Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

[fat and old]

Yes, provocative enough.

The most common comment I read here, there, everywhere with regards to "why can't we have Dutch infrastructure" is "the government has no will" or something of that ilk. Somehow, the idea that the Government will look after all of our problems has got to the point where they are held responsible for our shortcomings as a society. We are shown the Dutch nirvana constantly as an example of a Government being pro active and progressive.

History shows us that's wrong.

It's well documented that the kernel that caused such a system in The Netherlands was the Stop the Child Murder campaign. The creation of safe communities...a woonerf....were the beginnings of the cycling infrastructure the Dutch have today. This was not a pro active government move made out of the progressiveness of their hearts. This was a reaction to large, well organised protests and media appearances by that movement.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

We want change in this country? We need numbers. We don't have numbers...we are an insignificant minority. It took the Dutch a decade to effect change. A well organised, strongly led campaign with an evocative centre piece...child deaths. Why is that going to happen here? How?

Discuss. Or not. Disagree. Or not.

[twowheels]

Amsterdam 219.3km2, Copenhagen 88.25km2, Perth 6418km2.
The whole of Oz cities can not be compared. Start with a radius say 5km around the cbd can be though.

[Cyclophiliac]

Amsterdam 219.3km2, Copenhagen 88.25km2, Perth 6418km2.
The whole of Oz cities can not be compared. Start with a radius say 5km around the cbd can be though.

The size of Perth you quoted is the metropolitan area size. If you use Google to search for "<city name> metropolitan area size", you'll get the size as the first match. For Amsterdam, this is actually 2580km2. So yes, the difference is marked, but not as much as you said.

I think the main reason Amsterdam's cycling policies will never work here is because Australia is a lot newer than the European countries, and so has been dominated by motor vehicles for a larger proportion of its history, and of course the large travel distances just reinforces this. This is why cyclists will probably always be a small minority in Australia, with correspondingly less influence on transport policies.

[fat and old]

Yeah, environmental reasons are valid, but I'm actually looking at the how. How to achieve change. Using the Dutch example would work, except no one here really cares. We don't have a sympathetic focal point. How do you achieve change from a position that as cyclists we're in? That's my point....claiming that "the Dutch did it" is disingenuous at best.

[human909]

We want change in this country? We need numbers. We don't have numbers...we are an insignificant minority.

We don't have the numbers because we let the numbers we had erode.

So the solution? Small incremental changes focusing on rules and safety at the state and national level. On the local level focus grow where growth is easiest and watch it spread from there.

Start with a radius say 5km around the cbd can be though.

Definitely happening in inner Melbourne, and whats more the knock on effect is extremely noticeable. From my perspective it started in Parkville, Carlton, Fitzroy, Princess Hill... But it now well spread into Brunswick, Richmond, North Melbourne, Kensington. Nortcote, Thorbury and Alphington are seeing good penetration.

Councils have built the infrastructure and it is being used. The state government hasn't helped but it has had the same level of anti cyclist attitudes as in Sydney. More broadly we face challenges especially due to suburbs in the last 50 years being designed around the car and lack local commerce.

The easy battles are being won and progress is being made.

How to achieve change.

Pick the battles and take the easy ground first. In most case that is inner city areas. Inner areas of some regional towns are doing well too.

The other 'easy' battles is laws regarding basic safety. AKA minimum passing laws. The fact that those battles were tough just shows how unreceptive our state governments are on this issue.

Getting kids back onto bikes probably shouldn't be overstated. The safety of children is a much easier sell than the safety of MAMILS. Get the state pollies out of their cars and standing on the street in front of South Brunswick Primary School. Then ask them how come they aren't passing laws to make these kids safe.

[fat and old]

Definitely happening in inner Melbourne, and whats more the knock on effect is extremely noticeable. From my perspective it started in Parkville, Carlton, Fitzroy, Princess Hill... But it now well spread into Brunswick, Richmond, North Melbourne, Kensington. Nortcote, Thorbury and Alphington are seeing good penetration.

Actually, I've seen it spread into Preston, lower Reservoir, Coburg, Pascoe Vale South, Heidelberg, Ivanhoe etc over the last 5 years. It follows the apartments basically. They're the sign of gentrification, and the cyclists follow.

But they are not activists and won't be until we reach tragic proportions. That's what it took in The Netherlands; I see no reason to assume otherwise here. I have to admit....Dave Sharp does have some good points, few as they are.

Getting kids back onto bikes probably shouldn't be overstated. The safety of children is a much easier sell than the safety of MAMILS. Get the state pollies out of their cars and standing on the street in front of South Brunswick Primary School. Then ask them how come they aren't passing laws to make these kids safe.

A good point, but unless there are deaths it won't matter. Name one social change or significant movement that wasn't brought about by a tragedy?

[human909]

It follows the apartments basically. They're the sign of gentrification, and the cyclists follow.

It is definitely associated and correlated with that but it isn't that alone. The effect of everybody else is doing it, so I can do it to cannot be overstated. All those suburbs you mentioned are on the outer borders of the suburbs where cycling is well entrenched.

In contrast there has South Yarra, Pahran, Toorak have long had apartments and gentry but cycling has been much slower on the uptake. (Hills are certainly one aspect, but big part is social acceptance.)

As somebody who grew up in Ivanhoe I would hardly say it has been gentrified recently. I don't see that change in demographics being nearly as significant as Brunswick/Fitzroy/Collingwood/Clifton Hill and to a lesser extent Northcote and Thornbury.

Again Parkville and Princess Hill have had exploding cycling numbers without significant change in social class or significant change in apartments. (Some big ones have gone up in a few places, but the bulk of the streetscape remains nice Victorian era houses.

A good point, but unless there are deaths it won't matter. Name one social change or significant movement that wasn't brought about by a tragedy?

There are many. But that doesn't invalidate the overall point you are making. I hope you are wrong on this point, but I have no basis to argue against it. I fear there is a fair bit of truth in your statement.

[fat and old]

Yeah, gentrified may be the wrong word esp. in relation to Ivanhoe. The age demographic has definitely changed. The suburb has "spread" to West Heidelberg (we now have Heidelberg Heights.....I can remember drinking at the aptly named Colosseum ) and south to the Darebin Ck. As someone who grew up on the Northland side of the creek in the 60's and 70's (and now works from there) and used to beat on the Ivanhoe boys I've seen the change firsthand. Mate, my wife helped build the Darebin Ck bike path in the mid 80's.

The effect of everybody else is doing it, so I can do it to cannot be overstated. All those suburbs you mentioned are on the outer borders of the suburbs where cycling is well entrenched.

Yeah, absolutely. People who wish to live that lifestyle but cannot afford inner city are moving to the fringes which are becoming "inner" as time goes on and the burbs stretch further and further out.

[antigee]

not sure if agree or disagree - while motorised transport is thought of by many as the only "choice" then cycling numbers will remain small - so does require political will and leadership that will challenge the status quo and not take the easy line of pandering to sentiments that have created a road network which has squeezed out cyclists and pedestrians

As to Aus' politicians look at reactions to suggestions that road space might be reallocated in Melbourne CBD and speed limits reduced:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-21/m ... rs/9892998

Premier Daniel Andrews said he did not want to see further restrictions on car usage in Melbourne's CBD at a time when significant construction projects were already causing increased congestion.

"Melbourne city council are free to pursue these ideas, but they're not ideas the Government supports," Mr Andrews said.

Opposition Leader Matthew Guy said he would stop any plan to reduce the number of lanes for motorists in the CBD if he won office in the November election.

"I don't think it's a radical plan, it's a ridiculous plan," Mr Guy said.

New York is possibly a good modern example of where what was thought impossible is being achieved but not without opposition and it takes political will to argue back and point to the fallacies in arguments:

Today there are more than 450,000 daily bike trips in the city, up from 170,000 in 2005, an increase that has outpaced population and employment growth, according to city officials.

Polly Trottenberg, the city’s transportation commissioner, said .............. expanding the biking infrastructure was vital to keeping pace with the soaring population. “We can’t continue to accommodate a lot of the growth with cars,” she said. “We need to turn to the most efficient modes, that is, transit, cycling and walking. Our street capacity is fixed.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/30/nyre ... uting.html

(possible pop up ad's)

also look at Paris and Barcelona large cities where politicians have acted against opposition to reduce vehicle dominance

[human909]

Yeah, absolutely. People who wish to live that lifestyle but cannot afford inner city are moving to the fringes which are becoming "inner" as time goes on and the burbs stretch further and further out.

Very true. The interesting observation is that the same growth trend hasn't extended as readily south, east and west as it has to the north. The reasons are multifaceted but two prominent ones that spring to mind are:
-the natural organic geographic spread of cycling growth aka if those around you locally are cycling then you are more likely to cycle (peer influence, safety in numbers and the associated better infrastructure)
-the social/political demographic a quick look at the number of green voters in suburbs is also pretty telling

The slightly disparaging comments my brother in law has received about living in North Fitzroy in his conservative white collar industry is also telling.

This has been slightly side tracked into social economic and demographic trends...

But I do believe that the one of the important way to grow cycling in Australia is focus where the demand is and then let it organically spread. (Ideally I'd love to see far better planning for cyclists in EVERY new development and more provisions in existing suburbia.) But realistically I think these are tough battles to win at the moment.

Oh and lets not forget this as it mostly goes hand in hand:
https://www.domain.com.au/news/its-not- ... qz-755015/
"Five years ago Victoria Walks conducted a Melbourne walkability survey that put Carlton on top with 97 points, Fitzroy next with 96, Fitzroy North, Melbourne and St Kilda rated with 93 points, followed by South Yarra, East Melbourne, South Melbourne and Collingwood, all with 92 points."

[fat and old]

Yeah, absolutely. People who wish to live that lifestyle but cannot afford inner city are moving to the fringes which are becoming "inner" as time goes on and the burbs stretch further and further out.

Very true. The interesting observation is that the same growth trend hasn't extended as readily south, east and west as it has to the north. The reasons are multifaceted but two prominent ones that spring to mind are:
-the natural organic geographic spread of cycling growth aka if those around you locally are cycling then you are more likely to cycle (peer influence, safety in numbers and the associated better infrastructure)
-the social/political demographic a quick look at the number of green voters in suburbs is also pretty telling

I can't state with authority on the west but my gut feeling is that it's beginning to maybe not explode but definitely expand greatly, and has been since people discovered Footscray, Yarraville and even Williamstown as being viable alternatives to other "inner" areas. I see great numbers in the morning along Footscray Rd, Somerville Rd, Dynon Rd...they have to be coming from somewhere?

while motorised transport is thought of by many as the only "choice" then cycling numbers will remain small - so does require political will and leadership that will challenge the status quo and not take the easy line of pandering to sentiments that have created a road network which has squeezed out cyclists and pedestrians

Which is what I'm getting at. Political will in and of itself wasn't enough in the Netherlands.....it took 10 years of protest by the people, in an era when strong protest was the accepted way to achieve change. There is and will not be anything like that here. Not only has the protest era moved on towards less confrontational methods the general population is less likely to support the "fringes" when life is good. Which here; in Australia; it is.

I grew up with a couple blokes who were from the Basque and Asturias regions in Spain. One in particular lamented our living standards as being too good for people to care about social change by force (he was a pseudo pinko )

[bychosis]

When the states can't even agree on rules, and implement 'trials' of rules working elsewhere we end up furhter duiluting the cyclist group's focus. From what I read/see inner melbourne has a fairly good cycling culture and yet Vic is dragging the chain to implement the 1m passing rules the Qld succesfully trialled. NSW has 'caved to pressure' and now allows up to 16yo to cycle on paths when in other states all ages can, and have done for some time.

It's ridiculous that a country of this size still can't have consistent road rules even after implementing a national rule set. Having a national direction would help focus cyclists energy on moving towards the Dutch model. Unfortunately we are a long way off.

[eldavo]

The democracy of some parts of Switzerland was summed up in a little filler segment on ABC2 or ABC3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

Where do you begin on this topic of corrupted representatives, a history as a colony, foreign Monarchy, in a democracy that referendum decided against becoming a republic?

By current politics measured at the last Federal Election, a direct democracy would continue to support offshore detention of refugees, more recently in contrast supported marriage equality, and likely would vote for registration for cyclists, because like mandatory helmets that seems like a logical good idea at face value. Can't spare time to think, I have my alcoholism and gambling to get to before Home and Away starts.

[human909]

It's ridiculous that a country of this size still can't have consistent road rules even after implementing a national rule set. Having a national direction would help focus cyclists energy on moving towards the Dutch model.

I disagree here and the evidence is pretty clear here. The real progress on cycling hasn't been made at the federal or state government levels, it has been local councils. A national direction is the last thing we want as you can be cyclists would be a long way down the list.

Also at a more practical level infrastructure and the general urban landscape probably is one of if not the biggest influence here. Hence I'm happy to see it in the hands of the councils. (Likewise there is a reason why Brisbane Council will struggle to be more cyclist friendly compared to Melbourne Council and Sydney Council).

From what I read/see inner melbourne has a fairly good cycling culture and yet Vic is dragging the chain to implement the 1m passing rules the Qld succesfully trialled.

This example seems to run contrary to having a national focus be a positive thing. QLD has lead almost all the states on this issue, yet it is hardly a shining example of good cycling culture. Letting the positive progress spread from all areas is better than hoping for traction at a federal level.

1m passing rule or not, Victoria has a safer cycling culture than NSW and QLD from what I've seen reported and from what I've experience myself. (Not that it is a competition.) NT and ACT probably lead the way overall.

[Scintilla]

Amsterdam 219.3km2, Copenhagen 88.25km2, Perth 6418km2.
The whole of Oz cities can not be compared. Start with a radius say 5km around the cbd can be though.

Your figure for Copenhagen is just the inner city area. A bit like saying that Melbourne ends at Hoddle Street or Perth finishes at The Narrows Bridge

Copenhagen metropolitan area = 2778 sq kms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhage ... litan_area

[fat and old]

2778 sq k’s? Pfft

Melbourne 9,992 sq k’s

[Thoglette]

Your figure for Copenhagen is just the inner city area. A bit like saying that Melbourne ends at Hoddle Street or Perth finishes at The Narrows Bridge

And "area" is a euphemism for "we didn't plan and look what happened".

For what it's worth, "middle" Perth (inside it's main ring road) is now denser that Melbourne was when it put all it's trams and rail in.

Large chunks of inner Perth (and in particular the northern part of the "golden triangle") is now over 3000p/km2 - on it's way to 10x the density of the Netherlands as a whole.

It's not something that actually relates to nor is a fundamental parameter for urban planning never mind cycling policy. e.g. I'm currently staying in a major Victorian town (officially well outside Melbourne) and can get into the Melbourne CBD faster by bike and train during most of the week. You might as well note that the Dutch flag has a different background colour.

The issue is planning, road design and cultural settings. All products of public policy (or rather, a lack of it). Again, WA pisses away $1.5B per annum making new or bigger roads by default- that's the equivalent of $15B across the country. Or $60B across forward estimates. It is only in the last few years with the recent "big spending" project promises that rail has come close. And it's considered a once-in-a-generation boom. V.s. "normal business" for state road building (not repair).

And I say "pisses away" because it's bureaucratic inertia that drives (and protects) the vast bulk of that spending. Rather than targeted election campaign promises.

Why does this matter? Because we then get yet more badly designed and inappropriate roads which encourage more non-car hostile suburbs; less public transport and basically no spend on other transport options. Never mind things like schools (which have to follow the new dormitory suburbs) or hospitals (which must then have more beds for the car accident victims and the chronically obese).

After now two decades of cycling seriously again (and increasingly using other non-private-car options) and of looking at the drivers for "the problems" I have come to the conclusion that most cycling issues are caused by bad or absent planning. It's certainly not helped by the tragic and ongoing reduction in serious journalism and civil discussion.

The OP's thread title was chosen to be polemic. Unfortunately it's as supported by evidence or considered thought as the average shockjock's rant.

-1 from me.

[Scintilla]

2778 sq k’s? Pfft

Melbourne 9,992 sq k’s

Note population as well, for comparison.

the Copenhagen Metropolitan Region had close to 2.4 million inhabitants in 2005[1][2], which is the largest metropolitan area of any Scandinavian city.

Copenhagen = 8639 people per sq km
Melbourne = 4903 people per sq km.

The difference begins to look a mite less stark.

[fat and old]

The OP's thread title was chosen to be polemic. Unfortunately it's as supported by evidence or considered thought as the average shockjock's rant.

-1 from me.

Blame the government all you want, as per others. Fact is there's no incentive for them to do anything. They're simply giving the people what they want.

[Mububban]

It's well documented that the kernel that caused such a system in The Netherlands was the Stop the Child Murder campaign.

It took the Dutch a decade to effect change. A well organised, strongly led campaign with an evocative centre piece...child deaths. Why is that going to happen here? How?

I don't believe kids are getting killed, so it's "only" adults killing other adults. And thinking like a typical Aussie car loving drongo, "those adult cyclists shouldn't be on the road in the first place."

People have some level of innate sympathy for kids, but sympathy and care for other random adults seems to be at an all time low. I must say I do get less hate (not none, but less) while riding now than when I used to cycle commute regularly say 15 years ago. However I honestly don't know if we'll ever get to the Dutch tipping point scenario purely through adult deaths and injuries.

I just don't know....at least in WA my kids will be allowed to ride on footpaths even as they age beyond 16 years. Lacking proper cycling infrastructure, this is better than them being on the roads.

[g-boaf]

It's well documented that the kernel that caused such a system in The Netherlands was the Stop the Child Murder campaign.

It took the Dutch a decade to effect change. A well organised, strongly led campaign with an evocative centre piece...child deaths. Why is that going to happen here? How?

I don't believe kids are getting killed, so it's "only" adults killing other adults. And thinking like a typical Aussie car loving drongo, "those adult cyclists shouldn't be on the road in the first place."

People have some level of innate sympathy for kids,

No they don't. I've been out riding with some juniors from our club and some old people come rushing up from behind and blasting away on the horn, only to make a right turn perhaps 50 metres further down the road. If they do that to kids, what hope do the rest of us have?

They have innate sympathy for not being held up by anything or anyone.

The only way to change things here is to have a really aggressive law enforcement on bad driving behaviour so they are terrified of the consequences of doing the wrong thing. That might make them more cautious. Most people are good, only a few do the wrong thing.

[Jmuzz]

Amsterdam 219.3km2, Copenhagen 88.25km2, Perth 6418km2.
The whole of Oz cities can not be compared. Start with a radius say 5km around the cbd can be though.

Melbourne CBD and inner suburbs (basically that 5km radius) seems to be coming along very nicely, especially when combined with the free CBD trams which encourages public transport too.

It's a very different world than Sydney.
Sydney CBD does have thinner twisting illogical roads and issues with cross city traffic trying to cut through the CBD. So does have a harder job making it work than Melbourne.
But Melbourne is clearly putting much more effort into dedicated bike lanes and parking bars.

[human909]

Saw this headline today. I haven't read the article because it is paywalled.

MUM TOO SCARED TO CROSS BUSY STUD RD
MOTHER-OF-TWO Lana Formoso lives just 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium but drives there because it’s too dangerous to cross busy Stud Road.A DANDENONG North mother-of-two, who lives 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium, said she now drives there

We design our suburbs around cars. It is sad. I currently work near Stud road and now know the road reasonably well. I also saw an old lady struggling to cross it at an uncontrolled point this week. Oddly enough it is actually serviced by fairly good bike paths especially considering that the bike path building began in 1977! But the urban landscape is sparse with 80kph and 70kph roads separating vast distances between amenities. The bicycle paths generally are crossed by sliplanes and fast moving cars that give no thought for cyclists.

I believe il Padrone knows more and often used to mention it: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=91701&p=1369226&hi ... x#p1369226

There isn't much good having cycling infrastructure if the roads are hostile (aka high speed) and there is nowhere to actually ride to.

[Thoglette]

The OP's thread title was chosen to be polemic. Unfortunately it's as supported by evidence or considered thought as the average shockjock's rant.

Blame the government all you want, as per others. Fact is there's no incentive for them to do anything. They're simply giving the people what they want.

I'm missing something: how does this comment of yours support your choice of thread title? If you'd said "whinging Aussies too lazy to get the Copenhagen they want" then I'd be agreeing.
IE. I don't believe there's any support for the use of the word "myth" in your title. Myth implies impossibility. As opposed to, say, unlikely or difficult. Your comment above supports the argument that it's not impossible but rather that we, collectively, are too bloody slack and/or distracted.

[fat and old]

The OP's thread title was chosen to be polemic. Unfortunately it's as supported by evidence or considered thought as the average shockjock's rant.

Blame the government all you want, as per others. Fact is there's no incentive for them to do anything. They're simply giving the people what they want.

I'm missing something: how does this comment of yours support your choice of thread title? If you'd said "whinging Aussies too lazy to get the Copenhagen they want" then I'd be agreeing.
IE. I don't believe there's any support for the use of the word "myth" in your title. Myth implies impossibility. As opposed to, say, unlikely or difficult. Your comment above supports the argument that it's not impossible but rather that we, collectively, are too bloody slack and/or distracted.

Well then, I guess being a smarty pants and trying to sound intelligent backfired aye?

Yes, damn straight that's what I'm saying. Whinging Aussies....on all sides of the fence....are too lazy to get change when they want it. I'd honestly thought that was obvious. Aussies whinging about the government. Aussies whinging that The Netherlands can do it so why can't we. Aussies whinging about everything there is, but not actually prepared to do the hard yards and get that change!

I disagree on the use of the word myth. Myth does not imply impossible in the context I used. It implies a fantasy. The fantasy that the lucky country will do something; anything at all; without a tragedy on the scale that was occuring in Holland when the protests began. Yet the comments keep coming....be like Holland. Ok then, lets be like Holland. Guerilla tactics marking up bike lanes. Barricade the local streets. Confront Parliament.

Nahhhhhh, lets make a Facebook page and post vids and sook. Bah. Until I see action, don't tell me to be like Holland. Walk the walk.