How do you ensure that any R/A stays focused on the risks to cyclists and is not turned about against them? I have a real fear of that.find_bruce wrote:I have been involved in work health and safety for many years, which leads me to believe that a proper risk assessment is vital, both of the current situation & what you are considering. A risk assessment needs to be evidence based. In terms of controlling that risk, the hierarchy of controls is an excellent way to analyse the effectiveness of proposed measures, ie
- Elimination - it is unlikely we will eliminate cars any time soon
- Substitution - more people on their feet, bikes, buses & trains all contributes
- Engineering controls - eg keep the cars confined
- Administrative controls - road rules, enforcement etc
- Personal protective equipment
Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby fat and old » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:13 pm
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby find_bruce » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:31 pm
I agree a poorly conducted RA is as bad if not worse than nothing - seen a few cases where the substituted approach turned out to have more risks than the former.fat and old wrote:How do you ensure that any R/A stays focused on the risks to cyclists and is not turned about against them? I have a real fear of that.find_bruce wrote:I have been involved in work health and safety for many years, which leads me to believe that a proper risk assessment is vital, both of the current situation & what you are considering. A risk assessment needs to be evidence based. In terms of controlling that risk, the hierarchy of controls is an excellent way to analyse the effectiveness of proposed measures, ie
- Elimination - it is unlikely we will eliminate cars any time soon
- Substitution - more people on their feet, bikes, buses & trains all contributes
- Engineering controls - eg keep the cars confined
- Administrative controls - road rules, enforcement etc
- Personal protective equipment
Two places near me identified the risk of cars driving across the footpath without giving way - one put up a sign warning drivers to give way to pedestrians, the other a warning sign & flashing light - but facing the pedestrians - ie "warning cars dangerously exiting here"
So yes I share your concerns about safety programs being used as a weapon against cyclists - it was one of Drunken Gay's modes of operation.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby find_bruce » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:24 pm
Father pushing to change a law that forces 12-year-olds to ride on the road
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby bychosis » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:18 pm
I also find that all too often those doing the RA jump straight to 4 and 5, admin and PPE. Put up a sign, make you wear a hard hat etc. the higher level control are too hard or cost too much sadly.fat and old wrote:How do you ensure that any R/A stays focused on the risks to cyclists and is not turned about against them? I have a real fear of that.find_bruce wrote:I have been involved in work health and safety for many years, which leads me to believe that a proper risk assessment is vital, both of the current situation & what you are considering. A risk assessment needs to be evidence based. In terms of controlling that risk, the hierarchy of controls is an excellent way to analyse the effectiveness of proposed measures, ie
- Elimination - it is unlikely we will eliminate cars any time soon
- Substitution - more people on their feet, bikes, buses & trains all contributes
- Engineering controls - eg keep the cars confined
- Administrative controls - road rules, enforcement etc
- Personal protective equipment
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:13 pm
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Mububban » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:55 pm
I wonder how many cops would actually stop an obviously young kid and question them/fine them/force them to ride on the road?find_bruce wrote:SMH is asking the same question
Father pushing to change a law that forces 12-year-olds to ride on the road
Of course we tell our young kids that the police are the good guys, laws are there for a reason etc, but if WA hadn't legalised riding on footpaths and my kids were turning 12, there is NO WAY I'd tell them to follow that particular law.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Thoglette » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:25 pm
You've got to remember that these laws are there, fundamentally, to legalise harassment of cyclists.Mububban wrote:I wonder how many cops would actually stop an obviously young kid and question them/fine them/force them to ride on the road?
And, more recently, the collection of useful amounts of revenue as has been done in NSW (SMH)
The NSW example makes it abundantly clear that there are plenty of officers willing to follow a lawful direction to stop and fine cyclists for the most petty of excuses. Some will go a bit further.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby fat and old » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:05 pm
Why do you think it's legal to ride on the footpaths/sans helmet in the Territory? Because cops did that.Mububban wrote:
I wonder how many cops would actually stop an obviously young kid and question them/fine them/force them to ride on the road?
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:48 pm
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby bychosis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:27 pm
Like Mububban, I also wonder how many cops would book you for riding the footpath. I suspect they wouldn't bother most cyclists, perhaps with the exception of the odd inner city blitz or if you were being 'reckless'. I'd be pretty annoyed at the waste of time and resources that would go into fining a bike rider riding along an otherwise vacant path, especially given the prevalence of text driving and close passes on cyclists.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm
What, like riding as part of a parade? Apparently that's $400+ worth of recklessness. (See the link in my previous post)bychosis wrote:..or if you were being 'reckless'.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby 1Rowdy1 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:27 pm
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby g-boaf » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:21 am
Yeah, they certainly do that. I know someone whose kids were booked for doing exactly that, riding on the footpath. They should have instead been riding on the main road with 70km/h traffic (which often does 80+).Mububban wrote:I wonder how many cops would actually stop an obviously young kid and question them/fine them/force them to ride on the road?find_bruce wrote:SMH is asking the same question
Father pushing to change a law that forces 12-year-olds to ride on the road
Of course we tell our young kids that the police are the good guys, laws are there for a reason etc, but if WA hadn't legalised riding on footpaths and my kids were turning 12, there is NO WAY I'd tell them to follow that particular law.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:04 am
That's a strawman based on the fallacy that all cyclists are the same.1Rowdy1 wrote:Don't like the idea, I reckon the standard answer would end up, ride on the footpath
Different cyclists have different needs.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby diggler » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:03 pm
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby diggler » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:07 pm
The problem is that 12 year olds don't vote. The government kneels before the pedestrian lobby because they have votes. The government puts votes ahead of safety.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby diggler » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:12 pm
And not sure why cyclists are anti allowing cycling on footpaths. That would give us more rights not less.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby bychosis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:14 pm
I dislike wearing safety vests, dislike hi-vis in general. I think in most situations it isn't necessary, but happily wear a red or fairly bright blue shirt. I went for a ride a while ago and thought it was a bit sad that two people walking along a fairly quiet share path, completely away from motorised traffic, thought it necessary to be wearing safety vests.diggler wrote:I've never understood why people are against wearing a safety vest. Is the logical conclusion that you should wear dark clothing instead?
..and no, the logical conclusion is not to wear dark clothing, but to have a choice.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:49 pm
Because it'sdiggler wrote:I've never understood why people are against wearing a safety vest.
1) the least effective way to deal with the hazard caused by inappropriate, negligent and reckless use of motor vehicles
and
2) it promotes victim blaming
(I'll add a ps: A "yes' for vests for country touring in low light/after dark. Going to the shops for bread? Madness!)
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby familyguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:59 pm
That's the logical fallacy of "black or white". There are times that black is perfectly valid. There are times that it is not. There are multiple points between. Coming from a construction viewpoint, there are times where hi-viz serves no purpose, as you can't see what you're not looking for.diggler wrote:I've never understood why people are against wearing a safety vest. Is the logical conclusion that you should wear dark clothing instead?
It would certainly give cyclists less perceived rights. This would allow the bleating masses to say "get on the footpath, that's where you should be", without seeing the differentiation between a transport cyclist, a fitness cyclist/group of same, or low confidence/part time cyclist.diggler wrote:And not sure why cyclists are anti allowing cycling on footpaths. That would give us more rights not less.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Mububban » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:07 pm
The only time I've found this helpful is in early winter mornings by pedestrians on the PSP. it's really helpful to have your bike lights light up the reflective tape on their vests, or on their dog's winter jacketbychosis wrote:I went for a ride a while ago and thought it was a bit sad that two people walking along a fairly quiet share path, completely away from motorised traffic, thought it necessary to be wearing safety vests.
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:01 am
If a cyclist is using a footpath he must not go more than 10 km/hwhen the pedestrians are present and give them at least space of 0.5 m.
Also, grading footpaths by velocity (in the case there is no pedestrians) somewhere between 5-25km/h in a step of 5km/h.
Finally, I think a cyclist should be allowed to cross a pedestrian crossing on a bicycle if the speed is less than 5km/h (vs. walking).
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:56 am
I'd be happy with something like that as long as it was an "OR" rather than an "AND", e.g. give a metre OR pass at walking pace. (Which is pretty well what I do). Mind you, it's sort of covered by the rule (at least here in SA) that we always must give way to pedestrians.Bob_Hornsby wrote:Maybe the way to go is to have something like there is cars vs. bicycles.
If a cyclist is using a footpath he must not go more than 10 km/hwhen the pedestrians are present and give them at least space of 0.5 m.
I think those would complicate the rule unnecessarily. Again, the rule about always giving way to pedestrians should suffice.Bob_Hornsby wrote: Also, grading footpaths by velocity (in the case there is no pedestrians) somewhere between 5-25km/h in a step of 5km/h.
Finally, I think a cyclist should be allowed to cross a pedestrian crossing on a bicycle if the speed is less than 5km/h (vs. walking).
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:25 pm
Is your real name Harold Scruby of Mosman?Bob_Hornsby wrote:Maybe the way to go is to have something like there is cars vs. bicycles.
If a cyclist is using a footpath he must not go more than 10 km/hwhen the pedestrians are present and give them at least space of 0.5 m.
Also, grading footpaths by velocity (in the case there is no pedestrians) somewhere between 5-25km/h in a step of 5km/h.
Finally, I think a cyclist should be allowed to cross a pedestrian crossing on a bicycle if the speed is less than 5km/h (vs. walking).
Even pedestrians can go more than 10km/h, think runners at midday zipping through the crowds of normal walkers. If a pedestrian is running at 10km/h, how do you overtake them?
Please, enough of this. We can all ride quite happily around pedestrians without needing more rules.
Ride to the conditions.
People don't need rules, they just need to be more considerate.AdelaidePeter wrote: the rule about always giving way to pedestrians should suffice.
And considerate is not the pedestrian who let his aggressive dog try to attack me last night and laughed about it. Better still, I was being super considerate by riding on the road...
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Re: Will Vic allow bikes on footpaths soon (2017)?
Postby flywheels » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:08 pm
I appreciate the importance of the matters below, as have been raised here. However, I see these 3 as better on separate threads:
Regarding bikes on roads: I think we must and will make the road sharing education happen earnestly. This we can be successful more quickly, because it relies less on politicians and the police
Law enforcement We could lobby for better law-enforcement. Many here expressed little hope.
Long-term: We should keep lobbying for ‘more designed-for-bikes-too major infrastructure’. Realistically this will take many years.
I'll next write a separate post re bikes on footpaths.
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