be dangerous.

If I can extend that medical analogy, it's a bit like how explosive diarrhea is a symptom of cholera, but also helps spread the cholera bacterium.

[human909]

Yep. Lots of stuff has happened since the 80s. Big changes across the world. The internet happened too...

However very few other countries have followed Australia's example of MHLs. Could it be that it is because it was a poor decision. Or just one that is so incredibly clever that other countries still haven't worked it out yet?

And despite over two decades there is no evidence that it has resulted in safer outcomes for Australian cyclists.

[fat and old]

Or just one that is so incredibly clever .....

Got it one mate. We ARE a clever country. Especially on the medical front. And quite skilled at sport given our population count.

I LOVE being an Australian, in Australia

You can disagree of course, and I'll still love you though, cos you're an Aussie too

[yugyug]

Or just one that is so incredibly clever .....

Got it one mate. We ARE a clever country. Especially on the medical front.

Our medical innovation tends to go through quite a lot of research and peer review before being placed on the market.

I'll be generous and say that Australia may have even had its own helmet innovation in the design of Stackhat, but we are talking about the MHL, not the design of helmets. Australia has less acknowledgement of being a world leader in legislative innovation.

It remains that after 25 years no other country other than New Zealand and the UAE have adopted a MHL. Here is the UK's Department of Transport's most recent slapdown:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48526" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jasonc]

Here is the UK's Department of Transport's most recent slapdown:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48526" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so they wanted 100k of signatures and got 14k

[yugyug]

Here is the UK's Department of Transport's most recent slapdown:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/48526" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so they wanted 100k of signatures and got 14k

To be fair, missing punctuation tends to put people off.

[greyhoundtom]

A well researched and logical response by the UK Government in regard to that petition to introduce a MHL, and something that should be read by our politicians from both sides of the fence. Because it not only sets out a clear and valid argument against the MHL, but also details various endeavors to be undertaken to improve bicycle riding safety.

(Edited to improve punctuation)

[g-boaf]

That's a period of 31 years. The Victorian example was over 16 years. The US doesn't have MHL's. What am I to infer from this?

You could infer lots of things. I think it is clear to most, that parents these days are increasingly reluctant to allow their kids out of adult supervision, this includes travel to and from school. None of this should be a surprise. And plenty of it has already been discussed in the previous posts.

Nobody here is suggesting MHLs are the only thing that is working against cycling in this country. It simply is one of the many things that is. Personally I don't think the influences that less kids cycling on has had. In the 80s kids cycled regularly, not many people could justify harassing kids riding bikes. Now lycra clad men cycle and plenty of people can readily justify hating cyclists.

So us people who ride as a sport should stop riding because we make people hate bike riders? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but kids still ride about. Not in main roads but certainly on back roads. I had a few the other week wanting to race me up a hill and have a look at my bike.

They were youngsters so why not. Gives us a good name, have a laugh, might encourage them into the sport as well, or at least to continue riding bikes.

Except until the Nissan GT-R came along, and then they went into meltdown over that - amusing the family inside it. Talk about fickle!

The worst problem today is that the population is much bigger. The infrastructure to support that many people hasn't been built and existing roads are often jammed. That's what gets people frustrated. Some fit guy or lady wearing activity specific clothing doesn't make a difference. Granny could be riding a bike in front of them and they'd snap.

[human909]

So us people who ride as a sport should stop riding because we make people hate bike riders?

I didn't say that. But surely you have to admit that a stereotype of middle aged lawyers and bankers riding in Lycra is much easier to hate than the stereotype of a child on his or her way to school.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but kids still ride about.

I didn't say that kids don't ride. But are you seriously doubting the demographic change of cyclists in the last two decades?

The worst problem today is that the population is much bigger.

Having plenty of people packed into a small space doesn't hold back the Netherlands from happy cycling.

[warthog1]

Interestingly yugyug. I could show the opposite pictures for Melbourne University of the last decade and a half. Helmets or no helmets, the explosion of cycling in Melbourne's inner north is remarkable and joyous. A multitude of factors have made this happen but like I have said before Melbourne's inner north is the brightest beacon in Australia for commuter cycling. The tipping point has been that cycling is now simply the thing to do for those living in this area. People move in and see everybody else doing it so they do it to. Plus it simply makes sense because traffic is terrible and destinations are generally close by.

I was talking to my brother in law on the weekend, who is not a cyclist, about cycling and he had noticed an increase in cycling in and around the city.
He postulated that apartment living and no car parking facilities combined with high parking costs in Melb had made car use less acceptable. Made sense to me.

[human909]

I was talking to my brother in law on the weekend, who is not a cyclist, about cycling and he had noticed an increase in cycling in and around the city.
He postulated that apartment living and no car parking facilities combined with high parking costs in Melb had made car use less acceptable. Made sense to me.

Having lived and cycled in this area for a decade I would suggest that apartment growth has had had minimal influence. Most apartments do have car parking facilities. Apartments have been far more common in south of the CBD yet the cycling is concentrated north. Also the vast majority of residents in the dense cycling area are in houses. And in my observation apartment residents are LESS likely to cycle.

Big influences are the young crowd, the flat landscape, good zoning, density, great work by councils...

[yugyug]

And in my observation apartment residents are LESS likely to cycle.

It's hard to get bikes inside small apartments and it's amazing how commonly apartment buildings don't have bike racks in the car park. I have quite a few friends who don't have them and we only just got bike racks put in at my rental apartment last year. Within a day of going in they were full.

Conversely my parents apartment complex has three or four very large secure bike cages, but their building is quite new.