Speed is irrelevant - can you ride an unassisted 150kg bike up a 25% grade?uart wrote:Physics dictates that 250W would propel a 150 kg (bike + rider + load) cargo bike at about 2.3 km/hr up a 25% gradient. If the rider added an additional 150W then you might get up to almost 3.8 km/hr.RonK wrote:Not so - with appropriate gearing as you would expect a cargo bike to be equipped they will cope with any hill you can throw at them. My e-mtb climbs 25% grades with absolute ease.Comedian wrote:Also - the 250w limit also causes problems for cargo bikes in hilly areas. Where I live it's bloody hilly and for a good part of the year bloody hot. our 250w gazelle can only just get up the hills. A cargo bike with some stuff would be no chance.
should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RonK » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:30 pm
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby AUbicycles » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:21 pm
Yes... Europe.RonK wrote:Must be the places you frequent
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.
@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.
I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.
Here is a short 35s promotional video of Höll, it gives you a bit of a feel for it and getting a cargo bike up, even with a 250watt motor, would be a fluke.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Jmuzz » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:13 am
40kg is really stretching the limits of what should be considered a bicycle.Comedian wrote: Yep - well if that's the case then I'm definitely out because there is no way I can get a nearly 40kg cargo bike up the hills near me. Not without walking anyway. Let alone with stuff in one.
Let's put 50kg in it plus a 120kg large low fitness rider. Can that monster get down the same hill safely? A lot of automotive engineers would probably say the brakes and tyre speed@load rating do not pass and such a vehicle should be subject to motorcycle standards regardless of power.
The test should be "can the average person do it faster than the motor?"
No they probably can't, they can probably do 250w for about 20 seconds before literally collapsing.
When someone is fitter then they get a 250w bonus.
I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think a light motorcycle category is appropriate, a halfway point between unregulated bicycle and redtape of a full motor vehicle.
Only the government won't create the category.
Right now there is really nothing stopping a 2kw cargo bike certifying as a motorcycle.
The helmet is the biggest problem which does sort of kill it, Australian motorcycle standard severely restricts ventilation because we have to be able to survive crashing into metal spikes apparently.
Otherwise it's just the financial costs of the ADR certification, registration and CTP system and hassles of a license.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RonK » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:31 am
Only 25%? Vittorio Brumotti rode the Lion’s Back in Moab, Utah - way steeper.AUbicycles wrote:At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.
I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.
Here is a short 35s promotional video of Höll, it gives you a bit of a feel for it and getting a cargo bike up, even with a 250watt motor, would be a fluke.
But easy on an e-mtb. For hard, try 75%.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Comedian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:43 pm
This is the bike I'd like for around home.Jmuzz wrote:40kg is really stretching the limits of what should be considered a bicycle.Comedian wrote: Yep - well if that's the case then I'm definitely out because there is no way I can get a nearly 40kg cargo bike up the hills near me. Not without walking anyway. Let alone with stuff in one.
Let's put 50kg in it plus a 120kg large low fitness rider. Can that monster get down the same hill safely? A lot of automotive engineers would probably say the brakes and tyre speed@load rating do not pass and such a vehicle should be subject to motorcycle standards regardless of power.
The test should be "can the average person do it faster than the motor?"
No they probably can't, they can probably do 250w for about 20 seconds before literally collapsing.
When someone is fitter then they get a 250w bonus.
I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think a light motorcycle category is appropriate, a halfway point between unregulated bicycle and redtape of a full motor vehicle.
Only the government won't create the category.
Right now there is really nothing stopping a 2kw cargo bike certifying as a motorcycle.
The helmet is the biggest problem which does sort of kill it, Australian motorcycle standard severely restricts ventilation because we have to be able to survive crashing into metal spikes apparently.
Otherwise it's just the financial costs of the ADR certification, registration and CTP system and hassles of a license.
http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/
Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).
Our hill isn't that big. I think it's probably 10-12% for maybe 100m. Depending on which way there is a 15% pinch that requires some serious rider input on the Gazelle electric.
It's not far but there is no way around it (the hill) unfortunately.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RonK » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:22 pm
This may be a more versatile family car replacement choice - used as the service bike for CityCycles.Comedian wrote:This is the bike I'd like for around home.
http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/
Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).
Butchers and Bicycles MK1-E
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Comedian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:46 pm
I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!RonK wrote:This may be a more versatile family car replacement choice - used as the service bike for CityCycles.Comedian wrote:This is the bike I'd like for around home.
http://dutchcargobike.com.au/product/workcycles-kr8/
Certified for 80kg in the basket and 50 on the rear. If I had one of these puppies I would never need to drive to the shops (or even bunnings again).
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RobertL » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:59 am
It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.Comedian wrote: I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Comedian » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:06 pm
I actually think TWC has been there far longer than that. Originally they were a frame manufacturer. I do know the owner and most of the people there. They are real people trying to make a living. My experience with them has been excellent.RobertL wrote:It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.Comedian wrote: I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!
I'm afraid I can't really comment on the re-branding. Some of the manufacturers allow shops to have a fair latitude over what they do. Giant isn't one of those. If you sell Giant you're all in. Fortunately they are the largest manufacturer in the world so have enough product to cover most things well. If you don't like it you go somewhere else. I believe Giant the company own some of the stores too so perhaps we should be glad there are still independently owned Giant shops.
Personally i've got far more of a problem with chain stores like 99 bikes...
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RobertL » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:44 pm
Yeah - all my experiences with TWC have been great. I just don't like Giant taking over the naming like they have.Comedian wrote:I actually think TWC has been there far longer than that. Originally they were a frame manufacturer. I do know the owner and most of the people there. They are real people trying to make a living. My experience with them has been excellent.RobertL wrote:It saddens me that Tom Wallace Cycles, which has been there since the 1970s, has now been rebranded as Giant Lutwyche. I don't like the way that the big manufacturers are doing this.Comedian wrote: I've seen them. Very cool! And Tom Wallace is listed as a dealer!
I'm afraid I can't really comment on the re-branding. Some of the manufacturers allow shops to have a fair latitude over what they do. Giant isn't one of those. If you sell Giant you're all in. Fortunately they are the largest manufacturer in the world so have enough product to cover most things well. If you don't like it you go somewhere else. I believe Giant the company own some of the stores too so perhaps we should be glad there are still independently owned Giant shops.
Personally i've got far more of a problem with chain stores like 99 bikes...
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Scintilla » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:30 pm
E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Scintilla » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:34 pm
34% climb...... fully loaded!AUbicycles wrote:Yes... Europe.RonK wrote:Must be the places you frequent
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.
@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.
I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby biker jk » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:25 pm
The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.Scintilla wrote:E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby fat and old » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:26 pm
Fully loaded....and walking!!!!! Hahaha, I thought it was fair dinkum for a while.Scintilla wrote:34% climb...... fully loaded!AUbicycles wrote:Yes... Europe.RonK wrote:Must be the places you frequent
The local bike shop has naturally transitioned to primarily selling e-bikes so instead of 1000 Euro average they do 4000 Euro for an average sale... and the customers keep coming. eMTB is big, but the other styles are more regular / visible.
@uart - do you know how steep 25% is?
At the UCI World Championships in Austria this year ... i.e. best road racers in the world, there was a steep section over 3km called Höll and inside that.. some sections that were over 20%. Your average road rider would walk and it takes some serious skill, experience and form to be able to do this.
I had a local hill with a short 23% incline and it took me a a while to be able to complete the entire climb (average 15% I think over about 1km) without stopping and consider myself a bit of a hill climber.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Comedian » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:57 pm
Lucky someone has that answered!biker jk wrote:The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.Scintilla wrote:E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby AUbicycles » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:17 pm
Lucky for that company and their buyers... but unlucky for every single ebike retailer and buyer. Stealth petitioned the government to remove the tariff concession so every single imported ebike is now more expensive. Could be a fair approach if there was a local ebike manufacturing industry who were at a competitive disadvantage or if Stealth actually genuinely competed in this pedelec segment.... but no.Comedian wrote:Lucky someone has that answered!
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby RonK » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:22 pm
I thought that was rejected.AUbicycles wrote:Lucky for that company and their buyers... but unlucky for every single ebike retailer and buyer. Stealth petitioned the government to remove the tariff concession so every single imported ebike is now more expensive. Could be a fair approach if there was a local ebike manufacturing industry who were at a competitive disadvantage or if Stealth actually genuinely competed in this pedelec segment.... but no.Comedian wrote:Lucky someone has that answered!
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby AUbicycles » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:26 pm
There was also a request to remove the tarif concession for regular bikes but following a big backlash, this was not removed.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Jmuzz » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:07 pm
But I won't ever be forgetting the company who was behind it for their own selfish reasons.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby JitterBugs » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:31 am
But there does need to be a limit for safety on shared pedestrian/cycle ways.
I'd say 35/40kmh would be about right.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby familyguy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:55 am
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:17 am
Again, Cobblers.JitterBugs wrote:25kmh is a bit low.
These are "power assisted bicycles", not "e-bikes".
25koh is already at the top end of what a casual cyclist will be doing (more likely 15 to 20kph).
As someone who shares the local shared paths with legal PACs (and a number of unregistered electric motorcycles0 I can assure you that the current legal bicycles are quicker than the vast majority of cyclists.
PACS are intended to be equivalent to normal cycling.
If you want to ride an e-scooter, get it registered as such. If you think your PAC is too slow, HTFU and pedal.
Now I have a lot of sympathy for scooter users who are (notionally) limited to a speed that makes most roads problematic to use. But that's a whole different conversation.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Scintilla » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:05 am
OP does not understand the principles involved in e-bike "speed limits". He CAN do 80 kmh on any e-bike....... if he has the legs for it, or down a big hill!!biker jk wrote:The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.Scintilla wrote:E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.biker jk wrote:This should be in the motorbike thread.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Scintilla » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:12 am
Power-assisted bicycles (PABs) are a very different thing to e-bikes and they have no motor-assist limit. You can readily ride one of these at perhaps 40kmh+. Just that your battery may not last very long.Thoglette wrote:These are "power assisted bicycles", not "e-bikes".
25koh is already at the top end of what a casual cyclist will be doing (more likely 15 to 20kph).
E-bikes have a power cut-out at 25 kmh (if they are legally configured), and they may be ridden at a faster speed if the rider is able to push, or on any descent. They must also have an automatic throttle and only give power-assistance when the rider is actually pedalling, or low-speed power for starting off or walk-assist.
PABs have a power output of 200W max; e-bikes can be up to 250W. These maximums allow them to be still legally classed as bicycles.
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Re: should ebike speed be limited to just 25 km/h and should pedal assist be the only legal one?
Postby Scintilla » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:19 am
Stealth's "e-bikes" are NOT legal as 'bicycles' in Australia, at least on the roads, with a 2000W power outout. They *might* be OK riding in off-road scenarios - though the definition of 'road-related areas' may bring them unstuck as most MTB trails would meet this. Otherwise you can ride them anywhere on private lands with owner's permission.Comedian wrote:Lucky someone has that answered!biker jk wrote:The op wanted to do 80kmh with a motor on two wheels. That's a motorbike.Scintilla wrote: E-bikes are bicycles, not motorbikes.
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