ECR Build, Opinions Sought

[thecaptn]

Hi All,

so I've picked up a bare Surly ECR frame second hand as the starting point for an off road tourer. I'm keeping a lookout for an ECR, Ogre or comparable steel fork and everything else I'll need. While I'm largely looking at second hand parts in order to keep the cost down I'm also hoping to build a very strong, reliable beast and am therefore prepared to have things such as the wheels built or sourced for the purpose. I like the idea of having a stupidly strong wheelset built and suspect that this can be done without blowing the budget. I'm also thinking along the lines of ultra low but conventional gearing and drop bars such as woodchippers. I'm pretty sure that SRAM make a 22-38 double crankset which would work with Apex brifters and BB7R brakes.

I'd very much appreciate anyones 2cents worth on this my first bike build such as an appropriate wheel builder based in Melbourne or alternatives to anything I've come up with myself. I'm a bit excited actually, not so much about the end product as the process of achieving it.

Thanks in advance,
Pete

[rifraf]

Hi Thecaptn,
no strong opinions but good luck with the build.
Hope you post some pics to share your journey.
The ECR wasn't out when I purchased my Ogre which is good as I didn't need any more frame choices to further muddy the waters with regards a purchase decision.
I like the look of the big tired bikes but personally find 2 inch tires in 622 heavy enough for my liking and personal use.
I was initially going to use different tires for different uses but it turns out I'm way too lazy to contemplate swapping tires regularly.
I bought 2.35 Big Apples, 2.00 Supremes and 2.00 Mondials but after trailing the others first and then putting on the Mondials, the Mondials have stayed on the bike.
I love the look and plush ride of the 2.35 Big Apples but theres a lot of undulating roads where I am and the BA's are ponderous on the hillwork.
The Supremes were a breath of fresh air by comparison to ride on but the heavier Mondials seemed to offer a grippier ride over mixed terrain, so have stayed on the bike longest.
Definitely would agree with your leaning towards as low a gearing as possible for trying to turn your hoops with 3"+ tires of Knard flavour.
20 to 22 on the cranks and 36T on the cassette.
Its on the rises and hills where you notice the extra work of the 622 rim/tire combination.
I'm also a believer in 36 spoke (or more if your up to turning them) wheels as the bigger the rim size the weaker the wheel seems to be the theory.
Keep us updated on your ECR build journey and your reasoning/logic of your component choices.
I look forward to hearing more.

[RonK]

I'm also thinking along the lines of ultra low but conventional gearing and drop bars such as woodchippers. I'm pretty sure that SRAM make a 22-38 double crankset which would work with Apex brifters and BB7R brakes.

This setup sounds very much like what we've been discussing here.

If you look at the Fargo build kit you'll get a good idea which components work. The Fargo uses a 42/26t chainset, but it's available in 36/22t and 38/24t.

I dunno how you'll go getting these components second hand though.

[thecaptn]

Thanks rifraf and Ron,

Your comments served to confirm my decisions to date I realised pretty quickly that new components are hard enough to source and second hand are near impossible. I was intending to build an Ogre too but stumbled apon the ECR, I also was hoping to build at least a 40 spoke rear wheel but soon realised that a suitable hub would be hard to come by and that a well built 36 spoke jobbie would be strong enough without costing a fortune. My tyres of choice are also 50-622 Mondials even though I could go bigger with something different, I've been touring on 38-622 Mondials for a while and feel that they work pretty well on all surfaces, are relatively light and robust.

So far I have 46cm Woodchippers, 50-622 Mondials and ECR fork on order and have a new Selle Anitomica saddle ready to go. I've requested a couple of quotes for the wheelset which will have 35mm rims, these I hope should give good lateral strength, an increase in tyre surface area and the potential to mount larger tyres in the future once fat touring tyres become available. I'm finding it hard to source a suitable crankset and headset without paying a small fortune but everything else should be fairly easy to chase up.

Once the parts start coming together I'll post some pictures.
Thanks for the encouragement ,
Pete

[Baalzamon]

Crankset is the hard one, they are always pricey
Headset shouldn't be too bad, but if you have the $$$ now you may be able to save a bit with some xmas sales...

[Aushiker]

Following this thread with some interest ... your posting, thecaptn tweaked my interest and I may actually sell both my Surly Long Haul Trucker and my Giant XTC 2 and build up a ECR ... By the sounds of it the ECR can run smaller "road tyres" should I wish to do some bitumen only type touring again in the future.

Andew

[thecaptn]

I recieved a pretty good quote for a wheelset which included DT Competition Spokes, I thought they were a fairly light spoke. I'm wondering how they'd hold up under a heavy load? Any thoughts?

[Warin]

Thorn use the DT competition spokes on their touring bikes - including the expedition models.
I've a wheel set with the DT revolution spokes - lighter again.. 'only' broken one spoke on that .. and it was caused by a loose pannier strap . Yes the wheel set gets used with a small load (say 15kg on the rear) and has not drifted nor caused problems. So I have no problem using the DT competition spokes for a fully loaded touring bike.

[silentbutdeadly]

Crankset is the hard one, they are always pricey
Headset shouldn't be too bad, but if you have the $$$ now you may be able to save a bit with some xmas sales...

A 38/24 Shimano M615 Deore 10 speed crankset with hollowtech BB can be had for $81 at c r c at the moment - this'll play fine with SRAM dérailleurs and you won't have to whinge about GXP BBs down the track.

Throw another $70 at a Cane Creek 40 series headset and the job is done.

[thecaptn]

Thorn use the DT competition spokes on their touring bikes - including the expedition models.
I've a wheel set with the DT revolution spokes - lighter again.. 'only' broken one spoke on that .. and it was caused by a loose pannier strap . Yes the wheel set gets used with a small load (say 15kg on the rear) and has not drifted nor caused problems. So I have no problem using the DT competition spokes for a fully loaded touring bike.

Are they a bladed spoke?

[thecaptn]

Crankset is the hard one, they are always pricey
Headset shouldn't be too bad, but if you have the $$$ now you may be able to save a bit with some xmas sales...

A 38/24 Shimano M615 Deore 10 speed crankset with hollowtech BB can be had for $81 at c r c at the moment - this'll play fine with SRAM dérailleurs and you won't have to whinge about GXP BBs down the track.

Throw another $70 at a Cane Creek 40 series headset and the job is done.

I considered a Shimano crankset, deffinately would've been a good option but I found the crankset I was after for a reasonable price(more than 3 times the price of the Deore though and no BB:roll: ) and I have a Cane Creek 40 in my shopping cart at c r c along with deraliers etc that I'm still mucking around with.

[Aushiker]

Crankset is the hard one, they are always pricey
Headset shouldn't be too bad, but if you have the $$$ now you may be able to save a bit with some xmas sales...

A 38/24 Shimano M615 Deore 10 speed crankset with hollowtech BB can be had for $81 at c r c at the moment - this'll play fine with SRAM dérailleurs and you won't have to whinge about GXP BBs down the track.

If there is any intention to run 3" tyres such as the Surly Knard this may not have the clearance necessary ... care needs to be taken with the crankset selection ... last night I was looking at a SRAM 2x10 but it lacks the level of clearance that the Surly O.D. crankset has. The Surly may be overkill but it gives an indication at least as to what spacing is desirable.

Surly ECR by Old Spokes Home, on Flickr

The only build I have found that has a derailleur rear end (never come across so many Rohloff builds ) and does not have a Surly O.D. crankset is one which has a White Industries crankset ($400+ on eBay). The White Industries crankset is also a wider fit similar to the Surly O.D.

Of course if there is never any intention to utilise the ability to run wider tyres it does not matter.

Andrew

[RonK]

If there is any intention to run 3" tyres such as the Surly Knard this may not have the clearance necessary ... care needs to be taken with the crankset selection ... last night I was looking at a SRAM 2x10 but it lacks the level of clearance that the Surly O.D. crankset has. The Surly may be overkill but it gives an indication at least as to what spacing is desirable.

Sram also make a fat bike crankset, or, if you are planning to use flats bars, a fat bike build kit, which seems reasonably priced.

As far as I can tell the difference is a wider BB, with fat bikes using a 100mm shell. So you do need to be sure to get the right BB for the ECR shell.

[Aushiker]

As far as I can tell the difference is a wider BB, with fat bikes using a 100mm shell. So you do need to be sure to get the right BB for the ECR shell.

The ECR uses a 73 mm bottom bracket. The issue is the clearance for the chainring/chain-line with the wider tyres and hence there are some limitations/issues with the crankset choice, e.g., a triple will only work with 2.5˝ tires or smaller.

With normal cranks, wide tires on wide rims can rub the chain when in the lowest, or farthest-inboard, gear combinations. Like our MWOD crank, the O.D. crank doesn’t just add a longer spindle to move the rings outboard. Rather, it does away with the big ring of a standard triple and moves the middle and granny rings to the outer and middle positions. This effectively moves the rings outboard without moving the arms outboard too. The O.D. is a simple, dedicated version of this idea. Neato!

- http://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/od_crank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A possible option is to use just the outer and middle positions of a mountain bike triple; just need to check the specifications (e.g., SRAM specifications are here).

Andrew

[RonK]

Tech Talk - Understanding Drivetrain & Rear Tire Capacity

[Aushiker]

Tech Talk - Understanding Drivetrain & Rear Tire Capacity

Interesting reading no doubt if one was building a fatbike, but having read it I am not sure what the relevance is to a discussion about building up a 29+ frame. Care to highlight what you thought was relevant to this thread in case I missed something?

Andrew

[Warin]

Are they a bladed spoke?

No - both double butted.
DT revolution double butted 2 to 1.5 mm diameter
DT competition double butted 2 to 1.8 mm diameter

DT say the revolution is for cross country (light weight) use only .. I've found them quite strong. I'd think a bladed spoke would have too many stress areas to be strong. I'd not use it on a touring bike. But I'm considering trying them. Maybe the next wheel build for the commuter/shopper?

[RonK]

Interesting reading

That's all.

[rifraf]

I wouldn't sweat too much about a triple crankset myself.
I ran 2.35 Big Apples for a while on my Ogre and was surprised at the large tired 622 inertia which really shows up on the hill work.
I strongly recommend anyone contemplating a large tired 29er do some real world testing to determine if the bikes are really what they want.
If your not used to it, you'll feel like your riding a Clydesdale horse coming from a pure arab race horse.
Theres some serious compromises to consider in "chuck ability" and speed, and thats unladen.
You add to that an IGH and you'll initially wonder what the hell you let yourself in for.
Once I got passed my shock, I've grown to appreciate the staid ride but it took some time.
The hell for leather single track riding you see in forum posts, in my opinion, are not sustained riding for normal beings

[silentbutdeadly]

The only build I have found that has a derailleur rear end (never come across so many Rohloff builds ) and does not have a Surly O.D. crankset is one which has a White Industries crankset ($400+ on eBay). The White Industries crankset is also a wider fit similar to the Surly O.D.

Of course if there is never any intention to utilise the ability to run wider tyres it does not matter.

Andrew

Actually the capacity of the White Industries ENO to suit the wide tyre/wide frame application is dependent almost entirely on the square taper BB it runs on rather than the crank design itself. I run an ENO on my 29er (Siren Twinzer) using the longest White Industries BB (73 x 121) available and the clearance to the rear driveline stay is six fifths of not very much...such that the crank has contacted the amalgamating tape I use on the stay to quieten chain slap...

I'm thinking I should've got a Phil Wood BB which comes in a wider array of lengths and offsets...but the WI BB does work a treat...

[Aushiker]

The hell for leather single track riding you see in forum posts, in my opinion, are not sustained riding for normal beings

For sure but the ECR is not designed for that; every blog I have read suggests that for that style of riding go the Krampus. On my last tour on the dirt road sections, 10 km/h was not unusual due to being shaken to death with the corrugations. I am interested in the Surly Knards for getting a better ride on these sorts of tours; one I can enjoy

Andrew

[Aushiker]

The only build I have found that has a derailleur rear end (never come across so many Rohloff builds ) and does not have a Surly O.D. crankset is one which has a White Industries crankset ($400+ on eBay). The White Industries crankset is also a wider fit similar to the Surly O.D.

Of course if there is never any intention to utilise the ability to run wider tyres it does not matter.

Andrew

Actually the capacity of the White Industries ENO to suit the wide tyre/wide frame application is dependent almost entirely on the square taper BB it runs on rather than the crank design itself. I run an ENO on my 29er (Siren Twinzer) using the longest White Industries BB (73 x 121) available and the clearance to the rear driveline stay is six fifths of not very much...such that the crank has contacted the amalgamating tape I use on the stay to quieten chain slap...

Ah okay. I was going with what White Industries say on their website ...

The ENO arms are designed with a wider Q factor that is needed for mountain and cross bikes engineered with wider chain stays . The Q factor allows enough clearance between the crank arm and the wider stays designed into the frame of the bike for tire clearance.

and that it was used in the build I got the photo of. Mind you the blogger didn't provide much details so I without a doubt read more into it.

I think I can cross it off my short list then

Andrew

[Aushiker]

Andrew

[RonK]

The hell for leather single track riding you see in forum posts, in my opinion, are not sustained riding for normal beings

For sure but the ECR is not designed for that; every blog I have read suggests that for that style of riding go the Krampus. On my last tour on the dirt road sections, 10 km/h was not unusual due to being shaken to death with the corrugations. I am interested in the Surly Knards for getting a better ride on these sorts of tours; one I can enjoy

As Aidan mentioned in the 29er thread, these 2" tyres are not just slow, they are hard work, and with a 29er+ and even wider tyres, if your tour has mixed surfaces they could significantly shorten your touring range. They are not called Knards without reason.

Understand your thinking but fear they may be a compromise too far. A 29er would give a more comfortable ride fitted with 2.3" tyres for predominantly dirt tours and could still be fitted with something faster for more mixed surfaces.

However if you are convinced a 29er+ is the way to go, you should also have a look at the Jones 29er+. Yes it cost more but you get an EBB and vertical dropouts, so you can go either hub or derailleur gears with much simpler and tidier dropouts. And a truss fork to absorb road shocks. Worth consideration in my book.

[singlespeedscott]

Excuse my ignorance but where in Australia would you need such a huge wheel for touring?