Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
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Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:28 am
This time there was no question of dodgy braking like in the Alliston case, but simple inattention by the rider who apparently didn't notice the woman step out in front of him. A one year jail sentence, but suspended for 18 months. Not as harsh a penalty as Alliston, but still quite significant.
The thing that strikes me most about this case however is the judges comments about his bike being a weapon. Yes the guy definitely should have seen her, but for a low speed incident (20 km/h or less) and the pedestrian not at a crossing, I feel it would be very unusual to hear a car driver accused of using their car as a weapon in similar circumstances.
Just wondering what others think about this.
Story:
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/crime/ ... b88733513z
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/crime/ ... b88732030z
Site of incident. (Pedestrian stepped out onto the roadway roughly between the two trees on the left of the screen)
https://www.google.com.au/maps/(AT)-31.953 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby P!N20 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:22 am
In light of recent events both here and overseas, I find the judge's comments baffling.uart wrote:The thing that strikes me most about this case however is the judges comments about his bike being a weapon.
I don't disagree with the verdict, but if the vehicle was a car, I bet the question would be why did Ms Goodson step out into traffic.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Leaf T » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:11 am
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby P!N20 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:54 am
If the operator of a vehicle (car, bike, scooter, bus, whatever) isn't paying attention, then it's not an accident.Leaf T wrote:Neither were paying attention. Accidents happen.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:56 am
Yes and even more so, imagine if the vehicle in question was a car (at 20 km/h), and instead of a pedestrian it was a cyclist hopping the curb (not at a crossing) and then pausing on the roadway... And if the cyclist was wearing dark clothing and no helmet (like the pedestrian) ... To think that the court would have (even for one second) considered the car driver to be "using his car like a weapon" in that case is completely laughable. Quite the opposite in fact, almost all of the blame would have been shifted to the cyclist.P!N20 wrote:In light of recent events both here and overseas, I find the judge's comments baffling.uart wrote:The thing that strikes me most about this case however is the judges comments about his bike being a weapon.
I don't disagree with the verdict, but if the vehicle was a car, I bet the question would be why did Ms Goodson step out into traffic.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 pm
Yes I totally agree. Fault on both sides there. It just seems strange to me to see the bicycle described as a weapon by the judge. A car is certainly a MUCH more effective weapon than a bicycle, and yet it's rare to hear a judge describe them as such - particularly in low speed accidents like this involving simple inattention. I don't recall ever hearing a car being described as a weapon in a case of a low speed accident due to inattention.Leaf T wrote:Neither were paying attention. He wasn't looking ahead and she stepped out before looking.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Leaf T » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:29 pm
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Nate » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:58 pm
To say a bicycle is a weapon is ridiculous.
As for the pedestrian - they broke the law clearly & have blame:
Aust Road rules (i couldnt find if its not applicable in WA, so assume it is)
236—Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Thoglette » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:03 pm
I'd like to see Judge Linda Petrusa's track record on car-vs-vunerable-road-user cases.uart wrote:Just wondering what others think about this.
It is, in my observation, extremely rare for a non-fatal MV accident involving a cyclist to result in a custodial sentence.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby queequeg » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:11 pm
IN the CCTV footage of the crash, it looks like the young woman was crossing the road, then stopped in the middle of it, presumably as she saw the rider approaching. If she had just continued walking she would have been well clear before he was anywhere near her.
I wonder if the rider had also expected her to continue walking with the intent to pass behind her, and because she stopped, and he may have been distracted by something else, he's run into her.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby human909 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:32 pm
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Thoglette » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:15 pm
It will be interesting to see if Mr Watt's lawyer believes that there's grounds for an appeal.queequeg wrote:It's a pretty ridiculous judgement.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby eeksll » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:29 pm
I think if a car had run a red light and hit a pedestrian in that manner, the driver of the car would be facing much worse than a suspended sentence.
I disagree with the pedestrian not paying attention, it certainly seemed she stopped and waited, so was paying attention.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby eldavo » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:05 pm
Plenty of footage of riders accelerating from lights similarly and crashing into the back of vehicles that stop accelerating for a reason, e.g. giving way to a bus or turning vehicle.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:17 pm
Indeed. Clearly a head clash. Though we never got to see the video in the Alliston case, I'm guessing it was quite a similar incident.eeksll wrote:very very unfortunate for the victim.
However it didn't actually happen at the crossing area of the lights, it was well past that. And TBH, if you look at all of the footage he appears to be relatively slow and cautious back in the Mall part where there are a lot of pedestrians around, so it's unlikely to have happened if she was crossing with the lights as he seems to be paying quite a lot of attention there.I think if a car had run a red light and hit a pedestrian in that manner, the driver of the car would be facing much worse than a suspended sentence.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Philistine » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:42 pm
Also, does anyone know if a jury found him guilty or was it a judge only trial? Juries are unpredictable,and ,if he was found guilty by one (however flawed their reasoning), he has actually got off lightly. If the judge found him guilty, he has been royally stitched up, and should appeal the verdict.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Leaf T » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:39 pm
Looks to me like she was following the ped in front and was out in the road before looking left. The rider had built up speed and for him it was a case of is she continuing or do I ride behind her. Kind of like the funny dance we do dodging others in a crowded supermarket isle. She could have even been on the phone but they won't look at phone records even though someone was seriously injured. Or have an unjust lifelong criminal record.eeksll wrote:very very unfortunate for the victim.
I think if a car had run a red light and hit a pedestrian in that manner, the driver of the car would be facing much worse than a suspended sentence.
I disagree with the pedestrian not paying attention, it certainly seemed she stopped and waited, so was paying attention.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:42 pm
Watching the video, she first steps onto the roadway when he is only about halfway across Williams St. That places him around twenty metres away when she first stepped out (yes she is very slow). Yet he seems to take no evasive action of any kind, so it sure seems to point to not paying attention to me.Philistine wrote:Is the information linked by the OP the only video evidence available? I cannot see how anyone can draw any meaningful conclusion about the cyclist's attention level on the strength of what can be seen in the video. I can see only two interpretations: either (1) he was paying attention and didn't have time to react, or (2) he wasn't paying attention and he would have been able to avoid the pedestrian if he had been. The evidence does not support a firm conclusion either way.
That's also how I think it likely happened eldavo.eldavo wrote:Looks like the rider had head down accelerating into the assumed vacant street.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby biker jk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm
That's how I saw it as well. Rider wasn't looking ahead while accelerating and bang.uart wrote:On the video it appears that she first steps onto the roadway when he is about halfway across Williams St. That places him around twenty metres from her when she first stepped out (yes she is very slow). He seems to take no evasive action of any kind, so it sure seems to point to not paying attention to me.Philistine wrote:Is the information linked by the OP the only video evidence available? I cannot see how anyone can draw any meaningful conclusion about the cyclist's attention level on the strength of what can be seen in the video. I can see only two interpretations: either (1) he was paying attention and didn't have time to react, or (2) he wasn't paying attention and he would have been able to avoid the pedestrian if he had been. The evidence does not support a firm conclusion either way.
That's also how I think it likely happened eldavo.eldavo wrote:Looks like the rider had head down accelerating into the assumed vacant street.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Philistine » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm
You may be right but does the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" hold any meaning for you?biker jk wrote:That's also how I think it likely happened eldavo.eldavo wrote:Looks like the rider had head down accelerating into the assumed vacant street.
That's how I saw it as well. Rider wasn't looking ahead while accelerating and bang.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby eldavo » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:10 pm
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:26 pm
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:40 pm
Yes good point. Now if they were being at all consistent with how they normally report car cyclist incidents, then they should have reported it as "the pedestrian collided with the bicycle".Mulger bill wrote:Why do cyclists "plough into" pedestrians but they are "hit by" cars?
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby John Lewis » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:06 am
A call for cyclists to be licensed and carry compulsory third party insurance as well as be required to have passed a test on road rules.
Then also the usual stuff about 2 abreast etc.
I'd suspect most adult cyclists on the road are also drive. Likely they know the rules better than most as they are probably well aware of both the general vehicle and bicycle specific rules.
Almost feel like writing letter to editor myself but hey it wouldn't suit their agenda so likely wouldn't be published.
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Re: Judges comments about using a bicycle as a weapon?
Postby uart » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:31 am
So let me get this right. You're saying that if you had have been running this guy's defense that you would have argued that there was a "reasonable doubt" that this happened due to inattention, and that it therefore might have been the case that he deliberately targeted and run down the woman? Wow I hope you're not a defense lawyer.Philistine wrote:You may be right but does the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" hold any meaning for you?
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