should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?

[RonK]

Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.

Not so - with appropriate gearing as you would expect a cargo bike to be equipped they will cope with any hill you can throw at them. My e-mtb climbs 25% grades with absolute ease.

Physics dictates that 250W would propel a 150 kg (bike + rider + load) cargo bike at about 2.3 km/hr up a 25% gradient. If the rider added an additional 150W then you might get up to almost 3.8 km/hr.

Speed is irrelevant - can you ride an unassisted 150kg bike up a 25% grade?

[AUbicycles]

Must be the places you frequent

Yes... Europe.
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.


@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.

I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.

Here is a short 35s promotional video of Höll, it gives you a bit of a feel for it and getting a cargo bike up, even with a 250watt motor, would be a fluke.

[Jmuzz]

Yep - well if that's the case then I'm definitely out because there is no way I can get a nearly 40kg cargo bike up the hills near me. Not without walking anyway. Let alone with stuff in one.

40kg is really stretching the limits of what should be considered a bicycle.

Let's put 50kg in it plus a 120kg large low fitness rider. Can that monster get down the same hill safely? A lot of automotive engineers would probably say the brakes and tyre speed@load rating do not pass and such a vehicle should be subject to motorcycle standards regardless of power.

The test should be "can the average person do it faster than the motor?"
No they probably can't, they can probably do 250w for about 20 seconds before literally collapsing.
When someone is fitter then they get a 250w bonus.

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think a light motorcycle category is appropriate, a halfway point between unregulated bicycle and redtape of a full motor vehicle.
Only the government won't create the category.

Right now there is really nothing stopping a 2kw cargo bike certifying as a motorcycle.
The helmet is the biggest problem which does sort of kill it, Australian motorcycle standard severely restricts ventilation because we have to be able to survive crashing into metal spikes apparently.
Otherwise it's just the financial costs of the ADR certification, registration and CTP system and hassles of a license.

[RonK]

At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.

I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.

Here is a short 35s promotional video of Höll, it gives you a bit of a feel for it and getting a cargo bike up, even with a 250watt motor, would be a fluke.

Only 25%? Vittorio Brumotti rode the Lion’s Back in Moab, Utah - way steeper.

But easy on an e-mtb. For hard, try 75%.

[Comedian]

Yep - well if that's the case then I'm definitely out because there is no way I can get a nearly 40kg cargo bike up the hills near me. Not without walking anyway. Let alone with stuff in one.

40kg is really stretching the limits of what should be considered a bicycle.

Let's put 50kg in it plus a 120kg large low fitness rider. Can that monster get down the same hill safely? A lot of automotive engineers would probably say the brakes and tyre speed@load rating do not pass and such a vehicle should be subject to motorcycle standards regardless of power.

The test should be "can the average person do it faster than the motor?"
No they probably can't, they can probably do 250w for about 20 seconds before literally collapsing.
When someone is fitter then they get a 250w bonus.

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think a light motorcycle category is appropriate, a halfway point between unregulated bicycle and redtape of a full motor vehicle.
Only the government won't create the category.

Right now there is really nothing stopping a 2kw cargo bike certifying as a motorcycle.
The helmet is the biggest problem which does sort of kill it, Australian motorcycle standard severely restricts ventilation because we have to be able to survive crashing into metal spikes apparently.
Otherwise it's just the financial costs of the ADR certification, registration and CTP system and hassles of a license.

This is the bike I'd like for around home.

http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/

Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).

Our hill isn't that big. I think it's probably 10-12% for maybe 100m. Depending on which way there is a 15% pinch that requires some serious rider input on the Gazelle electric.

It's not far but there is no way around it (the hill) unfortunately.

[RonK]

This is the bike I'd like for around home.

http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/

Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).

This may be a more versatile family car replacement choice - used as the service bike for CityCycles.


Butchers and Bicycles MK1-E

[Comedian]

This is the bike I'd like for around home.

http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/

Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).

This may be a more versatile family car replacement choice - used as the service bike for CityCycles.


Butchers and Bicycles MK1-E

I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!

[RobertL]

I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!

It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.

[Comedian]

I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!

It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.

I actually think TWC has been there far longer than that. Originally they were a frame manufacturer. I do know the owner and most of the people there. They are real people trying to make a living. My experience with them has been excellent.

I'm afraid I can't really comment on the re-branding. Some of the manufacturers allow shops to have a fair latitude over what they do. Giant isn't one of those. If you sell Giant you're all in. Fortunately they are the largest manufacturer in the world so have enough product to cover most things well. If you don't like it you go somewhere else. I believe Giant the company own some of the stores too so perhaps we should be glad there are still independently owned Giant shops.

Personally i've got far more of a problem with chain stores like 99 bikes...

[RobertL]

I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!

It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.

I actually think TWC has been there far longer than that. Originally they were a frame manufacturer. I do know the owner and most of the people there. They are real people trying to make a living. My experience with them has been excellent.

I'm afraid I can't really comment on the re-branding. Some of the manufacturers allow shops to have a fair latitude over what they do. Giant isn't one of those. If you sell Giant you're all in. Fortunately they are the largest manufacturer in the world so have enough product to cover most things well. If you don't like it you go somewhere else. I believe Giant the company own some of the stores too so perhaps we should be glad there are still independently owned Giant shops.

Personally i've got far more of a problem with chain stores like 99 bikes...

Yeah - all my experiences with TWC have been great. I just don't like Giant taking over the naming like they have.

[Scintilla]

This should be in the motorbike thread.

E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.

[Scintilla]

Must be the places you frequent

Yes... Europe.
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.


@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.

I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.

34% climb...... fully loaded!

[biker jk]

This should be in the motorbike thread.

E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.

The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.

[fat and old]

Must be the places you frequent

Yes... Europe.
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.


@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.

I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.

34% climb...... fully loaded!

Fully loaded....and walking!!!!! Hahaha, I thought it was fair dinkum for a while.

[Comedian]

This should be in the motorbike thread.

E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.

The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.

Lucky someone has that answered!

https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/st ... 52-bomber/

[AUbicycles]

Lucky someone has that answered!

Lucky for that company and their buyers... but unlucky for every single ebike retailer and buyer. Stealth petitioned the government to remove the tariff concession so every single imported ebike is now more expensive. Could be a fair approach if there was a local ebike manufacturing industry who were at a competitive disadvantage or if Stealth actually genuinely competed in this pedelec segment.... but no.

[RonK]

Lucky someone has that answered!

Lucky for that company and their buyers... but unlucky for every single ebike retailer and buyer. Stealth petitioned the government to remove the tariff concession so every single imported ebike is now more expensive. Could be a fair approach if there was a local ebike manufacturing industry who were at a competitive disadvantage or if Stealth actually genuinely competed in this pedelec segment.... but no.

I thought that was rejected.

[AUbicycles]

Hadn't heard of this.

There was also a request to remove the tarif concession for regular bikes but following a big backlash, this was not removed.

[Jmuzz]

I'm pretty sure that e-bike tax was thrown out.
But I won't ever be forgetting the company who was behind it for their own selfish reasons.

[JitterBugs]

25kmh is a bit low.

But there does need to be a limit for safety on shared pedestrian/cycle ways.

I'd say 35/40kmh would be about right.

[familyguy]

There was a recent thread on a page (can't recall where it was now) with people carrying on about their average on the local MTB trails of was anything from 23-28 miles per hour on a bike weighing "low 40" (pounds). The speed differential alone is a problem. If you come across someone on a trail and you're pushing 38km/h on a 22kg bike, the chances of stopping before ramming into the back of them might be somewhat limited by physics.

[Thoglette]

25kmh is a bit low.

Again, Cobblers.

These are "power assisted bicycles", not "e-bikes".

25koh is already at the top end of what a casual cyclist will be doing (more likely 15 to 20kph).

As someone who shares the local shared paths with legal PACs (and a number of unregistered electric motorcycles0 I can assure you that the current legal bicycles are quicker than the vast majority of cyclists.

PACS are intended to be equivalent to normal cycling.

If you want to ride an e-scooter, get it registered as such. If you think your PAC is too slow, HTFU and pedal.

Now I have a lot of sympathy for scooter users who are (notionally) limited to a speed that makes most roads problematic to use. But that's a whole different conversation.

[Scintilla]

This should be in the motorbike thread.

E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.

The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.

OP does not understand the principles involved in e-bike "speed limits". He CAN do 80 kmh on any e-bike....... if he has the legs for it, or down a big hill!!

[Scintilla]

These are "power assisted bicycles", not "e-bikes".

25koh is already at the top end of what a casual cyclist will be doing (more likely 15 to 20kph).

Power-assisted bicycles (PABs) are a very different thing to e-bikes and they have no motor-assist limit. You can readily ride one of these at perhaps 40kmh+. Just that your battery may not last very long.

E-bikes have a power cut-out at 25 kmh (if they are legally configured), and they may be ridden at a faster speed if the rider is able to push, or on any descent. They must also have an automatic throttle and only give power-assistance when the rider is actually pedalling, or low-speed power for starting off or walk-assist.

PABs have a power output of 200W max; e-bikes can be up to 250W. These maximums allow them to be still legally classed as bicycles.

[Scintilla]

E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.

The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.

Lucky someone has that answered!

https://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/st ... 52-bomber/

Stealth's "e-bikes" are NOT legal as 'bicycles' in Australia, at least on the roads, with a 2000W power outout. They *might* be OK riding in off-road scenarios - though the definition of 'road-related areas' may bring them unstuck as most MTB trails would meet this. Otherwise you can ride them anywhere on private lands with owner's permission.