Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:49 pm

MichaelB wrote:And you can’t get a trailer full of rubbish to the dump either, but what has that got to do with speed limiters ?
Let me join the dots for those of you playing at home.
1. we have poor suburb design and lousy public transport.
=>
2. one needs to drive a car for most transport purposes (especially if you're not a white collar worker commuting to the CBD from a leafy suburb)
=>
3. we've got heavier traffic than we should have; with drivers who might just not get a licence in some parts of the world (or if Derny set the test :D ) or have had it taken off them (E license or just none)
=>
4. a big accident prone mess.

One effective mitigation is to slow the traffic down.

In the case of the clueless, cocksure or criminal, speed limiters might be need applied to achieve this. (Esp. in the absence of actual policing.)

Hence the thread.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 21454
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:33 pm

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Perhaps it's time to make driving dangerous again?
How is making cars dangerously unsafe going to help protect riders from motorists intent on threatening the safety of cyclists (eg, close passes, deliberately hitting riders, etc)? An unsafe car can do all those things just as well as a safe one can.
I thought this was the "speed limit and limiters" thread, not the "psychotic bastard" thread? Image

While there's a cross over both problems can be mitigated with: road/suburb design; public transport; regulation and education & enforcement. All of which are mostly missing in Australia.
Sorry to side track you, but elsewhere people drive safe cars and have no problems keeping to speed limits, and no problems paying attention to the what is happening around them.

Do you really expect car makers to back track on lord knows how many years of safety improvements just because some people on the internets says so? Are we going to go back to glass that lacerates you if it breaks, non-padded dash designs, non-collapsing steering columns, cars that crumple to nothing in any accident? Should we also add dangerous tyres, poor suspension tuning and bad brakes too? And for giggles, make the car have such bad balance that any kind of braking lightens the back of the car and makes it nervous and easy to spin, or even lifts the rear wheels off the ground in emergency braking. Those all fall under the definition of your 'unsafe', but even though I am a bike rider who does a lot of riding (commuting too) on the road, I don't want these more unsafe cars. I want to know that the car beside me is basically safe, stable and I don't have to worry about it spinning unpredictably into me, or not being able to stop because the brakes are rubbish.

Yeah, I'll use that head scratch smiley too I think...

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Thoglette » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:18 pm

g-boaf wrote:Sorry to side track you, but elsewhere people drive safe cars and have no problems keeping to speed limits, and no problems paying attention to the what is happening around them.
Agreed.
Now walk backwards through my last post, and compare those "elsewheres" with the situation here. Enforcement, training, other transport options, better city and road/regulation design.

But you're mixing your oranges and apples again. And I'll have to find a "humour as a teaching device" emoji. :-)

The point of BSYNC' s post is to highlight the increasing disconnect between the lackadaisical attitudes of anglophone drivers and the increasingly lethal effect of modern cars and anglophone suburb, road and rule designs. Have I mentioned schlockjocks yet?
g-boaf wrote:Do you really expect car makers to back track on lord knows how many years of safety improvements
God no, they provide a far too useful barrier to new market entrants. There's no way in hell the car makers want less regulations.

I'll pick specifically on ADR88 which requires Electronic Stability Control. That's right: pretty much every car ever made in the 20th century is now illegal to sell new in Australia. And ESC requires a pile of software all with it's own set of regulations. All of which need type testing.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Tamiya
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:15 am

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Tamiya » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:13 am

Thoglette wrote: I'll pick specifically on ADR88 which requires Electronic Stability Control. That's right: pretty much every car ever made in the 20th century is now illegal to sell new in Australia. And ESC requires a pile of software all with it's own set of regulations. All of which need type testing.
haha too true on all that jazz

Supposedly our good German friends at Porsche recently rediscovered a brandnew 993 shell unused in the storeroom... so they built it up with all new spare parts & panels. A classic Carrera, brand spanking new.

But regulations have moved on in 25yrs, that brand newly built car cannot be registered today for road use as it don't pass today's emissions & safety regulations etc etc

User avatar
MichaelB
Posts: 14850
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby MichaelB » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:17 am

This is getting like the MHL thread.

I’m out

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Thoglette » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:34 am

MichaelB wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:
There is also talk about GPS speed limiters or road limiters, so whenever you entyer a road, your speed limit will be adjusted to what the roads allow to.
And that won't happen. How doe you retrofit ? You can't.
If you've worked on a large industrial or construction site you'll have a vehicle fitted with IVMS. Fitting is less than $2K in quantity. They are very effective in both warning of excessive speed and in monitoring driver behaviour. I'm astounded that the insurance industry isn't already pushing hard for them. May be the existing "black box" gets them out of enough claims as it is.
MichaelB wrote: I still get back to self control. If you are incapable, you shouldn't drive. That doesn't stop people, but getting people to rely on someone/something else to control it for them is just dumb.
Well, agreed to a point. Then we need alternatives for those who shouldn't drive.

I'm with you that speed limiters are not a panacea, they are only one option. Which should be tried only once existing regulations have been tried and shown to fail. Right now, we don't even try to manage driver behaviour - I see non-fixed speed cameras maybe once a month. If we wanted speed limits "to work" we'd need people to be going through two or three a day, in all sorts of "random" locations.

Further, limiters would only work if the speed limits were set appropriately. Which they quite clearly are not.

Sorry you're leaving
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Neddysmith
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:10 am

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Neddysmith » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:27 am

Tamiya wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:here as the switch is pointing towards 40, the vehicle cannot go beyond 40 km/h. So there would be no problem for people who can't control their feet and erases the need to switch views between the speedometer at the dashboard and windscreen.

Could this be implemented in Australia so everybody is safer?
If you're incapable of staying IN CONTROL of your vehicle at all times you shouldn't be licensed to drive.

Can't get any simpler than that.
No more needs to be said......

opik_bidin
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby opik_bidin » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:51 pm

Turns out the tech has been there, and with this, probably we would see GPS speed limiters next year

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/europea ... y-car.html

European cars may soon have "Intelligent Speed Assistance." Should every car have this? (Survey)

Image
When you try and go too fast it says, "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."

Where I live there is outrage that a guy driving at almost a hundred km/hr just got off after a 17-year-old was hit and killed in a 60 km/hr zone because, according to the judge, his driving "does not depart in a marked way from a standard of care expected in this situation." And after another child gets killed, the Globe and Mail editorializes that To save lives in Toronto, slow down the vehicles.

...the simple reality is that lower speed limits save lives. Mr. [Mayor] Tory knows this: The Vision Zero initiative includes lower limits in school zones and areas inhabited by older citizens... The laws of physics suggest that many of the victims are being struck by vehicles that are not travelling at the safe posted speeds – a supposition that is especially valid when the victim is a child near his school.

Image
European Transport Safety Council/Public Domain
This is a problem all over the world, as children are killed by speeding cars. And in Europe, they may finally deal with the problem by making what they call Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA) mandatory on all new cars. It's not like those dumb speed limiters that have been so controversial; like they say, it is intelligent.

Antonio Avenoso, Executive Director of the European Transport Safety Council, says that Intelligent Speed Assistance could be as important for saving kids lives as the seatbelt. From the press release:

Not a day goes by without a politician or a carmaker promising that autonomous cars will solve the road safety problem. But if that day comes, it will take decades. By 2030 perhaps there will already be a few million automated cars on the world’s roads, compared to more than a billion other vehicles, many of which will be those leaving factories this year. There is a grave risk that governments ignore the huge safety benefits that can be achieved by installing proven driver assistance technologies today.

Image
European Transport Safety Council/Public Domain
ISA works by linking speed limit recognition cameras and GPS data to let the driver know the speed limit and if the driver tries to go faster: "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." The car just won't go over the speed limit, except for short bursts when passing after depressing the accelerator pedal down hard to temporarily disable the system. Ford has put it in a few cars in the UK where there are lots of speed cameras, and notes:

Drivers are not always conscious of speeding and sometimes only becoming aware they were going too fast when they receive a fine in the mail or are pulled over by law enforcement,” said Stefan Kappes, active safety supervisor, Ford of Europe. “Intelligent Speed Limiter can remove one of the stresses of driving, helping ensure customers remain within the legal speed limit.”

Image
Dodge Demon at Canadian Auto Show/ Lloyd Alter/CC BY 2.0
I somehow cannot see the someone from Ford in North America saying that; people here like big cars that go fast and I suspect would think that Intelligent Speed Assistance was a pretty dumb idea. When I suggested that the 840 HP Dodge Demon be banned, I got called every name in the book. It is no doubt a controversial idea, but look at the benefits, according to the ETSC:

ISA is probably the single most effective new vehicle safety technology currently available in terms of its life-saving potential. A study for the European Commission found the other main positive impacts include: encouraging walking and cycling due to increased perceived safety of cars vis-à-vis vulnerable road users, a traffic calming effect, reductions in insurance costs, higher fuel efficiency and reduced CO2 emissions. Tackling excessive speed is fundamental to reducing the figure of 26,000 road deaths every year in Europe. With mass adoption and use, ISA is expected to reduce collisions by 30% and deaths by 20%.

Image
European Transport Safety Council/Public Domain
Really, slower cars, safer streets, less pollution -- I can't think of a single reason why anyone would object to this, can you? The ETSC claims that 78 percent of road users think it is a fine idea. What about you?

brumby33
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Albury NSW on the mighty Murray River

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby brumby33 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:55 pm

I for one would hate the situation where in my car I can't overtake a B Double doing 100kph where i'm restricted to similar.
That would suck!!
"ya gotta hold ya mouth right"

VWR Patagonia 2017
2003 Diamondback Sorrento Sport MTB

fat and old
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:15 pm

I’m honestly struggling with the idea that we should make diving a car easier for morons. If it’s good enough to expect a driver to give us a meter, or not left hook us, or not just plain drive out in front of us how is this any good? A decision needs to be made on how stupid you need to be to lose the privilege of driving, and then acted upon.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Thoglette » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:28 pm

brumby33 wrote:I for one would hate the situation where in my car I can't overtake a B Double doing 100kph where i'm restricted to similar.
That would suck!!
Why? Why do you need to overtake the B double when it's already doing the speed limit ????

(There's got to be better examples than that)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

User avatar
Derny Driver
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm
Location: Wollongong

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:33 pm

opik_bidin wrote: The ETSC claims that 78 percent of road users think it is a fine idea. What about you?
nah. Sorry man. Im not drinking the KoolAid.

This is like the "bicycle helmets save lives". Barking up the wrong tree.

User avatar
Derny Driver
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm
Location: Wollongong

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:36 pm

fat and old wrote: A decision needs to be made on how stupid you need to be to lose the privilege of driving, and then acted upon.
Well apparently not knowing your accelerator pedal from you brake pedal is perfectly acceptable.
Driving your car through the brick wall of someones residence and parking it in their lounge room is a common driving mistake.

fat and old
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:10 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
fat and old wrote: A decision needs to be made on how stupid you need to be to lose the privilege of driving, and then acted upon.
Well apparently not knowing your accelerator pedal from you brake pedal is perfectly acceptable.
Driving your car through the brick wall of someones residence and parking it in their lounge room is a common driving mistake.
Yeah, see....in my book that’s a bit late. :lol:

fat and old
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:12 pm

Thoglette wrote:
brumby33 wrote:I for one would hate the situation where in my car I can't overtake a B Double doing 100kph where i'm restricted to similar.
That would suck!!
Why? Why do you need to overtake the B double when it's already doing the speed limit ????

(There's got to be better examples than that)
Because I’m not comfortable driving at highway speeds without a clear field of vision. Especially if towing. That’s just me.

User avatar
Derny Driver
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm
Location: Wollongong

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:14 pm

fat and old wrote:
Because I’m not comfortable driving at highway speeds without a clear field of vision. Especially if towing. That’s just me.
I just dont drive behind anyone, full stop.
I overtake every car in front of me.
Dont need a reason or an excuse.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Thoglette » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:17 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
fat and old wrote: Because I’m not comfortable driving at highway speeds without a clear field of vision. Especially if towing. That’s just me.
I just dont drive behind anyone, full stop.
I overtake every car in front of me.
Dont need a reason or an excuse.
MGIF!
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

User avatar
Derny Driver
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm
Location: Wollongong

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:29 pm

Thoglette wrote: MGIF!
:D :D :D :D
oh mate I have never laughed so hard.
that is so good (and true)

opik_bidin
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby opik_bidin » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:09 pm

Its coming
https://www.evo.co.uk/news/22326/mandat ... hree-years

Following approval from MEPs, the European Transport Safety Council will impose mandatory speed limiters and data loggers on all new cars

Dubbed Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA), the limiters will use GPS data and/or traffic sign recognition cameras to determine the speed limit of the road a vehicle is travelling on. Engine power will then be limited to match this, preventing the car from exceeding the speed limit. It will be possible to override the system by pushing hard on the throttle, however the system will be engaged every time a car is started.

he push for the new safety tech is down to the supposed reduction it will bring in traffic collisions and lives lost; ETSC says the limiters will reduce collisions by 30 per cent and save 25,000 lives within 15 years of being introduced.

fat and old
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby fat and old » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:35 pm

I will not buy a vehicle (for personal use) that has that tech. At 55 y.o. I'll just buy the last 4wd produced without it and it'll see me through to handing in the license time.

User avatar
baabaa
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby baabaa » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:20 pm

Yup just bring back cars which are no tech but best tech engine and electric powered transport: think minis, mini mokes, Citroën 2CV and 1200 cc 1960 type VW bugs which just dont go fast and if you do they will kill you the driver, will slow down drivers. Besides the boy racer would just over-clock the chips and international hackers would love all to cause havoc in other countries at peak hour.
Would also just load up the highway patrol police around the world to do more stuff like these spot vehicle checks on rego issues which is not what they really could or should be doing


also this, the need to cut greenhouse gas emissions not just on road/ freeway vehicle occupant safety
Will Germany use autobahn speed limits to cut carbon emissions?
https://www.dw.com/en/will-germany-use- ... a-47144296

User avatar
London Boy
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby London Boy » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:50 pm

Tamiya wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:here as the switch is pointing towards 40, the vehicle cannot go beyond 40 km/h. So there would be no problem for people who can't control their feet and erases the need to switch views between the speedometer at the dashboard and windscreen.

Could this be implemented in Australia so everybody is safer?
If you're incapable of staying IN CONTROL of your vehicle at all times you shouldn't be licensed to drive.

Can't get any simpler than that.
Except 'in control' is not a binary quantity. The degree of control anyone can exercise depends on circumstance and skill. For example, anyone can be in complete control on a quiet back road that they know. It is harder to be in control on a busy multi-lane road that you've never driven before, going to a place you've never been.

Reduce the task loading, e.g. by having the car take care of maximum speeds, and you automatically increase the level of control that can be exercised.

The other point is that if limiters exist and nobody is able to speed, nobody will speed. At present, most people have an innate tendency to go with the general flow of traffic. If what we have here in SEQ is a guide, that means most people go 5-10k's above the speed limit. Good luck if you're one of those trying to stick under the limit...

User avatar
London Boy
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby London Boy » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:51 pm

fat and old wrote:I will not buy a vehicle (for personal use) that has that tech. At 55 y.o. I'll just buy the last 4wd produced without it and it'll see me through to handing in the license time.
Assuming that the law doesn't change such that old cars are taken off the roads.

hunch
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:06 am

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby hunch » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:27 am

London Boy wrote:
fat and old wrote:I will not buy a vehicle (for personal use) that has that tech. At 55 y.o. I'll just buy the last 4wd produced without it and it'll see me through to handing in the license time.
Assuming that the law doesn't change such that old cars are taken off the roads.
I'd reckon, won't be long before the older stuff running points and distributor with carby will be consigned to display only, or at best, historic rego with limited mileage. With this mooted, takata airbag thing and stopping you registering the vehicle - for your own good - if they aren't replaced, it wouldn't surprise, a community benefit argument could be put forth regarding old smokey also. :mrgreen:

JPB
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:13 pm
Location: Western Sydney

Re: Speed limit and limiters on cars and trucks

Postby JPB » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 am

The way I see it is that speed to match the conditions and situation is more of an issue.
Situation 1. Anyone that holds a license should know and understand that wet weather reduces tire grip and drive accordingly in the wet. Will the auto speed limiter knock off a few kilometres per hour when you turn the wipers on?
Situation 2. Rural "high speed" single lane road with occasional bends. Will the auto limiter reduce your speed as approach a bend with an advisory speed lower than than the posted speed limit?

I know I am being silly but my point is that better education and use of the driver's cognitive power is required rather than technology limiting our choices. Dumbing down driving is totally the wrong direction.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users