NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:26 pm

AUbicycles wrote: @Yugyug, interesting news on previous advocacy group support of fine increases in Victoria, there appears to be a big change of viewpoint based on the public communication.
I'll believe that when I see the BN campaigning for realistic fines for cyclists, the introduction of a 1/1.5m rule, and the repealing of the MHL. Won't be holding my breath on that.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Boognoss wrote:My thoughts on this are that the 1-1.5 metre rule is great.

All of the rest are created by a mentally-challenged dinosaur politician that is appeasing the bogan-motorist hordes...

As long as my license or ID isn't required to be stuck to my rear-end and enlarged I should be OK ;).
My thought too.

It's real politics and this kind of compromises is the norm to satisfy those other interested parties. No one will have 100% their way.

Follow the road rules and carrying an ID are just common sense good practice for all. A bit of a storm in a tea cup.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:41 pm

SBS has nailed it
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:42 pm

human909 wrote:
steveagle wrote:Existing laws weren't much of a deterrent to running red lights and this is big motorist gripe so something had to be done.
Where is the evidence that this is an issue? Why does something have to be done? Where is the evidence that increasing fines will be a deterrent? (It hasn't changed a thing in Vic.)
Its quite evident on my bike commutes people running the red light. We all have done it at some point. It's an issue as the law currently does not allow you to ride through a red light. If there is no issue then change the law to make it legal! Its a common gripe even among cyclists seeing others break the rules.

Why does something have to be done? Times change. Why cant something be done. If its not an issue then the new rules wont affect cyclist but they clearly do. Better that they turn traffic lights into the equivalent of a stop sign not just jacking up penalties.

The evidence is with me. The consequences of a $71 dollar fine is fairly minor even if i get caught. A $350 hurts the wallet a lot more and I am going to be more cautious. Therefore its a deterrent. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:44 pm

sogood wrote:It's real politics and this kind of compromises is the norm to satisfy those other interested parties. No one will have 100% their way.

Follow the road rules and carrying an ID are just common sense good practice for all. A bit of a storm in a tea cup.
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NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:46 pm

human909 wrote:More emotive that have very little to do with MHLs. Have a look at The Netherlands. You have MILLIONS of cyclists riding around without helmets. They do not have an epidemic of head injuries.
Data is a bit old but it's what a 2 mins Google finds. Amazingly, gravity works the same in Netherland and cyclists do crash and bang all the bits and pieces as we do.

Code: Select all

In the Netherlands from 2003 to 2007, 27.5% of cyclist casualties admitted to hospital had head or brain injuries.

In Australia in 2005/06, 25.7% of cyclists with serious injuries had head injuries.

Based on these figures, the Netherlands has a 1.8% greater proportion of cyclist head injuries than does Australia. The Netherlands had an average 2,150 cyclist head/brain injuries per year from 2003-2007, compared to 1,122 serious head injuries in Australia in 2005/06.

In the Netherlands from 2003/07, an average 8,000 cyclists were admitted to hospital each year. In Australia in 2005/06, 4,370 cyclists suffered serious injury.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by sogood on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:49 pm

steveagle wrote:
human909 wrote:
steveagle wrote:Existing laws weren't much of a deterrent to running red lights and this is big motorist gripe so something had to be done.
Where is the evidence that this is an issue? Why does something have to be done? Where is the evidence that increasing fines will be a deterrent? (It hasn't changed a thing in Vic.)
Its quite evident on my bike commutes people running the red light. We all have done it at some point. It's an issue as the law currently does not allow you to ride through a red light. If there is no issue then change the law to make it legal! Its a common gripe even among cyclists seeing others break the rules.

Why does something have to be done? Times change. Why cant something be done. If its not an issue then the new rules wont affect cyclist but they clearly do. Better that they turn traffic lights into the equivalent of a stop sign not just jacking up penalties.

The evidence is with me. The consequences of a $71 dollar fine is fairly minor even if i get caught. A $350 hurts the wallet a lot more and I am going to be more cautious. Therefore its a deterrent. Your mileage may vary.
I see motor vehicle drivers doing it all the time..... just that they are part of the A-team so the police barely bother, only where they can automate it with cameras. The motorist offence is usually done without stopping, at the end of the cycle, where detection is a bit tricky, it is less obvious to other A-team players, and the consequences are far more deadly to others.

All this despite a heavy fine. So quite obviously fines are a questionable deterrent.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:50 pm

il padrone wrote:".....then they came for me - and there was no-one left to speak for me"
Fortunately there's still BNA and we'll be here for you. Been driving and carrying my photo licence for decades and the society is still working well.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:55 pm

sogood wrote:
human909 wrote:More emotive that have very little to do with MHLs. Have a look at The Netherlands. You have MILLIONS of cyclists riding around without helmets. They do not have an epidemic of head injuries.
Data is a bit old but it's what a 2 mins Google finds. Amazingly, gravity works the same in Netherland and cyclists do crash and bang all the bits and pieces as we do.

Code: Select all

In the Netherlands from 2003 to 2007, 27.5% of cyclist casualties admitted to hospital had head or brain injuries.

In Australia in 2005/06, 25.7% of cyclists with serious injuries had head injuries.

Based on these figures, the Netherlands has a 1.8% greater proportion of cyclist head injuries than does Australia. The Netherlands had an average 2,150 cyclist head/brain injuries per year from 2003-2007, compared to 1,122 serious head injuries in Australia in 2005/06.

In the Netherlands from 2003/07, an average 8,000 cyclists were admitted to hospital each year. In Australia in 2005/06, 4,370 cyclists suffered serious injury.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1.8% more head injuries, wow!

In a population where almost nobody wears a helmet when riding about town and country. Yep, that seems a fairly manageable level of increased injury. Nobody here is claiming that helmetless riding has zero risk, just that the negatives of helmet compulsion are not backed up by real benefits. I think your data just proved that.


Anyway, take this to the MHL thread, it's all getting well OT.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:03 pm

il padrone wrote:1.8% more head injuries, wow!
Need better understanding of statistics and the cohort. These only reflect the cohort oh hospitalised ie. Similar hospital admission criteria. Absolute number is more relevant but you have conveniently ignored.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:06 pm

Getting back on-topic, to SBS.
“We don’t want to be a Government that ignores cyclists. We want to be one that openly treats them with contempt because it plays well to talkback radio stations and comment sections of news articles where someone can recount the one time they’ve seen a cyclist do a bad thing and take that as an indicative statement on anyone who dares touch a pedal.”
:twisted: :P :lol: :o Too true methinks.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby grimbo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:13 pm

sogood wrote:
il padrone wrote:".....then they came for me - and there was no-one left to speak for me"
Fortunately there's still BNA and we'll be here for you. Been driving and carrying my photo licence for decades and the society is still working well.
Well, I guess that carrying your driving license when you are driving would make a certain amount of sense.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:19 pm

il padrone wrote:SBS has nailed it
bet me to it

I've just realised that the 1 metre rule is a trial. This means that if the trial is considered a failure, then it will be removed. What is the guidance on determining whether the 1 metre rule is a success or not?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:20 pm

steveagle wrote:Its quite evident on my bike commutes people running the red light. We all have done it at some point... Therefore its a deterrent. Your mileage may vary.
Similarly observed. It's just typical of certain human nature to expect all restraints are placed on others but not themselves. As for those who 'all the time' see cars running red lights. Well, there are red light cameras and the occasional police, shame that some prefer to match the lowest denominator in our society.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:20 pm

il padrone wrote:
I see motor vehicle drivers doing it all the time..... just that they are part of the A-team so the police barely bother, only where they can automate it with cameras. The motorist offence is usually done without stopping, at the end of the cycle, where detection is a bit tricky, it is less obvious to other A-team players, and the consequences are far more deadly to others.

All this despite a heavy fine. So quite obviously fines are a questionable deterrent.
Some people have more money than sense.

Its also the question of whether you can get away with it. How many people do you see run the red where there is a red light speed camera? So maybe if they had more cops out trying to enforce it would become a real deterrent? I'm sure Dunc would approve that.

You will always get clowns that will break rules regardless of the law. But for most of the peasantry it is a deterrent.

I don't run red lights in cars or on bike but I know if the fine is going to be $350, I'm going to be extra careful not to get caught if I have to do it. Seems like a deterrent.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby tubby74 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:26 pm

mikesbytes wrote: What is the guidance on determining whether the 1 metre rule is a success or not?
that would be drawn from the wisdom from the all knowing self proclaimed deity, Duncan. Got a reply again from mike baird's office with an offer to call this person to discuss the new rules , anyone had dealings with them in the past?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:29 pm

sogood wrote:
steveagle wrote:Its quite evident on my bike commutes people running the red light. We all have done it at some point... Therefore its a deterrent. Your mileage may vary.
Similarly observed. It's just typical of certain human nature to expect all restraints are placed on others but not themselves. As for those who 'all the time' see cars running red lights. Well, there are red light cameras and the occasional police, shame that some prefer to match the lowest denominator in our society.
:|

This seems to be directed at me. I'll thank you to cut with the personal allegations about my road behaviour. I have made no statement that running red lights is OK; not trying to "match the lowest denominator in our society" in any way. BTW, it is hardly the lowest group that runs reds when driving - I'd suggest at least 30-40% of drivers will do it routinely and have few qualms about it. I have said that I have run reds when riding the bike, but only late at night when the sensors fail to detect me and there is no traffic at all.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:31 pm

People commuting into Sydney CBD via the Pyrmont Bridge. That bike light should always be green the same time pedestrian crossing is green at the bare minimum. However many times it has been red despite riders waiting and pedestrians crossing. Usually I will go and "run the red". It would be a real shame to cop a fine for that. Whilst I could cop a $71 fine on the chin, it makes no sense to cop a $350 fine.

All other traffic lights I am more than happy to wait alongside cars and don't believe cyclists should run the red. At least until such times they see fit to make red lights equivalent to stop signs for cyclists.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:35 pm

steveagle wrote:People commuting into Sydney CBD via the Pyrmont Bridge. That bike light should always be green the same time pedestrian crossing is green at the bare minimum. However many times it has been red despite riders waiting and pedestrians crossing. Usually I will go and "run the red". It would be a real shame to cop a fine for that. Whilst I could cop a $71 fine on the chin, it makes no sense to cop a $350 fine.
I understand that there are road rule provisions for 'faulty' traffic lights.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby sogood » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:37 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I've just realised that the 1 metre rule is a trial. This means that if the trial is considered a failure, then it will be removed. What is the guidance on determining whether the 1 metre rule is a success or not?
Standard political strategy. 'Trial' is but a name for soft launch, to soften those antagonists of the new rule.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:44 pm

steveagle wrote:People commuting into Sydney CBD via the Pyrmont Bridge. That bike light should always be green the same time pedestrian crossing is green at the bare minimum. However many times it has been red despite riders waiting and pedestrians crossing. Usually I will go and "run the red". It would be a real shame to cop a fine for that. Whilst I could cop a $71 fine on the chin, it makes no sense to cop a $350 fine.

All other traffic lights I am more than happy to wait alongside cars and don't believe cyclists should run the red. At least until such times they see fit to make red lights equivalent to stop signs for cyclists.
If cyclists started:
1. Taking the lane road lane. (Preferably every lane available)
2. Stopping when the cyclist light goes red (as is required no matter what lane you are in).

The traffic chaos would ensue. Sure, it would make a hell of a lot of people annoyed. But it would get the point across about how absurd those signals are.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:52 pm

Cycle.org.au's comments on these planned law changes. Internationally, "Australia is thought to be the laughing stock of the world.... just weird"
Last edited by il padrone on Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:53 pm

steveagle wrote:The evidence is with me.
Nice argument! Claim the evidence is with you, yet offer none!

The only basis that you seem to suggest that it is an issue, is that it is a "common gripe". Please! Should we also outlaw Lycra because that is a common gripe?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby warthog1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:56 pm

sogood wrote:
il padrone wrote:1.8% more head injuries, wow!
Need better understanding of statistics and the cohort. These only reflect the cohort oh hospitalised ie. Similar hospital admission criteria. Absolute number is more relevant but you have conveniently ignored.
As did you;


On average, every Dutch person cycles 2.5km every day and 93% of the population rides a bike at least once a week. Every Australian cycles about 0.1km every day.


That is the relevant statistic from the link you supplied ;) . As much as the 1.8% higher incidence of serious head injury per hospital admitted cyclist is a product of our MHL so is the far lower participation rate to a large degree.
How much higher is our level of obesity with its' impact producing a shorter lifespan, chronic disease and lower quality of life?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby steveagle » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:14 pm

human909 wrote:
steveagle wrote:The evidence is with me.
Nice argument! Claim the evidence is with you, yet offer none!

The only basis that you seem to suggest that it is an issue, is that it is a "common gripe". Please! Should we also outlaw Lycra because that is a common gripe?
I actually don't need evidence because its quite plain for all to see.
Where is the evidence that increasing fines will be a deterrent?
A fine is a deterrent. Increasing a fine is a deterrent. Now obviously if someone is loaded then no it wont be much of a deterrent but make it expensive enough and even they would eventually consider it a deterrent. Your mileage may vary.

In regards to cyclist running the red light, they are breaking the law so that makes it an issue.

Wearing Lycra isn't against the law...

Do you need me to spell it out any further?
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