Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby antigee » Thu May 31, 2018 7:37 pm

came across this article:

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/542 ... to-prison/

which begs the question - what can be done to prevent disqualified drivers from getting behind the wheel? - in this case was caught but simply got a further ban :(

not just worrying for cyclist but for any road user from a casual reading of the news repeat offenders and disqualified drivers or past disqualified drivers seem to more often than not feature in the deaths of other road users

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:38 am

antigee wrote:came across this article:

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/542 ... to-prison/

which begs the question - what can be done to prevent disqualified drivers from getting behind the wheel? - in this case was caught but simply got a further ban :(

not just worrying for cyclist but for any road user from a casual reading of the news repeat offenders and disqualified drivers or past disqualified drivers seem to more often than not feature in the deaths of other road users
Prison needs to be an option.

In another thread today I wrote that I wouldn't object to drivers who cause a death getting a massive license cancellation (like 20 years) instead of gaol; but then gaol needs to be an option for those who drive anyway.

In the case of this guy, if he's not going to prison, I hope he gets regular, unannounced checks by the police to check he's not driving. I know this is possible because this happened to someone I know who committed a much more minor (non-driving) offence. Even checking on him daily would be a fraction of the cost of putting him in prison.

It's also appalling that he is only disqualified for 6 months.

BJL
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby BJL » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:03 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:Prison needs to be an option.
This
AdelaidePeter wrote:In another thread today I wrote that I wouldn't object to drivers who cause a death getting a massive license cancellation (like 20 years) instead of gaol; but then gaol needs to be an option for those who drive anyway.
I object. Cause a death and it should be a mandatory jail sentence. If you shoot someone dead, you'll go to prison. Same should happen to anyone who kills someone regardless of the weapon used. Why should motorists be exempt? A driver's license should not be a license to kill.
antigee wrote:which begs the question - what can be done to prevent disqualified drivers from getting behind the wheel? - in this case was caught but simply got a further ban :(
Simple. Crush ANY vehicle being driven by an unlicensed driver unless the vehicle is reported stolen by the owner. And no, you can't steal your own vehicle.

I'll be waiting for the day a family has to choose between seeing the family SUV get crushed or saying the 16 year old family member stole it for a joyride so the kid gets charged with stealing the motor vehicle on top of the traffic offences. Or the guy who lends his car to an unlicensed mate (whether he knows it or not) and has the same decision to make.

Do you push your mate or family member under the bus or watch 'precious' get crushed? What a dilemma!

Something tells me I wouldn't have to wait too long. :D

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:21 am

BJL wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:Prison needs to be an option.
This
AdelaidePeter wrote:In another thread today I wrote that I wouldn't object to drivers who cause a death getting a massive license cancellation (like 20 years) instead of gaol; but then gaol needs to be an option for those who drive anyway.
I object. Cause a death and it should be a mandatory jail sentence. If you shoot someone dead, you'll go to prison. Same should happen to anyone who kills someone regardless of the weapon used. Why should motorists be exempt? A driver's license should not be a license to kill.
Not necessarily, if the shooting is accidental. Same for other types of accidental deaths. I'm uncomfortable with mandatory jail sentencing.
BJL wrote:
antigee wrote:which begs the question - what can be done to prevent disqualified drivers from getting behind the wheel? - in this case was caught but simply got a further ban :(
Simple. Crush ANY vehicle being driven by an unlicensed driver unless the vehicle is reported stolen by the owner.
I like that! (With some caveats, e.g. some car owners don't know the car is stolen until after the crash. But they're a minority).

human909
Posts: 9810
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby human909 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:33 am

BJL wrote:I object. Cause a death and it should be a mandatory jail sentence. If you shoot someone dead, you'll go to prison. Same should happen to anyone who kills someone regardless of the weapon used. Why should motorists be exempt? A driver's license should not be a license to kill.
If only it was so simple. While I agree that killing by motor vehicle should be approached more seriously sending everyone to gaol for accidental deaths is not really a useful outcome for society. Mandatory gaol sentence would onerous and unjust.

Your suggestion of mandatory gaol for road deaths would seem grossly unjust for say a loving parent who accidentally reverses over their toddler. Adding goal time on top of the loss of their child is horrendous. Not to mention further tearing apart the rest of the family.

BJL
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby BJL » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:56 am

human909 wrote: Your suggestion of mandatory gaol for road deaths would seem grossly unjust for say a loving parent who accidentally reverses over their toddler. Adding goal time on top of the loss of their child is horrendous. Not to mention further tearing apart the rest of the family.
AdelaidePeter wrote:Not necessarily, if the shooting is accidental. Same for other types of accidental deaths. I'm uncomfortable with mandatory jail sentencing.
Okay, you've both made good points. Obviously there'd have to be allowances for exceptional circumstances. But not to the point where everyone gets off like the two who got off bashing a paramedic. I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong and backtrack a little.

User avatar
Nate
Posts: 3209
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Nate » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:45 pm

Chop both their arms off...

Seriously - not much else will actually work. They'll continue to get behind a wheel because they can easily get away with it.

User avatar
jules21
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby jules21 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:14 pm

a practical option would seem to be prohibiting them from having access to a registered vehicle while they are suspended.

the driver should be compelled by court to submit a plan for what they will do with the car while they are suspended, that places it out of their reach. it needs to be flexible to allow for loaning to a 3rd party, e.g. family member.

at the moment I believe they can just keep the car, rego and keys. no surprises for guessing what that leads to.

westab
Posts: 1703
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: Blacktown, NSW

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby westab » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:39 pm

jules21 wrote:a practical option would seem to be prohibiting them from having access to a registered vehicle while they are suspended.

the driver should be compelled by court to submit a plan for what they will do with the car while they are suspended, that places it out of their reach. it needs to be flexible to allow for loaning to a 3rd party, e.g. family member.

at the moment I believe they can just keep the car, rego and keys. no surprises for guessing what that leads to.
Jules sounds very reasonable - Whilst I do like the option of crushing cars being used by suspended drivers I believe this should only be their own car. That said I won't let any old clown drive cars I am responsible for - any other reasonable person I assume would do similar.

Jules what you are saying does look to be a better option along with the option of you don't follow your plan and get busted then face the judge again and the judge lets you know the plan for your last chance. After this if its your mates car they loose it for a month (or other length of very inconvenient time), your car and you get it donated to a charity who takes care of people suffering from motor vehicle injuries or similar.
Not fast, no style, but still get there.

Shred11
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 12:32 pm
Location: Launceston

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Shred11 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:52 pm

Repeat offenders need to be sent to gaol for the safety of the public. If they've been fined before and continue to drive while disqualified, then they've made it clear that no option other than gaol will prevent them from getting behind the wheel.

There have been a number of spectacular fatal car crashes in my area caused by disqualified drivers (it's usually the "trifecta": disqualified + drug/alcohol affected + unregistered / un-roadworthy vehicle). I have no sympathy for them at all - these scum deserve everything they get and should have a lifetime ban from driving after they get out - with another hefty gaol term automatically applied if they ever get behind the wheel. Too many times innocent people die or suffer permanent injury, while the offender gets yet another slap on the wrist with wet lettuce.

User avatar
StevOz
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:37 pm
Location: Dunsborough, WA.

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby StevOz » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:03 pm

Perhaps mafia justice...one finger first offense, then two....

RobertL
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:08 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby RobertL » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:13 pm

jules21 wrote:a practical option would seem to be prohibiting them from having access to a registered vehicle while they are suspended.

the driver should be compelled by court to submit a plan for what they will do with the car while they are suspended, that places it out of their reach. it needs to be flexible to allow for loaning to a 3rd party, e.g. family member.

at the moment I believe they can just keep the car, rego and keys. no surprises for guessing what that leads to.
Maybe include a plan for how they intend to get around and travel without their car as well. Make them explain exactly how they will get to work, to the gym, do the school run etc etc.

The only problem that I see with impounding or crushing cars is with cars in dual names. For example, my car is jointly owned by my wife and me. If I did something and was banned from driving, I don't see how my wife could be deprived of our car. And if she has access to it, then so will I.

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:15 pm

Shred11 wrote:Repeat offenders need to be sent to gaol for the safety of the public. If they've been fined before and continue to drive while disqualified, then they've made it clear that no option other than gaol will prevent them from getting behind the wheel.

There have been a number of spectacular fatal car crashes in my area caused by disqualified drivers (it's usually the "trifecta": disqualified + drug/alcohol affected + unregistered / un-roadworthy vehicle). I have no sympathy for them at all - these scum deserve everything they get and should have a lifetime ban from driving after they get out - with another hefty gaol term automatically applied if they ever get behind the wheel. Too many times innocent people die or suffer permanent injury, while the offender gets yet another slap on the wrist with wet lettuce.
Yes I agree but that means we need a mandatory gaol sentence for a repeat offender. The problem is judicial discretion over sentencing, it's a total disaster (witness the non-custodial sentences for the two women who assaulted paramedics in Victoria which has seen the State Government announce the introduction of mandatory gaol sentences).

fat and old
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby fat and old » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:53 pm

BJL wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:Prison needs to be an option.
This
It was in 1986, and I doubt that's changed. Yes, I know through experience.

User avatar
DrShifty
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby DrShifty » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:06 pm

I've recently retired after twenty years working with repeat offenders with NSW Corrective Services and have seen that there are no easy answers to the 'drive while disqualified' questions.

People will offend because they do not respect the authority over their decisions of some other body, such as court, police, parole, common sense or public opinion. Drugs, alcohol and peer pressure are strong disinhibiters that compound the problem.

It used to be that with every successive offense the RTA would add an additional five years to the disqualification regardless of the court's sentencing. I've known people whose unborn grandchildren would be driving before their suspension expires.

In NSW there is an automatic prison sentence for causing death while driving in certain circumstances.
https://nsw.criminallegal.com.au/traffi ... ning-death

We had talk of extending the impounding of cars for some hoon offenses to confiscating and crushing of cars for higher level or repeat offenses but I don't think they got very far with that legislation.

Here in Australia it is almost impossible for people to live and work successfully without access to transport, and in many places that means a car. Legislators and courts take this into consideration but it's tricky trying to get a blanket rule that covers all circumstances. I've worked with men after release who manage to get a job for which there is no suitable public transport so their life becomes a chess game of asking workmates for a lift until it becomes a sort of roster for the workplace.

Audioio
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:04 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Audioio » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:25 pm

BJL wrote: I'll be waiting for the day a family has to choose between seeing the family SUV get crushed...
I'd love to see all the lard-arsed Suburban assaUlt Vehicles get crushed.

User avatar
Cheesewheel
Posts: 1209
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:22 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Cheesewheel » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:26 pm

DrShifty wrote:I've recently retired after twenty years working with repeat offenders with NSW Corrective Services and have seen that there are no easy answers to the 'drive while disqualified' questions.

People will offend because they do not respect the authority over their decisions of some other body, such as court, police, parole, common sense or public opinion. Drugs, alcohol and peer pressure are strong disinhibiters that compound the problem.

It used to be that with every successive offense the RTA would add an additional five years to the disqualification regardless of the court's sentencing. I've known people whose unborn grandchildren would be driving before their suspension expires.

In NSW there is an automatic prison sentence for causing death while driving in certain circumstances.
https://nsw.criminallegal.com.au/traffi ... ning-death

We had talk of extending the impounding of cars for some hoon offenses to confiscating and crushing of cars for higher level or repeat offenses but I don't think they got very far with that legislation.

Here in Australia it is almost impossible for people to live and work successfully without access to transport, and in many places that means a car. Legislators and courts take this into consideration but it's tricky trying to get a blanket rule that covers all circumstances. I've worked with men after release who manage to get a job for which there is no suitable public transport so their life becomes a chess game of asking workmates for a lift until it becomes a sort of roster for the workplace.
My experience is purely anecdotal, based on the hearsay and observations of 3 people I know who have served time in jail .... but if you are a "normal" person (ie someone who doesn't have serious connections with a lifestyle that subsists off the proceeds of crime) even a brief time (say 6 months) locked up is sufficient to throw a serious spanner in life's works (what to speak of 6 years). Automatically you lose your job and the banks take over whatever you may have under mortgage. Coming out of prison, there are a host of hurdles that reduce the prospect of gaining any meaningful employment.

Of those three, all of them are now on the pension for mental health related issues, probably directly or indirectly due to the experience of being in jail, and all are divorced.
I don't have a workable solution for the current state of affairs, but I think many involved in the judiciary system see the futility of incareration as some sort of means of rectifying behaviour. It seems many (most?) people who ho to jail end up on welfare queues when they get out.
Go!Run!GAH!

zebee
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:37 am

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby zebee » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:53 am

I think it's about why people do things. Why commit the offences that led to the banning then why drive while banned.

As DrShifty said, there are different reasons why they drive. The way to deal with the "!! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! the establishment" kind is different to the "I have to drive to live" kind.

The "!! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! the establishment" kind are going to be hard to do anything with. But the others interest me more. Why did they get banned in the first place? Habitual or one off?

Once banned why drive? Can't think of anything else? Can't do anything else? More information needed. There's going to be a range of reasons to be banned, and a range of reasons to drive while banned. Ranging from "can't think of anything else, can't change my habits" to "stuffed up once now my live built on car access is unlivable". And a different set of answers for the different problems.

Maybe what's needed is for some philanthropist to set up a discount scheme to lease an e-bike for the 6 months. With option to buy. So for $30 a week or something you can ride to the nearest transport point that works for you. That helps the car-dependent, the car-habitual might need more incentive to use it but that could be some kind of training to change thinking.

hunch
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:06 am

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby hunch » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:17 am

zebee wrote:Once banned why drive? Can't think of anything else? Can't do anything else? More information needed. There's going to be a range of reasons to be banned, and a range of reasons to drive while banned. Ranging from "can't think of anything else, can't change my habits" to "stuffed up once now my live built on car access is unlivable". And a different set of answers for the different problems.
Looks like the NSW government has decided life without a car is simply impossible. If what old Screwloose says is true, prison time seems the only education that might work for some -

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ple ... 4ziz7.html

BJL
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby BJL » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:38 am

DrShifty wrote: Here in Australia it is almost impossible for people to live and work successfully without access to transport, and in many places that means a car. Legislators and courts take this into consideration but it's tricky trying to get a blanket rule that covers all circumstances. I've worked with men after release who manage to get a job for which there is no suitable public transport so their life becomes a chess game of asking workmates for a lift until it becomes a sort of roster for the workplace.
Then people should value their driver's license at little more and stop acting like morons on the roads. You'd think if you needed a license for work, you'd give it the respect it deserves. But in a country where a driver's license is a god given right,they may as well give them away in cereal boxes because they're not worth any more these days. And if your partner needs the car, then perhaps show your partner a little respect by not risking their access to a motor vehicle so I have no qualms about having a vehicle in those circumstances crushed. However, the partner would be given the opportunity to report the vehicle stolen as per my first post. So what's it to be, throw your partner under a bus or crushed car? I'll get out the popcorn! :P
zebee wrote: Maybe what's needed is for some philanthropist to set up a discount scheme to lease an e-bike for the 6 months. With option to buy. So for $30 a week or something you can ride to the nearest transport point that works for you. That helps the car-dependent, the car-habitual might need more incentive to use it but that could be some kind of training to change thinking.
I don't mind this idea. Maybe give the O-bikes a new lease on life. It would also give a few of the bogans a taste of their own medicine as they get abused by their once fellow motorists. It would also puts more cyclists on the roads and help normalize cycling as a way of commuting. I think there's a lot of positives to this idea.

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby biker jk » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:56 am

I like the Swedish policy of impounding and crushing the cars of repeat drunk drivers being extended to all repeat offenders. I'm sure the Law Societies would agree that copying the enlightened policies of Scandinavian countries makes sense.

commute
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:06 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby commute » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:59 am

I'm all for the offending person losing their vehicle permanently. However if the vehicle is worth more than say $3k then it should be sold and that money put in to state coffers rather than being crushed and wasting more of the world's resources.

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 7250
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby bychosis » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:04 am

Surely for those that need to get to work an interlock could be fitted to their car to only allow driving during commute times. Then there is also geo tagging and tracking.

It is possible to give a person home detention for non serious offences and also to allow them to take kids to a and from school with their ankle trackers on. Why not extend it to cars for those who are of low risk of reoffending except if they need to drive to work.

Still prefer car crushing though. Edit: but it’s not much of a punishment on a corolla or commodore that is only worth as much as the rego.
Last edited by bychosis on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

Philistine
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Philistine » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:19 am

Jail time for repeat offenders is not a new idea. Many years ago I had just started my first job in a laboratory in England, and one of my older colleagues failed to turn up for work one day, and was never seen again. No explanation was given and we had to cover for him as best we could. We were already aware that he had been convicted of drink driving and banned from driving for a year, and eventually the facts behind his disappearance dribbled out. A few days after the ban started, an enterprising walloper drove to his home around the time the pubs closed (10.30 PM back then), established he was out, and so was his car, and simply waited for him to come home (these days the civil libertarians would be all over this). He was jailed for nine months for willfully disobeying the original court order banning him from driving.

User avatar
Timeonabike
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: Repeat offenders - driving whilst disqualified....how to fix?

Postby Timeonabike » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:08 pm

Give them a car made of balsa wood or similar that can only do 20 km per hour. They'll get to work eventually and next crash they cause will make them the crumple zone.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users