NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby trailgumby » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:44 pm

The Fixer wrote:Populist, anti-cyclist BS.
I had an interesting conversation n the weekend. A fellow I struck up a conversation with as we were riding Long Trail in Ku Ring Gai NP on our mountain bIkes. Besides being an enormously talented rider (Swedish national world cup XC skier in his late teens, retired at 21 as he didn't want to get involved in blood doping), he was among other things a certified snake wrangler and an epidemiologist at a nearby major hospital.

My ears pricked up at the last comment. For those who don;t know, epidemiologists look at health outcomes from treatment regimes and government policy at the population-wide level.

So I asked him what he thought of our helmet compulsion laws, given his professional focus on population-wide outcomes

"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."


Unethical. A very strong term to use in this context.

And now we have Duncan the Bumpkin increasing fines for non-compliance by 350% Populist anii-cycling BS indeed.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:42 pm

Truck drivers get higher fines that motorists for the same offense, presumably because trucks present a greater danger to others than motor vehicles. How do the new fines compare with the new fines for motorists and truck drivers?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:47 pm

@yugyug I disagree with your comments

I understand that you want Bicycle NSW to tackle MHL but this is not what the laws announced today were about or the objective of any of the organisations involved. Simply looking at this forum alone and the amount of problems a simple discussion among fellow cyclists causes, the upsets and offence, then it should be very clear that if a major cycling organisation were to add this topic as their top agenda then the same would happen within the organisation and in public. While it is a valid discussion (no argument), the state based cycling advocacy groups are tackling cycling topics which they believe they can achieve more progress - and I agree that currently in Australia, that this is necessary.

MHL can be discussed further in the dedicated MHL thread.


In the context of what has been achieved, looking at the record of Duncan Gay, his public comments and the lack of transparency - it could have discriminated far more against cyclists. With the record of the transport minister, introducing the minimum safe passing distance is significant and a very important step forward for cycling safety in New South Wales.



@mikesbytes, I understand that the fines (e.g. red light) are now the same as for motorists. Have not checked truck driver fines.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:49 pm

Good to see Bicycle Network finally grow some (small) cojones.
In a move that appears designed to cloak Mr Gay’s harsh measures, the government is planning to simultaneously introduce a trial fixed distance passing law. What's worrying is that under the new fixed distance passing law penalties for driving too close to a rider look set to fall to a lower penalty than under the current safe passing distance law. Surely a bike rider's well being is worth more.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Eleri » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:02 pm

il padrone wrote:Good to see Bicycle Network finally grow some (small) cojones.
In a move that appears designed to cloak Mr Gay’s harsh measures, the government is planning to simultaneously introduce a trial fixed distance passing law. What's worrying is that under the new fixed distance passing law penalties for driving too close to a rider look set to fall to a lower penalty than under the current safe passing distance law. Surely a bike rider's well being is worth more.
What have testicles to do with public policy?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Bunged Knee » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:13 pm

AUbicycles wrote: @mikesbytes, I understand that the fines (e.g. red light) are now the same as for motorists. Have not checked truck driver fines.
Had checked the truck driver fines in NSW and it`s not there. So it will be same as motorists of $425 and 3 demerit points.
ID please? What ID? My seat tube ID is 27.2mm or 31.6mm depending on what bikes I ride today.thanks...

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:19 pm

AUbicycles wrote:@mikesbytes, I understand that the fines (e.g. red light) are now the same as for motorists. Have not checked truck driver fines.
I totally disagree to cycling fines being the same as motorist fines, the risk it other road users and pedrestians is far greater from a motorist not obeying a road rule to a cyclist not obeying the same road rule.

[Edit]If it is considered that the overall risk is the same for a motorist to a cyclist then it must be same for a truck driver and therefor motorist fines should be increased to match truck drivers[/edit]

I realise I am preaching to the converted, who should I communicate my disapproval to? My local MP?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:25 pm

Duncan Gay will be relieved if this causes advocacy groups to have a go at one another instead of having the groups and their members targeting him and his department.


On a personal note, the increase in fines don't affect me as a bike rider as I stop at red, ride with a helmet. But it opens up problems such as consistency e.g. comparison of fines for pedestrians and other minority road uses as well as the unreasonable massive price hike. An ID is an issue if it is skewed by law enforcement as a reason to stop a rider (as noted in a previous comment). So they could indirectly affect me.


It is a case of sweet and sour.



Who should we voice our disapproval to? To bike organisations (e.g. BNSW) and to local area MP, the transport minister and the premier.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:39 pm

AUbicycles wrote:On a personal note, the increase in fines don't affect me as a bike rider as I stop at red, ride with a helmet.
"First they came for the yobbo cyclists....."
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:50 pm

Some groups who would be first in line, and with a fine increase I imagine that the Police will also specifically target cyclists (though there is a 12 month grace period for some fines):

- Tourists
- Students
- Teens
- Yahoo's
- Some Seniors
- Hot head road cyclists

There could be more, this is from my observations on the Northern Beaches in Sydney.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:19 am

Perhaps like red light cameras, the police will target black spots - the intersections where helmet less cyclists are being killed by riding through red lights.

What most annoys me about this is that it doesn't include any analysis of the factors that actually kill cyclists, which largely involve the behaviour of the nut behind the steering wheel.

Personally I will be reporting every light that is not triggered by my bike, especially those on CBD bike paths, and would encourage you to do the same.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby TheShadow » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:18 am

They can have all their fines, and their helmets. I can do all that. But being forced to carry your driver's licence? FFS. Time to take a good look at yourselves I'm pretty sure that is not a requirement for a QLD driver/motorcyclist with an open licence...you have to be able to present it at a police station within 24 hours or so if requested though.

I've been fined for not wearing helmets and several other minor things over the years, They didn't need ID to do it. Although the last time they tried to get me for rolling a stop sign in a suburban back street at 8am on a Sunday, they did ask for an EFTPOS card - WHICH i DON'T EVEN CARRY... For decades I've gone out with nothing more than a spare tube ,a CO2 bottle and maybe $5 cash in my pocket. Didn't even used to carry a phone. Now you have to carry your DL??....which you do not even require to RIDE a bicycle. And some people will NOT have a DL...and will struggle to get other photo ID appropriate. I'm sorry, but NO. Just, NO.

And now here's a little trailer from the boxing day Hollywood release.....Jack-booted police officer stand outside railway station: " Papiers, bitte. Papiers......HALT!!!! (*sound of 9mm machine pistol cocking*)......meanwhile Steve McQueen has knocked an MP off his BMW boxer and flees for Swiss border. (removing his helmet ) :lol: See, he woulda made it if he'd used a bicycle like the Aussie soldier did. :wink:

Guys, the border is only 1,000km to the north. You can make it!

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sobmal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:44 am

Damn… Pulling some mad skids through a red light while not wearing a helmet and getting hit by a car just got kinda expensive!!

Riding dangerously $425
Running a red light $425
Not a wearing helmet $319
Holding onto a moving vehicle $319

Brought to us by the same nanna state enforcers that signed off on the Stoner Sloth campaign.. I wonder if the NSW Govco can sign up the same agency that did the Sloth work to promote the changes/new laws?

Jokes aside; the new safe passing laws are probably worth the further nazi-esque fines and regulations.. your papers please.. indeed!
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:57 am

il padrone wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:On a personal note, the increase in fines don't affect me as a bike rider as I stop at red, ride with a helmet.
"First they came for the yobbo cyclists....."
Beat me to it :mrgreen:
Once this sorta garbage is legislated it usually comes with a rider that allows massive expansion via regulation...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby yugyug » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:25 am

AUbicycles wrote:@yugyug I disagree with your comments

I understand that you want Bicycle NSW to tackle MHL but this is not what the laws announced today were about or the objective of any of the organisations involved. Simply looking at this forum alone and the amount of problems a simple discussion among fellow cyclists causes, the upsets and offence, then it should be very clear that if a major cycling organisation were to add this topic as their top agenda then the same would happen within the organisation and in public. While it is a valid discussion (no argument), the state based cycling advocacy groups are tackling cycling topics which they believe they can achieve more progress - and I agree that currently in Australia, that this is necessary.
In this context, what BNSW (and BNV and whichever other bicycle advocacy groups were present at the roundtable) have done, is allowed the MHL to be strengthened by inaction. As you say, I might've tolerated BNSW having a more neutral position on MHL, but this is not a neutral position - by supporting the fine increases and disingenuously claiming it 'only' affects %30 of cyclists, they have further strengthened the disincentive that MHL presents to potential cyclists and further marginalised cycling as a healthy activity and mode of transport. This is tremendously shortsighted, unethical and just plain dumb behaviour for a bicycle advocacy group.

I had hoped that while the Senate Inquiry on MHL was ongoing that there would be little backward movement in MHL and its enforcement. This legislation incentivises enforcement.

With it, there is less hope that the MHL may go the way of the 'no pants allowed for woman' law in Paris, repealed in 2013 but not enforced for decades.

Funnily enough, BN(Victoria) has some rather strong words to say in the Guardian yesterday. I checked out their site and here is their whole statement:
In a move that smacks of totalitarianism—and demonstrates contempt for people who ride bikes—NSW Roads Minister Duncan Gay will introduce next March compulsory photo ID for bike riders in the State.

This oppressive step is a new low for the treatment of bike riders in NSW, who have been under the heel since the ascent of Mr Gay as Roads Minister.

Everyday people who are riding bikes for health, employment, education or just plain enjoyment, are being characterised as a menace to society—people who require surveillance, supervision and control.

Bicycle Network condemns this initiative in the strongest terms and will work to prevent its introduction.

Compulsory photo ID for bike riders is something that few people would have expected to be introduced anywhere in the world in 2015, least of all a supposed modern democracy like NSW. Now NSW is planning to stand alone as the only place in the world with compulsory ID for riders.

What’s next? Compulsory ID for pedestrians?

Mr Gay has also announced, just days before Christmas when governments hope to bury unpopular news, a raft of massive increases in fines affecting bike riders.

These include:

Not a wearing helmet (from $71 to $319)
Running a red light (from $71 to $425)
Riding dangerously (from $71 to $425)
Holding onto a moving vehicle (from $71 to $319)
Not stopping at children’s/pedestrian crossing ($71 to $425).
Increases of this magnitude are unheard of. Imagine the outrage if fines for motorists jumped 500 percent.

In a move that appears designed to cloak Mr Gay’s harsh measures, the government is planning to simultaneously introduce a trial fixed distance passing law. What's worrying is that under the new fixed distance passing law penalties for driving too close to a rider look set to fall to a lower penalty than under the current safe passing distance law. Surely a bike rider's well being is worth more.

And to cap it off, NSW will also ask bike riders to give a metre to walkers on shared paths. No mention though of how much space riders have to give a dog!

Bicycle Network CEO, Craig Richards, said today that the announcements could set bike riding back decades in NSW.

“Bike riding has been growing rapidly around Australia because it appeals as a healthy activity that everybody can participate in regardless of age or status.

“But now you need the official stamp of government approval—you can't leave the house without your officially mandated, government issued ID card.

“In a time where we need greater cooperation from all road users, these proposals will result in bike riders being seen as a fringe group that needs special rules to keep them in check."
BN(V)'s comments are hypocritical because they supported huge increases in their own state, and they don't support passing laws so I can see why their framed their criticism in that regard, but at least they are using the appropriate kind of language to describe the ID requirement and fine increases in general. Advocacy has a lot to do with words and presence in the media. In this case, surprisingly, BN have made a better showing than BNSW, who I would say have just rolled over.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby bychosis » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:38 am

Boognoss wrote:My thoughts on this are that the 1-1.5 metre rule is great.

All of the rest are created by a mentally-challenged dinosaur politician that is appeasing the bogan-motorist hordes. Hi Alan Jones!! I'll continue riding the way I always do (mostly within the law - always with helmet, regularly not dying on busy peak roads by using the footpath, etc).

As long as my license or ID isn't required to be stuck to my rear-end and enlarged I should be OK ;).
This. I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same. I usually take my phone with me (for Strava!) and on it is a photo of my licence. I have a bad habit of leaving my wallet in my locker at work, then driving work vehicles without ID.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Howzat » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:10 am

bychosis wrote:I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same.
I think that is likely to change quickly. Riding a bike without ID will be a quick $316, so the police will stop you just to check that. They don't need to see people doing anything wrong to stop them - riding a bike will be enough.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby JPB » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:22 am

bychosis wrote:
Boognoss wrote:My thoughts on this are that the 1-1.5 metre rule is great.

All of the rest are created by a mentally-challenged dinosaur politician that is appeasing the bogan-motorist hordes. Hi Alan Jones!! I'll continue riding the way I always do (mostly within the law - always with helmet, regularly not dying on busy peak roads by using the footpath, etc).

As long as my license or ID isn't required to be stuck to my rear-end and enlarged I should be OK ;).
This. I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same. I usually take my phone with me (for Strava!) and on it is a photo of my licence. I have a bad habit of leaving my wallet in my locker at work, then driving work vehicles without ID.
Good idea about the photo of the license.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby GAV!N » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:30 am

My 2c...

The 1/1.5m law is great. But. As mentioned it will be difficult to Police. Why? For one, NSW Police will generally not issue an infringement for a NON COLLISSION incident they DID NOT WITNESS. I.e. They do not go off witnesses to issue infringement notices. There are a number of good reasons for this I won't go in to right now unless someone really wants me to. The only exception I can really see is if the complaint is backed up by very good evidence such as a Fly6/Garmin Virb camera clearly showing the passing. In my opinion this law is essentially just creating a strict liability, that if a motorist hits a cyclist when passing, it IS the motorists fault, as they clearly weren't adhering to this law.

On the substantial increase in fines. It is ridiculous. But. There are so many anti-lycra motorists out there screaming for blood. Demanding cyclists are more accountable. If this increase at least shows the cyclists are just as accountable, and therefore increases our existence on the road, then that's fine by me. Follow the road rules and it won't affect you.

Carrying ID? Again, I think it's ridiculous, and as mentioned, therefore shouldn't EVERYONE HAVE TO CARRY ID just in case they commit an offence or become involved in an accident? Yes, it's stupid. But. Again, if it appeases the anti-lycra demographic out there, then I'm for it. It's better than having f***ing registration on bikes!

I do however have very strong doubts that these measures will in any way do anything to increase the respect of the anti-lycra motorist towards cyclists.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby velonaut » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:32 am

Well every single one of those changes is utterly idiotic*, and I'm very glad I don't live in that state. Is Victoria going to have to start accepting NSW cyclists as refugees?

*Yes, including the passing rules, as they encourage motorists to tailgate rather than overtake, which is far more dangerous than passing with less than a meter space.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:34 am

The thing with all these new rules is that it hasn't really changed the status quo of cycling on the road. It does not solve the angst of motorists against cyclists. All this time and money spent and no one is actually better off but the government. I can only hope police are reasonable in their enforcement of these rules (outside of blitz's which will definitely ramp up).

I'd really love to see more cyclists on the road clogging up the road to thumb it up to Duncan but with all this negative press I don't see this happening. Either way Dunc has won this battle.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:37 am

find_bruce wrote:Perhaps like red light cameras, the police will target black spots - the intersections where helmet less cyclists are being killed by riding through red lights.
Yes, I reckon that a statistical analysis will find very few cyclists (~=0) killed when helmetless and riding through a red light at an intersection. The most severe deaths are being caused by....... close-shaving motorists, or just the DNFL motorists.


Now I wonder what rules could resolve those collisions ???
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:50 am

GAV!N wrote:On the substantial increase in fines. It is ridiculous. But. There are so many anti-lycra motorists out there screaming for blood. Demanding cyclists are more accountable. If this increase at least shows the cyclists are just as accountable, and therefore increases our existence on the road, then that's fine by me. Follow the road rules and it won't affect you.
Theses fines are an inequitable persecution upon the most vulnerable road-users for a range of 'non-risks' to others. They exist here in Victoria as well, but may not be quite as high (??) and continue to be inequitable here. Severity of punishments should always reflect the severity of the risk of harm posed to society - a cyclist failing to wear a helmet, or passing through a red light is, in no way a comparable risk as a B-double driver going through a red light, yet it is going to be fined as the same.
GAV!N wrote:Carrying ID? Again, I think it's ridiculous, and as mentioned, therefore shouldn't EVERYONE HAVE TO CARRY ID just in case they commit an offence or become involved in an accident? Yes, it's stupid. But. Again, if it appeases the anti-lycra demographic out there, then I'm for it. It's better than having f***ing registration on bikes!

I do however have very strong doubts that these measures will in any way do anything to increase the respect of the anti-lycra motorist towards cyclists.
Yes, you have hit the nail on the head here.

:x
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:57 am

il padrone wrote:
find_bruce wrote: Yes, I reckon that a statistical analysis will find very few cyclists (~=0) killed when helmetless and riding through a red light at an intersection.
Existing laws weren't much of a deterrent to running red lights and this is big motorist gripe so something had to be done.

The helmet fine came from left field, no reason to jack that fine up.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby cyclebee » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:00 am

JPB wrote:
bychosis wrote:
Boognoss wrote:My thoughts on this are that the 1-1.5 metre rule is great.

All of the rest are created by a mentally-challenged dinosaur politician that is appeasing the bogan-motorist hordes. Hi Alan Jones!! I'll continue riding the way I always do (mostly within the law - always with helmet, regularly not dying on busy peak roads by using the footpath, etc).

As long as my license or ID isn't required to be stuck to my rear-end and enlarged I should be OK ;).
This. I often go without ID, but haven't been stopped by the police in a very long time, and expect it will continue the same. I usually take my phone with me (for Strava!) and on it is a photo of my licence. I have a bad habit of leaving my wallet in my locker at work, then driving work vehicles without ID.
Good idea about the photo of the license.
I was thinking of doing that recently, but I think it's illegal to only carry a photo of your license.

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