Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[weldin_mike_27]

Riding bikes to school has absolutely nothing to do with mandatory helmet laws. What !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! came up with that Idea. Utter trollop.

[simonn]

However very few other countries have followed Australia's example of MHLs.

Yet, excluding a handful of European countries (which invested heavily in cycling infrastructure and PT), still had a similar drop in the number of kids cycling to school.

my observation apartment residents are LESS likely to cycle.

The irony of cycling, particularly in inner city areas is that you need a secure place to leave a bike (e.g. a LUG) more than you need a secure place to leave a car. Source - live in an apartment with a massive LUG, look{ed,ing} at buying a house and LUG, shed or space for shed is of primary concern - which it would not be so much if I did not ride.

EDIT: and we only bought bike after moving to said apartment. Our previous apartment had no storage to store then and did not want to leave locked on street due to theft.

[g-boaf]

Having plenty of people packed into a small space doesn't hold back the Netherlands from happy cycling.

Congestion and inadequate infrastructure for cars is what I referred to. That's what makes drivers so angry. That they are stuck in endless traffic jams. And that aggressiveness deters new people from taking up riding, except for maybe putting the bike on the car and driving to the local park to ride, or the local cycleway. I see it quite a bit at Parramatta Park and even the M7 Cycleway, though it is more so in Parramatta Park.

However very few other countries have followed Australia's example of MHLs.

Yet, excluding a handful of European countries (which invested heavily in cycling infrastructure and PT), still had a similar drop in the number of kids cycling to school.

my observation apartment residents are LESS likely to cycle.

The irony of cycling, particularly in inner city areas is that you need a secure place to leave a bike (e.g. a LUG) more than you need a secure place to leave a car. Source - live in an apartment with a massive LUG, look{ed,ing} at buying a house and LUG, shed or space for shed is of primary concern - which it would not be so much if I did not ride.

EDIT: and we only bought bike after moving to said apartment. Our previous apartment had no storage to store then and did not want to leave locked on street due to theft.

Could you keep the bike inside the apartment, if you keep it very clean? I realise there is an issue with keeping it maintained. Perhaps put some covers down over the floor or carpet where you keep the bike.

[Mulger bill]

Riding bikes to school has absolutely nothing to do with mandatory helmet laws. What !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! came up with that Idea. Utter trollop.

Enjoy your short holiday and please reread the forum rules on your return.

Shaun

[warthog1]

I was talking to my brother in law on the weekend, who is not a cyclist, about cycling and he had noticed an increase in cycling in and around the city.
He postulated that apartment living and no car parking facilities combined with high parking costs in Melb had made car use less acceptable. Made sense to me.

Having lived and cycled in this area for a decade I would suggest that apartment growth has had had minimal influence. Most apartments do have car parking facilities. Apartments have been far more common in south of the CBD yet the cycling is concentrated north. Also the vast majority of residents in the dense cycling area are in houses. And in my observation apartment residents are LESS likely to cycle.

Big influences are the young crowd, the flat landscape, good zoning, density, great work by councils...

I don't know the area that well. My other brother inlaw lives in North Fitzroy and there seems to be plenty of bikes around that way.
It makes sense to ride a bike if it's going to cost you $20 a day to park your car in the city if that's where you work, I reckon that would have some impact, as would crowded, expensive and under funded public transport.
Car ownership is a significant expense and with housing costs far outstripping wage increases in the last decade and a half, it is something to be cut if savings are to be made.
I guess those high rise apartment dwellers must walk?
Good work by those councils, those areas have a less conservative political demographic too I believe?

[simonn]

Could you keep the bike inside the apartment, if you keep it very clean? I realise there is an issue with keeping it maintained. Perhaps put some covers down over the floor or carpet where you keep the bike.

Not if you need both bedrooms, we do as we have a kid (but then we have a large LUG, so NP). I was simply explaining why it is possible that apartment/unit dwellers use bikes less than house dwellers.

Most units built from mid 90's onwards come with no parking, a car space or a garage which you can see into. The latter two are not secure enough for bikes, except maybe pub junkers (have friends who had ~$20-30k worth of bikes stolen from a garage you could see into, all but one recovered though).

The only people I know who keep bikes in apartments do not have kids and the second room is the bike room. There is the balcony, but that is not secure either. Thieves can abseil onto balconies (really, a non-cyclist friend's unit in Manly was broken into like this).

Insurance usually only includes garage not locked in parking spots. You can get things like the Bike Box, but then you have to deal with body corporate which may say no. Even if they say yes, not sure where insurance would stand on this.

[simonn]

Car ownership is a significant expense and with housing costs far outstripping wage increases in the last decade and a half, it is something to be cut if savings are to be made.

Or, move to an outer-suburb where car ownership is necessary, but is (A LOT) cheaper than the additional mortgage living closer in. IOW, more urban sprawl.

[human909]

Could you keep the bike inside the apartment, if you keep it very clean? I realise there is an issue with keeping it maintained. Perhaps put some covers down over the floor or carpet where you keep the bike.

Some people do this. It doesn't help though that many apartments have body corporate rules banning bikes indoors. That said most people ignore that.

Most units built from mid 90's onwards come with no parking, a car space or a garage which you can see into. The latter two are not secure enough for bikes, except maybe pub junkers (have friends who had ~$20-30k worth of bikes stolen from a garage you could see into, all but one recovered though).

Most units in the last decade in the area being discussed do have parking. That said the majority of bikes in such areas LESS than $1000. The fear of theft isn't as great. (My bikes are unlocked in my fenced and often unlocked front yard.)

The only people I know who keep bikes in apartments do not have kids and the second room is the bike room. There is the balcony, but that is not secure either. Thieves can abseil onto balconies (really, a non-cyclist friend's unit in Manly was broken into like this).

I would suggest that there is greater chance of winning the lottery than having stuff stolen by somebody abseiling!! (I say as someone who has had done hundreds of abseils.) Climbing is a bigger risk though, I've 'broken' into my neighbors apartment twice by doing so and my previous house a few times too. (All legit, when silly people lock themselves out.)

I don't know the area that well. My other brother inlaw lives in North Fitzroy and there seems to be plenty of bikes around that way.

Yep. North Fitzroy has some of the highest bike use in the country. (Probably the second highest of all suburbs.)

Good work by those councils, those areas have a less conservative political demographic too I believe?

Absolutely. Again leading the country.

[yugyug]

Our cousins across the Tasman sea show real class in the way they enforce their MHL:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6524796 ... met-arrest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some of the comments in the article intrigue me. Cyclists saying that weren't aware the MHL applied on walkways etc... is that because difference rules apply in different areas or because the law is so rarely enforced that many don't actually what it is?

[il padrone]

My observations over the past 4 weeks cycling in NZ has been that the whole helmet-wearing thing there is observed in a much more laissez-faire manner than here in Melbourne. It was not unusual to see adults riding about lidless.

I was down in New Plymouth on Sunday and walked the coastal walkway. It is a huge wide shared promenade. You'd be more worried about a tsunami there than the risks of bike falls and head injuries




Damn-fool police victim-harassment!!

[Duck!]

Riding bikes to school has absolutely nothing to do with mandatory helmet laws. What !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! came up with that Idea. Utter trollop.

The relationship now is only secondary due to magic hat wearing being so entrenched (not one person at school now was alive when MHL was introduced), but in the early 90s when MHL was introduced, the cycling rate plummeted - I know because I was at school at that time (although I never rode, because school was in easy walking distance), and cages that were once full became almost empty overnight. The vicious spin-off resulting from that drop was the increase in car traffic around schools, causing parents to dismiss cycling as "too dangerous", a misconception perpetuated by the requirement to wear a magic hat, thus keeping the cycling rate low, and at the same time completely ignoring where the real danger actually lies.

[il padrone]

The relationship now is only secondary due to magic hat wearing being so entrenched (not one person at school now was alive when MHL was introduced), but in the early 90s when MHL was introduced, the cycling rate plummeted - I know because I was at school at that time (although I never rode, because school was in easy walking distance), and cages that were once full became almost empty overnight. The vicious spin-off resulting from that drop was the increase in car traffic around schools, causing parents to dismiss cycling as "too dangerous", a misconception perpetuated by the requirement to wear a magic hat, thus keeping the cycling rate low, and at the same time completely ignoring where the real danger actually lies.

I can also verify this as I was teaching at a typical suburban high school, which had two bike rack cages that held typically ~200-300 bikes. I did the count, and kept a check on numbers. 3 months after July 1990 the numbers had fallen to just 19, and they stayed that way for at least 4-5 years, eventually building back to about 50-80 bikes but never returning to anything remotely near the prior levels.

Teenage school cycling levels fell by as much as 90%. The helmet rule was the sole reason.

[mikesbytes]

A long time ago I lived in New Plymouth. Where have they built that promenade? Wasn't there when I was there

[human909]

More research telling us what should be quite clear. MHL and bikeshare doesn't work!

http://api.ning.com/files/Wh6b0fkgU12dZ ... 38main.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However when CARRSQ addressed the research, the suddenly helmets are all but forgotten.

[g-boaf]

Riding bikes to school has absolutely nothing to do with mandatory helmet laws. What !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! came up with that Idea. Utter trollop.

The relationship now is only secondary due to magic hat wearing being so entrenched (not one person at school now was alive when MHL was introduced), but in the early 90s when MHL was introduced, the cycling rate plummeted - I know because I was at school at that time (although I never rode, because school was in easy walking distance), and cages that were once full became almost empty overnight. The vicious spin-off resulting from that drop was the increase in car traffic around schools, causing parents to dismiss cycling as "too dangerous", a misconception perpetuated by the requirement to wear a magic hat, thus keeping the cycling rate low, and at the same time completely ignoring where the real danger actually lies.

Hang on a moment there... I was at school in the 90s too. And in the 80s and early 90s, I can remember nobody riding bicycles to the schools I went to at all, helmet or no helmet. There were not even any bicycle cages either. It was kids being driven to school, catching a bus or walking. Riding in the area seemed to only pick up later on once someone actually built some cycleways, but by that time, the helmet laws were in place. In this area, traffic has always been pretty heavy.

As for teenagers not riding due to helmets, a lot of them just don't care about riding in general, helmet or no helmet. The only way to get around it is to get encourage them into riding when they are young. Easier said than done. But sometimes when I'm out riding I do get kids wanting to have a look at my bike, or their parents asking questions. Maybe there is a chance to get the next generation away from the doom of ill-health and car-dependance.

Could you keep the bike inside the apartment, if you keep it very clean? I realise there is an issue with keeping it maintained. Perhaps put some covers down over the floor or carpet where you keep the bike.

Some people do this. It doesn't help though that many apartments have body corporate rules banning bikes indoors. That said most people ignore that.

I'd prefer to have a $10,000 bicycle in the living room taking pride of place instead of some dreary flat-screen television showing re-runs of old sitcoms or the latest trashy reality TV show. Body-corporate rules be damned. If I were evil, I'd have something like a computrainer setup in the living room and put a projector somewhere on a table and have a screen setup there for it. And get a hulking big industrial fan for cooling.

[human909]

Hang on a moment there... I was at school in the 90s too. And in the 80s and early 90s, I can remember nobody riding bicycles to the schools I went to at all, helmet or no helmet.

I think it does depend on what and where you went to school. My primary school was easily in walking/riding distance but because of younger siblings being picked up I never rode but others did. I think I walked sometimes. I then went to school to a more fancy catholic school that I had to take a couple of buses to, I can't remember many people riding. But again, this was early primary school. On the weekends every second kid in the neighborhood was out on their BMX's without helmets. Riding for me was second nature. Mum later got us stackhats, we were to keen to wear them. I later went to school in Amsterdam. I rode with no helmet.

My Grandma always rode her bike, she always was a fit and independent woman. She stopped once helmets were forced upon people, how could she keep her hair presentable with that big thing on her head?

[fat and old]

Primary school from 1970 to '76. Local school, quiet area in Preston. 3 or 4 kids rode to school out of app. 400. I was one . 90% + walked. A few were driven because they were rich and could afford a second car ( something constantly overlooked in this debate). Secondary school '77 to '82. School again in Preston, but in an area surrounded on 3 sides by major roads. Cannot remember more than 5 bikes at any time. School population drawn from a large area ( Epping to Northcote and as far west as Coburg). Again 90%+ walked/public transport with a few being driven. From Form 5 a few of us drove (I rode a M/C...... Seriously why would I ride a pushy in Form 5 when I can be a lair? )

Different stories everywhere, you can't draw conclusions from a few examples

[Drizt]

What chance (over what time frame?) do you give for mhl to be repealed? Lots of whining over something that won't change.....

[Duck!]

There's better chance of The Authorities considering a change if there's enough pressure to make them think about it. If the masses just shut up about it, The Authorities will think it's accepted as being reasonable, so there will be even less inclination for them to consider a repeal.

[il padrone]

A long time ago I lived in New Plymouth. Where have they built that promenade? Wasn't there when I was there

It runs from near the port, up past town and out to Fitzroy Reserve where we walked to, and even further on to a river beyond that. Nicely set up with plenty of space for pedestrians and cyclists to share it.

[il padrone]

What chance (over what time frame?) do you give for mhl to be repealed? Lots of whining over something that won't change.....

Saying/doing nothing will definitely work then



Nobidy said anything about it throughout the 90s and look where that got us.

[Drizt]

Arguing on a forum accomplishes what exactly?

[Drizt]

Who here is actively doing something that is reaching the decision makers?

[il padrone]

Awareness of a different reality. A desire for change amongst those on the forum. Publicity, and even establishment, of groups like Freestyle Cyclists. Don't talk and nobody thinks about the issue. Pressure for change is already in train. The moves and lobbying for change in Qld and elsewhere are a sign of a groundswell.

Sure there needs to be much more done in actual lobbying, publicity on a wider scale, even direct public disobedience. Nick Dow and Sue Abbott have marched that road. Hopefully Freestyle Cyclists can take the baton further - if they do I will be one to join them.

[trailgumby]

I'm hoping that people are not inferring that the reduction in children riding pushbikes to / from schools is due to MHL??? I would suggest that there are factors, other than having to wear a helmet, which have contributed to the lessening of this activity...

cheers

No need to infer, it is a fact. Cycling amongst kids dropped 75% in NZ immediately after the introduction of MHLs there. Walking to school, on the other hand, changed not much at all.